Hong Kong Airlines - more resignations?
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Hong Kong Airlines - more resignations?
Well... i hear another HKA F/O is off... and a couple more to follow (???)
Sure, a number of F/O’s recently tried to jump ship to Oasis... only to find themselves dog-paddling back to HKA (sadly), for reasons already discussed in previous threads. Perhaps this gave the Upper Management at HKA the false impression that they had them by the ‘short and curly’s’. Little do they realise the resilience and determination of the modern, western-minded airline pilot (generally speaking of course) to improve their working conditions/career prospects.
Perhaps the mass exodus, as previously alluded to in previous posts, isn’t imminent... but from several accounts, certainly the slow trickle of attrition is definitely present. Will HKA become a ‘training school’ for low-jet time pilots, as previously suggested?
Why oh why does the upper management of HKA fail to realise that they are not dealing with local pilots on the mainland? (Before there are howls and cries of “racism”, i think 4 years in Asia allow me to refer to the cultural differences in mindset. No disrespect intended to my Chinese brethren.)
Why can’t HKA upper management accept proven business ideology of modern (western) times that state employee satisfaction will lead to greater success and overall prosperity... albeit with lower profit margins in the interim?
The company has several highly experienced middle managers (not known personally... but by reputation and word of mouth – the two i know of anyway) who apparently would be very capable of really taking the company forward... in a way that would result in happier employees across the board... more growth and development... and quite possibly a far more successful airline than anyone can conceive right now... but their hands are tied by upper management.
I presume upper management are highly experienced in their own regard (some, all or most from a major mainland Chinese carrier)... but how are they in dealing with westerners... and tackling a western market? Surely a shared understanding of various cultures is vital in this business? Practices and policies that make for a highly successful airline in mainland China may not successfully apply in a more western market (something to consider with the talk of long-haul operations... and more specifically with a high proportion of western flight crew).
Certainly airlines, like most commercial enterprises, are driven by the all mighty dollar. That, I suppose, is the world we live in... but at the risk of sounding too ‘Jerry Maguire’, wouldn’t it behove employers and employees alike if a fairer, more empathetic (on both sides) and less egotistical attitude was utilised.
Most astoundingly... why can’t HKA upper management, who culturally (apparently) are so concerned with image, perception and the idea of ‘saving face’, see that their current attitude only serves to embarrass them and the company... which has developed a poor reputation (managerially speaking) even half-way around the globe? Do they not care how the ‘western eye’ perceives them?
If they don’t care... fair enough... but considering: the company needing experienced ‘foreign’ pilots (and having difficulty acquiring them)... looking at tackling a western market (eventually)... and China's desire to be an intimate part of global trade and development... isn’t this counterproductive? Does it not embarrass them to be seen as archaic and ‘old world order’? Strong-arm tactics are so passé.
Does upper management at HKA realise what’s actually happening beyond their golden walls? The aviation community at large tend to raise eyebrows and speak in sympathetic tones about a company that many of us don’t see developing very far in the long-term... and certainly not becoming a major player in global/Asian aviation circles. Does HKA management not see this? Are they not concerned at the general perception of the company?
Certainly (to paraphrase Lincoln), “you can’t ‘please’ all of the people all of the time”... but surely a fairer, two-way attitude would go a long way. (Try) to look after your crew... and they’ll look after you. True loyalty is earned, not enforced or demanded (ahem... a concept even employers in this part of the world would do well to note).
Undoubtedly, HKA is not the only airline to have its battles between management and pilots. One need only glance at the greater proportion of posts from disgruntled/disappointed/ (and let’s face it folks... in some cases...) whingeing CX, EK, JQ and QF pilots (to name a few)... but does that make it alright?
C’mon HKA upper management. Grow a pair... and try a different tact... spend some money... and let your middle management do what they were hired to do. You may be pleasantly surprised.
