To the AOA
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To the AOA
The entire AOA membership would like to know what in fact is going on.
Dragonair receives effectively (all facets of their deal included) 19%
Cathay gets C scale and 2 % after giving away rostering, freighter.
Whats next, we have to pay for our uniforms?
Dragonair Local FO's receive $12000 "special allowance" for housing our local guys FO's get nothing.
WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT IT?
We all want to know, as we pay your salaries and expense accounts down there in TST.
We are sick of reading fancy little comparisons of our conditions to other world carriers - take a look outside "Severe Pollution level" . Is this another little stall tactic?, because we are sick of it.
What steps are you taking? (and don't say this is a period of healing and reparation)
Why isn't an EGM being planned in light of these incredible industrial slaps in the face?
You are going to start losing members very shortly which is precisely what they want. Don't allow this to happen.
In the words of Chopper Read "HARDEN THE F&*^ UP" and DO SOMETHING!
Let us know what is going on, remember we pay your salaries.
I fully support the AOA and any course of action it takes as long as it has a set of balls attached to it.
We cannot lie down and cop this one enough is enough.
Dragonair receives effectively (all facets of their deal included) 19%
Cathay gets C scale and 2 % after giving away rostering, freighter.
Whats next, we have to pay for our uniforms?
Dragonair Local FO's receive $12000 "special allowance" for housing our local guys FO's get nothing.
WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT IT?
We all want to know, as we pay your salaries and expense accounts down there in TST.
We are sick of reading fancy little comparisons of our conditions to other world carriers - take a look outside "Severe Pollution level" . Is this another little stall tactic?, because we are sick of it.
What steps are you taking? (and don't say this is a period of healing and reparation)
Why isn't an EGM being planned in light of these incredible industrial slaps in the face?
You are going to start losing members very shortly which is precisely what they want. Don't allow this to happen.
In the words of Chopper Read "HARDEN THE F&*^ UP" and DO SOMETHING!
Let us know what is going on, remember we pay your salaries.
I fully support the AOA and any course of action it takes as long as it has a set of balls attached to it.
We cannot lie down and cop this one enough is enough.
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Well said.
I've already pointed out the developments on locals getting housing at KA to JF, only to be met with a shrug of the shoulders and "it'll never happen".
I pay my dues. I believe in the union. Just start showing some representation!
I've already pointed out the developments on locals getting housing at KA to JF, only to be met with a shrug of the shoulders and "it'll never happen".
I pay my dues. I believe in the union. Just start showing some representation!
katana,
"I pay my dues."
Well so do all the GC members but, remember, you don't pay them a cent.
Why don't you pop into the office and offer to help out with anything?
I suppose its easier mouthing off on PPRuNe!!!
"I pay my dues."
Well so do all the GC members but, remember, you don't pay them a cent.
Why don't you pop into the office and offer to help out with anything?
I suppose its easier mouthing off on PPRuNe!!!
Join Date: Jul 2007
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I have to ask, What the 
do the AOA do? Their name is attached to a lot of things, but correct me if i'm wrong, isn't the establishment gonna do what they want anyway? That's seems to be the case recently. The AOA has no real sway do they. Democracy ROCKS!!!
do the AOA do? Their name is attached to a lot of things, but correct me if i'm wrong, isn't the establishment gonna do what they want anyway? That's seems to be the case recently. The AOA has no real sway do they. Democracy ROCKS!!!
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"The AOA has no real sway do they"
No, they don't. And the real reason they don't is because of the members, NOT the GC.
Look at last week's successful action by the girls. In a few short weeks they managed to get the company to actually change its mind and give way on some stuff.
Why can they do it, but we cannot? Well, I believe that the company is actually scared of the girls, but not us. Generalising in a big way: average age of the cabin attendants is maybe 25 and few of them (if any) are earning their family's main wage: in other words, they are working for beer money and could probably get another job on similar conditions very easily; hence they are not too worried about getting fired and therefore not too worried about going on strike - and the company knows this!
So how do we grow the same set of blls that our girls seem to have?
No, they don't. And the real reason they don't is because of the members, NOT the GC.
Look at last week's successful action by the girls. In a few short weeks they managed to get the company to actually change its mind and give way on some stuff.
