Technical Question for CX crew
Joined: Apr 2007
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From: flagrant arbour
Do you mean RKPK (Busan/Gimhae INTL)?
If so, Dragonair started flying there this year in the A320. Cat 'C' Airport for the cclg to 18R, requiring specific sim trng. Capt only appch and Co mins of 2000'/6km.
A few exciting moments have been reported due to windshear & close terrain proximity.
Korea...sparkling!
If so, Dragonair started flying there this year in the A320. Cat 'C' Airport for the cclg to 18R, requiring specific sim trng. Capt only appch and Co mins of 2000'/6km.
A few exciting moments have been reported due to windshear & close terrain proximity.
Korea...sparkling!
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 2,997
Likes: 35
From: Oztrailia
If we carry the charts for that Airport then CX will have a port page as well, if I need to divert into that airport then I will look at the charts. If the WX is suitable for a CX circle to land then what is the big deal? doesn't require superman does it? IF there is anything special then CX would mention it on the Port Page.
Settle down bud.
Settle down bud.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 1999
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My appologies. My dislexia kicked in.
I meant RKPK. Busan.
Pollution IV.
Dragonair do operate there in the 320 and about to be the 330. This is what prompted my investigation. Many airlines prohibit circling into this airport and I was told CX was one such airline. Many enlightened airlines prohibit circling anywhere but such progressiveness is a long way from arriving in HKG because of attitudes held by people like . . .
ACMS,
. . . give it the spurs cowboy.
I meant RKPK. Busan.
Pollution IV.
Dragonair do operate there in the 320 and about to be the 330. This is what prompted my investigation. Many airlines prohibit circling into this airport and I was told CX was one such airline. Many enlightened airlines prohibit circling anywhere but such progressiveness is a long way from arriving in HKG because of attitudes held by people like . . .
ACMS,
. . . give it the spurs cowboy.
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 1,374
Likes: 285
From: Moved beyond
RKPK (Busan) is not currently listed in the CX Operations Manual, meaning it's not categorised for use and we don't carry the charts. From that you can assume we can't land there except in a dire emergency.
Hope that answers the question!
Hope that answers the question!
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 424
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From: Everywhere
CX Flight operations management is so arrogant. They still have stuff left over from the Catalina days.
We are still allowed to circle in FUK which only gives you 2.3 miles protection. It is quite hard to maneuver a wide body aircraft within that area, but I guess Cathay Pacific invented aviation.
China Airlines (B767) was circling in Busan. Chinese Minimums have a 5.02 nm radius for protection. Korea minimums were at that time 2.3 nm radius. I can only assume that the Captain thought he was protected to 5.02 nm. Well, he hit the back side of the hill on final about 5 nm on the extended center line to runway 18. It’s over.
We don’t circle that often and it is an unusual maneuver and we don’t practice cranking and banking a wide body aircraft, nor should we. It just too big to be messing around within 2.3nm of the airport with unfavorable wind close to the ground and terrain all around. Most airlines don’t allow it, but I guess CX pilots are the best pilots in the world, see their latest conditions.
I have only heard of one “Caution Terrain” in FUK where the winds were at his back on base and overshot the center line a bit. Remarks were “continue”. Well……………..I try to use my judgment not to let things happen where I can get into trouble. It’s not worth it.
My advise, be careful in Busan and know where that hill is at. If you are circling in winter at night in a snowstorm, get out of there, all the links are coming together for an accident.
Not worth saying “If I only had that moment back”. Don’t let it happen.
Or maybe I am just a !!!!e pilot? You decide.
Good luck with it.
We are still allowed to circle in FUK which only gives you 2.3 miles protection. It is quite hard to maneuver a wide body aircraft within that area, but I guess Cathay Pacific invented aviation.
China Airlines (B767) was circling in Busan. Chinese Minimums have a 5.02 nm radius for protection. Korea minimums were at that time 2.3 nm radius. I can only assume that the Captain thought he was protected to 5.02 nm. Well, he hit the back side of the hill on final about 5 nm on the extended center line to runway 18. It’s over.