You may just find you’ll stop being considered a small-minded, short-sighted, slightly comical operator in HK aviation. Don’t know what i mean? Just read a few posts re: 51 airbuses, command upgrades, housing (you-got-to-be-kidding) allowances, overnight allowances, lack of medical, lack of income protection, long-haul ops, B787’s ...etc...etc...etc... need i go on?
Those of us outside HK who have actually heard of you (thanks to ex-colleagues and friends), do wish you well...sincerely... but aren't holding much hope.
My viewpoint is based on second-hand information, albeit from trustworthy sources... and of course, good ol’ pprune... so please forgive any errors or misconceptions. Ultimately, i don’t really care what the final outcome is. I have my own frustrations and battles to worry about. Just a few pennies really... but what the hell do i know?
Good luck (to all concerned).
Sure, a number of F/O’s recently tried to jump ship to Oasis... only to find themselves dog-paddling back to HKA (sadly), for reasons already discussed in previous threads. Perhaps this gave the Upper Management at HKA the false impression that they had them by the ‘short and curly’s’. Little do they realise the resilience and determination of the modern, western-minded airline pilot (generally speaking of course) to improve their working conditions/career prospects.
Perhaps the mass exodus, as previously alluded to in previous posts, isn’t imminent... but from several accounts, certainly the slow trickle of attrition is definitely present. Will HKA become a ‘training school’ for low-jet time pilots, as previously suggested?
Why oh why does the upper management of HKA fail to realise that they are not dealing with local pilots on the mainland? (Before there are howls and cries of “racism”, i think 4 years in Asia allow me to refer to the cultural differences in mindset. No disrespect intended to my Chinese brethren.)
Why can’t HKA upper management accept proven business ideology of modern (western) times that state employee satisfaction will lead to greater success and overall prosperity... albeit with lower profit margins in the interim?
The company has several highly experienced middle managers (not known personally... but by reputation and word of mouth – the two i know of anyway) who apparently would be very capable of really taking the company forward... in a way that would result in happier employees across the board... more growth and development... and quite possibly a far more successful airline than anyone can conceive right now... but their hands are tied by upper management.
I presume upper management are highly experienced in their own regard (some, all or most from a major mainland Chinese carrier)... but how are they in dealing with westerners... and tackling a western market? Surely a shared understanding of various cultures is vital in this business? Practices and policies that make for a highly successful airline in mainland China may not successfully apply in a more western market (something to consider with the talk of long-haul operations... and more specifically with a high proportion of western flight crew).
Certainly airlines, like most commercial enterprises, are driven by the all mighty dollar. That, I suppose, is the world we live in... but at the risk of sounding too ‘Jerry Maguire’, wouldn’t it behove employers and employees alike if a fairer, more empathetic (on both sides) and less egotistical attitude was utilised.
Most astoundingly... why can’t HKA upper management, who culturally (apparently) are so concerned with image, perception and the idea of ‘saving face’, see that their current attitude only serves to embarrass them and the company... which has developed a poor reputation (managerially speaking) even half-way around the globe? Do they not care how the ‘western eye’ perceives them?
If they don’t care... fair enough... but considering: the company needing experienced ‘foreign’ pilots (and having difficulty acquiring them)... looking at tackling a western market (eventually)... and China's desire to be an intimate part of global trade and development... isn’t this counterproductive? Does it not embarrass them to be seen as archaic and ‘old world order’? Strong-arm tactics are so passé.
Does upper management at HKA realise what’s actually happening beyond their golden walls? The aviation community at large tend to raise eyebrows and speak in sympathetic tones about a company that many of us don’t see developing very far in the long-term... and certainly not becoming a major player in global/Asian aviation circles. Does HKA management not see this? Are they not concerned at the general perception of the company?
Certainly (to paraphrase Lincoln), “you can’t ‘please’ all of the people all of the time”... but surely a fairer, two-way attitude would go a long way. (Try) to look after your crew... and they’ll look after you. True loyalty is earned, not enforced or demanded (ahem... a concept even employers in this part of the world would do well to note).