Why can they do it, but we cannot? Well, I believe that the company is actually scared of the girls, but not us. Generalising in a big way: average age of the cabin attendants is maybe 25 and few of them (if any) are earning their family's main wage: in other words, they are working for beer money and could probably get another job on similar conditions very easily; hence they are not too worried about getting fired and therefore not too worried about going on strike - and the company knows this!
So how do we grow the same set of blls that our girls seem to have?
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I was at first willing to give the AOA the benefit of the doubt. Now, there is little doubt to me that the GC and its leader are completely out of their tree.
I am a member, and I desperately want the AOA to be effective but I am just stunned at the lack of progress on issues like these:
- SO "assessment" sham;
- bypass of Boeing SOs by DEFOs;
- imposition of COS 08;
- lack of any wage adjustment to reflect cost of living increases, industry improvements, home country exchange rates, etc.;
- freighter flying
- likely imposition of 3-man ULR; etc.
I have heard from GC members themselves about ST's unwillingness to be "confrontational."
Any student of labour relations would know that the labour-management relationship must be confrontational to an extent. Both parties have vastly differing objectives. In my opinion, you can't blame management for wanting to continuously improve the bottom line. That is what they were hired to do and one would expect nothing less. I am glad that I work for a company that is focussed on profitability. However, it is the union's job to work to ensure that our conditions of service are not eroded in this process. A certain amount of friction is normal, and I am sure that CX management understands this concept. In fact, I'm sure that they, savvy as they are in the ways of industrial relations, must be relishing the current absurd situation, where they can impose any reduction on conditions of service on us knowing that the extent of the union's actions will be a letter to its members justifying the move.
So what happens now? I’m afraid that continued inaction by the union can only result in a further erosion in its numbers... Conversely, perhaps a little action might actually strengthen the union….?
http://www.amazon.com/Building-Effec..._sim_b_title_1
I am a member, and I desperately want the AOA to be effective but I am just stunned at the lack of progress on issues like these:
- SO "assessment" sham;
- bypass of Boeing SOs by DEFOs;
- imposition of COS 08;
- lack of any wage adjustment to reflect cost of living increases, industry improvements, home country exchange rates, etc.;
- freighter flying
- likely imposition of 3-man ULR; etc.
I have heard from GC members themselves about ST's unwillingness to be "confrontational."
Any student of labour relations would know that the labour-management relationship must be confrontational to an extent. Both parties have vastly differing objectives. In my opinion, you can't blame management for wanting to continuously improve the bottom line. That is what they were hired to do and one would expect nothing less. I am glad that I work for a company that is focussed on profitability. However, it is the union's job to work to ensure that our conditions of service are not eroded in this process. A certain amount of friction is normal, and I am sure that CX management understands this concept. In fact, I'm sure that they, savvy as they are in the ways of industrial relations, must be relishing the current absurd situation, where they can impose any reduction on conditions of service on us knowing that the extent of the union's actions will be a letter to its members justifying the move.
So what happens now? I’m afraid that continued inaction by the union can only result in a further erosion in its numbers... Conversely, perhaps a little action might actually strengthen the union….?
http://www.amazon.com/Building-Effec..._sim_b_title_1
betaboy,
With your lack of understanding of Hong Kong labour Laws (or lack of them) I suggest you write to, visit or ring the AOA office with your proposals.
The "current absurd" situation you refer to is the standard HK industrial labour relations climate. When we have a legally strong position we act. If we don't have that a legal objection is pointless (wastes members money).
Merry Christmas
With your lack of understanding of Hong Kong labour Laws (or lack of them) I suggest you write to, visit or ring the AOA office with your proposals.
The "current absurd" situation you refer to is the standard HK industrial labour relations climate. When we have a legally strong position we act. If we don't have that a legal objection is pointless (wastes members money).
Merry Christmas
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And so how do you explain the recent successes of the FAU and DPA? The wins had nothing to do with legal gymnastics.
Are you suggesting sitting and doing nothing (or next to nothing) is the best solution? Industrial relations is like a game. You have to play to win. Management is playing. Why aren't we?
As an aside, I agree with your understanding of the HK legal system. Although I believe our labour laws are weak, HK contract law isn't. Just ask the leaders of the FAU. And just read this: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=305579. We do have a legal leg to stand on. In fact, we have many legs...