We don’t circle that often and it is an unusual maneuver and we don’t practice cranking and banking a wide body aircraft, nor should we. It just too big to be messing around within 2.3nm of the airport with unfavorable wind close to the ground and terrain all around. Most airlines don’t allow it, but I guess CX pilots are the best pilots in the world, see their latest conditions.
I have only heard of one “Caution Terrain” in FUK where the winds were at his back on base and overshot the center line a bit. Remarks were “continue”. Well……………..I try to use my judgment not to let things happen where I can get into trouble. It’s not worth it.
My advise, be careful in Busan and know where that hill is at. If you are circling in winter at night in a snowstorm, get out of there, all the links are coming together for an accident.
Not worth saying “If I only had that moment back”. Don’t let it happen.
Or maybe I am just a !!!!e pilot? You decide.
Good luck with it.
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
From: Tie Pay
Circling into Busan is crazy in miz viz, especially at night. Circling in bad weather is crazy anywhere in a widebody but being ex CX, I understand the testosterone approach taken by these gifted aviators.
Good luck.
Good luck.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 381
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From: Asia
Bloggsie
From memory it was about Apr or May 2002. Air China 767-200 not China Airlines. About 120 killed and 30 survivors including the captain who was quite experienced on type but a new captain. Disobeyed rule one of circling approaches in !!!!e wx...don't do them or at the very least always have the field in sight.
As is the want in this part of the world, he was arrested but not sure how long he spent under lock and key in Korea after getting off the respirator.
Have a nice newspaper photo of the smoking hole.
From memory it was about Apr or May 2002. Air China 767-200 not China Airlines. About 120 killed and 30 survivors including the captain who was quite experienced on type but a new captain. Disobeyed rule one of circling approaches in !!!!e wx...don't do them or at the very least always have the field in sight.
As is the want in this part of the world, he was arrested but not sure how long he spent under lock and key in Korea after getting off the respirator.
Have a nice newspaper photo of the smoking hole.
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 424
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From: Everywhere
Traffic, You are correct, it was Air China.
BB, Full circling approaches into FUK yes are rare, but it only takes once and it is a procedure we don’t train for. We may have done it once in the Sim many years ago.
It’s only going to take one new guy in winter, snowing for a full circling. Why, because he thinks he is expected. Or a manager because he thinks he’s Iceman.
We shouldn’t be doing them in Wide body Cat D aircraft within the confines of 2.3nm. Some airlines figured that out but some will need evidence.
BB, Full circling approaches into FUK yes are rare, but it only takes once and it is a procedure we don’t train for. We may have done it once in the Sim many years ago.
It’s only going to take one new guy in winter, snowing for a full circling. Why, because he thinks he is expected. Or a manager because he thinks he’s Iceman.
We shouldn’t be doing them in Wide body Cat D aircraft within the confines of 2.3nm. Some airlines figured that out but some will need evidence.
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 1,374
Likes: 285
From: Moved beyond
...they have an ILS on both runways now, at FUK, so there should be NO need for a circling approach!
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 315
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From: Extreme
As BusyB said you don't circle to 34 at RJFF, if the tailwind is too great on 16 and the cloud/vis allows you will be radar vectored for visual approach 34. If weather degrades further then ILS 34.
Expect to land runway 16 99% of the time.
Now back to PUS.
Expect to land runway 16 99% of the time.
Now back to PUS.
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 258
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From: Europe
Busan does require specific sim training but the term should be used loosly.
The sim does little more than demonstrate how silly the whole idea is and how unstable you will be in final approach.
Why can you fail a checkride being unstable at 1000' on a long dry runway straight in approach in good viz but still being unstable at 200' in the sim in Busan is fine?
Ahhh, KA. Such difficult crap gets dished out in the sim and yet line flying is a big chunk of cheese.
The sim does little more than demonstrate how silly the whole idea is and how unstable you will be in final approach.
Why can you fail a checkride being unstable at 1000' on a long dry runway straight in approach in good viz but still being unstable at 200' in the sim in Busan is fine?
Ahhh, KA. Such difficult crap gets dished out in the sim and yet line flying is a big chunk of cheese.