Undoubtedly, HKA is not the only airline to have its battles between management and pilots. One need only glance at the greater proportion of posts from disgruntled/disappointed/ (and let’s face it folks... in some cases...) whingeing CX, EK, JQ and QF pilots (to name a few)... but does that make it alright?
C’mon HKA upper management. Grow a pair... and try a different tact... spend some money... and let your middle management do what they were hired to do. You may be pleasantly surprised.
You may just find you’ll stop being considered a small-minded, short-sighted, slightly comical operator in HK aviation. Don’t know what i mean? Just read a few posts re: 51 airbuses, command upgrades, housing (you-got-to-be-kidding) allowances, overnight allowances, lack of medical, lack of income protection, long-haul ops, B787’s ...etc...etc...etc... need i go on?
Those of us outside HK who have actually heard of you (thanks to ex-colleagues and friends), do wish you well...sincerely... but aren't holding much hope.
My viewpoint is based on second-hand information, albeit from trustworthy sources... and of course, good ol’ pprune... so please forgive any errors or misconceptions. Ultimately, i don’t really care what the final outcome is. I have my own frustrations and battles to worry about. Just a few pennies really... but what the hell do i know?
Good luck (to all concerned).
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Why can’t HKA upper management accept proven business ideology of modern (western) times that state employee satisfaction will lead to greater success and overall prosperity... albeit with lower profit margins in the interim?
Corporate greed is all arround, in different degrees, but it is all the same ****t. You are gonna need to put up with it no matter where you go. It is a conflict of interest for managers to act any other way, just as it is for us. It is a constant tug of war in which one side wins only temporarily, but only takes a little time to return to the middle. The middle is determined by the state of the economy and the general mindset.
Sadly, we are our worst enemy, which I'm sure you already knew. You and I might say piss-off to a company that pays ****t and is especially greedy, but trust me, there is always someone standing right behind us saying "I'll take it". They might be coming from a CFI job or towing banners and to them it is a step up.
One man's garbage is another man's treasure. Sad but true.
That is why it is more effective to be united in enforcing contract compliance when your management lot gets particularly greedy. It is definetely more effective than voting with your feet, which actually saves the company money. 
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From ATWonline
Hong Kong Airlines finalized its order for 30 A320 family aircraft, 20 A330s and one ACJ initially announced at the Paris Air Show. Engine choice has not been finalized, Airbus said.
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Hong Kong Airlines seals Airbus deal at Asian Aerospace
12 September 2007Hong Kong Airlines has signed a firm contract with Airbus for 30 A320 Family aircraft, 20 A330s and one ACJ, herewith firming up an initial commitment announced at Le Bourget Airshow in Paris in June. Engine choices have yet to be finalised.
does it meant Boeing abandoned by HKA?
12 September 2007Hong Kong Airlines has signed a firm contract with Airbus for 30 A320 Family aircraft, 20 A330s and one ACJ, herewith firming up an initial commitment announced at Le Bourget Airshow in Paris in June. Engine choices have yet to be finalised.
does it meant Boeing abandoned by HKA?
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They're having trouble getting/keeping people on current conditions! You think offering less will work better?
And there's a little matter of the current COS (agreed Conditions of Service) which might be a stumbling block to that.
And there's a little matter of the current COS (agreed Conditions of Service) which might be a stumbling block to that.
Now I heard that CX couldn't get pilots for their Oz freighter bases a while back. So what did they do? They lowered the salary to attract a less qualified applicant!
You cant argue against it if it isn't logic.
KA is having problems attracting and retaining pilots, so what do they do?
Lower the salary for the same job.
You cant argue against it if it isn't logic.
KA is having problems attracting and retaining pilots, so what do they do?
Lower the salary for the same job.