Are you suggesting sitting and doing nothing (or next to nothing) is the best solution? Industrial relations is like a game. You have to play to win. Management is playing. Why aren't we?
As an aside, I agree with your understanding of the HK legal system. Although I believe our labour laws are weak, HK contract law isn't. Just ask the leaders of the FAU. And just read this: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=305579. We do have a legal leg to stand on. In fact, we have many legs...
Last edited by betaboy; 23rd Dec 2007 at 12:28.
betaboy
The fact that they have about 80% representation and we have about 55% if that wouldn’t have anything to do with it would it? A union or associations power is derived directly from its members. The smaller the percentage of the membership, the smaller that power.
And so how do you explain the recent successes of the FAU and DPA? The wins had nothing to do with legal gymnastics.
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Legals vs Morals
The AOA leadership appears to draw a distinction between what it feels it can 'legally' challenge, as opposed to what should be opposed on 'moral' grounds.
I am sure that Dragon aircrew, and our own cabincrew here at Cathay, were being manipulated by management 'correctly' in legal terms, but their associations fought their battle on clear moral grounds - and won. They won through demonstration, publicity, contract compliance and even resignation. Not through court action.
We Cathay aircrew, however, in having our association observe the niceties of 'modern industrial negotiation practices' have seen, among other things; an imposition of less pay under CoS08 for DEFO New Joiners from January 2008; the demise of FACA interpreted in the Company's best interests; a pitiful imposed payrise; unfettered age 65 retirement increase at the Company's discretion...
All this at a time of unprecedented expansion in the airline industry, consequent pressure on pilot recruitment, and improvement in aircrew conditions of service elsewhere.
If this is what the AOA has 'achieved' for the membership at this time, what can we expect from such a compliant AOA executive in an industry downturn?
Excuse me if I fail to see any upside for the membership in the AOA's present strategy.
I am sure that Dragon aircrew, and our own cabincrew here at Cathay, were being manipulated by management 'correctly' in legal terms, but their associations fought their battle on clear moral grounds - and won. They won through demonstration, publicity, contract compliance and even resignation. Not through court action.
We Cathay aircrew, however, in having our association observe the niceties of 'modern industrial negotiation practices' have seen, among other things; an imposition of less pay under CoS08 for DEFO New Joiners from January 2008; the demise of FACA interpreted in the Company's best interests; a pitiful imposed payrise; unfettered age 65 retirement increase at the Company's discretion...
All this at a time of unprecedented expansion in the airline industry, consequent pressure on pilot recruitment, and improvement in aircrew conditions of service elsewhere.
If this is what the AOA has 'achieved' for the membership at this time, what can we expect from such a compliant AOA executive in an industry downturn?
Excuse me if I fail to see any upside for the membership in the AOA's present strategy.
For Co-pay I would say that it was undoubtedly the LSU complaints that surprised CX and led to the slight change. The FAU were noisy and obviously helped a little but would not have changed it alone. Why were we not affected by Co-pay-because our contracts prevented it applying to FOPS. Even so the total lack of consultation is not acceptable.
The DPA's success was almost totally down to the resignation rate. CC may have been the icing on the cake but it wasn't the main reason.
B-scaler is doing his best on our behalf to dissuade people from joining CX, perhaps that and the resignations will be enough to help us.
Otherwise B-Scaler and others will have to give up enough time to stand for the GC if they are so sure they could do a better job.
I won't be leaving the AOA and shouting abuse from the sidelines.
The DPA's success was almost totally down to the resignation rate. CC may have been the icing on the cake but it wasn't the main reason.
B-scaler is doing his best on our behalf to dissuade people from joining CX, perhaps that and the resignations will be enough to help us.
Otherwise B-Scaler and others will have to give up enough time to stand for the GC if they are so sure they could do a better job.
I won't be leaving the AOA and shouting abuse from the sidelines.
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Just to be clear...
Just to be clear, in case anyone misinterprets your post BusyB...
- I am a current AOA member and have not left the AOA at any time since I joined. I am shouting from within the boundaries, not beyond, and I would like to think that at least some of the 'abuse' as you call it, is constructive abuse;
- you may feel that I am doing my best to dissuade people from joining Cathay, but I would rather characterise it as educating rather than dissuading. If prospective new joiners are educated as to the issues facing aircrew here and still feel inclined to join then so be it, but forewarned is forearmed. Correct me if I am wrong, but the AOA itself doesn't seem to be doing anything along these lines...
Last edited by BScaler; 24th Dec 2007 at 13:48. Reason: spelling
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Spot on Bscaler,
I would never let anyone i know join here without an absolute upto date date set of facts as to exactly what happens around here.
I have to say that as long as we have 5-6 'mini airlines', that's to say groups of people with completely different ideas as to whats good and whats not, then AOA or not, nothing is gonna get achieved. If you look at BA, Virgin, Air France, or most other big carriers, the crews all fight together as one, whereas here everybody is too busy squabbling with each other to get anything done. I think the cabin crew set a fine example of 'teamwork' in this regard and leave us looking like idiots really.
The news about this dump is spreading, and i won't have to worry about anybody i know joining. Most of them say they wouldn't touch it with a barge pole!
I would never let anyone i know join here without an absolute upto date date set of facts as to exactly what happens around here.
I have to say that as long as we have 5-6 'mini airlines', that's to say groups of people with completely different ideas as to whats good and whats not, then AOA or not, nothing is gonna get achieved. If you look at BA, Virgin, Air France, or most other big carriers, the crews all fight together as one, whereas here everybody is too busy squabbling with each other to get anything done. I think the cabin crew set a fine example of 'teamwork' in this regard and leave us looking like idiots really.
The news about this dump is spreading, and i won't have to worry about anybody i know joining. Most of them say they wouldn't touch it with a barge pole!
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Well, instead of whining about the 45% of pilot body not paying their dues, why doesn't the AOA be more constructive and think about how they could win the heart of these people? As I'm sure majority of them, if not all, are quite willing to join if the AOA actually do what they're supposed to do.
I support the idea of union, I just don't support the idea of a non-supporting (put in a very nice way already) union. If you want my dues, then make sure I get what I'm paying for. Don't gimme the BS of "being a pilot you should support the pilot body" cause I don't really see that going the other way at all. Heck, I'm more willing to join the DPA and have them represent me cause I know they actually make an effort in getting the job done.
I support the idea of union, I just don't support the idea of a non-supporting (put in a very nice way already) union. If you want my dues, then make sure I get what I'm paying for. Don't gimme the BS of "being a pilot you should support the pilot body" cause I don't really see that going the other way at all. Heck, I'm more willing to join the DPA and have them represent me cause I know they actually make an effort in getting the job done.
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Well, instead of whining about the 45% of pilot body not paying their dues, why doesn't the AOA be more constructive and think about how they could win the heart of these people? As I'm sure majority of them, if not all, are quite willing to join if the AOA actually do what they're supposed to do.
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Write to the AOA
For all the talk of letters to the AOA going unnoticed and unactioned, it is still the best avenue, (short of expressing yourself in a vote), for conveying the feelings of individual members. The AOA is a representative body and must carry out the wishes of the majority of the membership.
I would encourage everyone, even those not currently an AOA member, to write to the association spelling out the action that you would personally be willing to take, and that you deem appropriate, in these current circumstances.
Perhaps, as a non-member, there may be some tangible action the AOA could take at this time that would persuade you to apply to join - please communicate this to the AOA. They may read Pprune, but they can't be persuaded to take action on anonymous threads.
Be it contract compliance, something stronger, or even support of the status quo, I would urge anyone reading this, and able to invest a few seconds writing an email to the AOA GC at [email protected] to do so. Now.
Not to do so will be tantamount to allowing yourselves to be led by the nose along our current path.
I would encourage everyone, even those not currently an AOA member, to write to the association spelling out the action that you would personally be willing to take, and that you deem appropriate, in these current circumstances.
Perhaps, as a non-member, there may be some tangible action the AOA could take at this time that would persuade you to apply to join - please communicate this to the AOA. They may read Pprune, but they can't be persuaded to take action on anonymous threads.
Be it contract compliance, something stronger, or even support of the status quo, I would urge anyone reading this, and able to invest a few seconds writing an email to the AOA GC at [email protected] to do so. Now.
Not to do so will be tantamount to allowing yourselves to be led by the nose along our current path.