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I think you'll find the Airbus order is Hainans, HKA could get 50, 5, or none of them, and yeh, who the fcuk is going to fly them 
The pilot shortage is only going to get worse, not better
Wonder how many Aussie/kiwi Gwailos ( sorry about spelling ) will hang around when they work out they are getting less than a Virgin Blu driver, yes thats including the
Oz tax, and considering the hsng allowance wont cover a 1 bedder in Tung Chung, why would you stay? 
The pilot shortage is only going to get worse, not better
Wonder how many Aussie/kiwi Gwailos ( sorry about spelling ) will hang around when they work out they are getting less than a Virgin Blu driver, yes thats including the
Oz tax, and considering the hsng allowance wont cover a 1 bedder in Tung Chung, why would you stay?
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shot nancy and phooey
Not strickly correct.
In the withdrawn 'offer' there was no pay rise for Aussie based freighter pilots in the first year cause it would have put their salaries above the new UFO scale.
So it wasn't a pay cut - they were just offering freighter salary for flying pax aircraft - about $92K a year.
phooey
what I find interesting was that when i joined it was a payrise (300%) to join CX from my air force job. Now whether you join as an SO in hkg or a DEFO on the proposed UFO payscales you are taking a paycut in salary from 10% -30%. Additionally, an ex RAAF pilot joining as a DEFO/UFO loses some housing assistance and a superior provident fund.
How times have changed!
In the withdrawn 'offer' there was no pay rise for Aussie based freighter pilots in the first year cause it would have put their salaries above the new UFO scale.
So it wasn't a pay cut - they were just offering freighter salary for flying pax aircraft - about $92K a year.
phooey
what I find interesting was that when i joined it was a payrise (300%) to join CX from my air force job. Now whether you join as an SO in hkg or a DEFO on the proposed UFO payscales you are taking a paycut in salary from 10% -30%. Additionally, an ex RAAF pilot joining as a DEFO/UFO loses some housing assistance and a superior provident fund.
How times have changed!
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HK Airlines : Rapid command from low time. Great for Jet hour building and moving on, or getting that jet command
Do the figures and I dont think it will be that " rapid ", they don't even have upgrade approval yet, 2 A/C delayed 'til next year, large backlog of existing effo's promised commands, 6 months just to CTL, etc etc.
I think Rapid might be 3-4 years ( MAYBE 2 1/2 if real lucky ), depending on growth which is a big " If " not necessarily when.
Of course, once you attain the lofty heights of HKA skipper, you can enjoy a package ( depending on if you have kids or not, and where you chose to live ) somewhere between 7 and 37K a month LESS than a Dragon F/O
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near crash
the Shenzhen refueler told me's HKA have sacked there CAD inspector, apparnetly he just about drove one of there new 737-800 in to the big hill on take off few months ago......big cover up 
Promoted...?!
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the rats will leave the ship
Yep its a sinking ship alright.........and too much hot air from manangement. the best chance they had was getting Zeb and hickory stick back, and even they changed there minds.... . fifty airbuses my ass.They couldn't even operate a ferry to tsuen wan on schedule. According to the tranvestite by the wan chai kebab stall, the goings on between HK airlines and CAD are political! can u believe that....politics at CLK! I am off to fenicks to for quiet beer and improve my colombian.
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Gotta admit, the new paint job looks nice.
Heard a rumour the Airbus order was firmed up, but lets not get too excited, we all know that 1 or 51 of those 'buses could end up at Hainan.
Does'nt matter where they end up, if things don't get better around here, there will be no bugger around to fly them
Heard a rumour the Airbus order was firmed up, but lets not get too excited, we all know that 1 or 51 of those 'buses could end up at Hainan.
Does'nt matter where they end up, if things don't get better around here, there will be no bugger around to fly them
"According to the tranvestite by the wan chai kebab stall, " ????
I just thought she was a cute tall girl with a husky voice and firm hand shake.... Then again, that Adams Apple did look a bit Manish.....
b.
I just thought she was a cute tall girl with a husky voice and firm hand shake.... Then again, that Adams Apple did look a bit Manish.....
b.