5%? 10%? 60%? For a pay raise?
Join Date: Apr 2006
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What you hear from the Union leaks its more in the range of 2-3% , I am sure a insulting offer like this will only accelerate the resignation rate in the ranks . ( but of course there is no problem in the First Officer ranks resigning at the moment - yeah right ) .
Join Date: Jun 2007
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oh yeahhhhhh baby
I think we have seen it all before. I expect to be left dissapointed, i think in the order of 5-10% over a period of time will be ball park. Our biggest driving force is supply and of course the flood (??) of pilots leaving freighters. I think only the managers know how much that is all having an affect, we'll all soon see!!
Lets all hope that a decent offer comes on the table, i for one would like to stay here for quite a while longer but i have to also take a look at all the options that are becoming available to us back in our home countries, the gap has definitely closed!!
Lets all hope that a decent offer comes on the table, i for one would like to stay here for quite a while longer but i have to also take a look at all the options that are becoming available to us back in our home countries, the gap has definitely closed!!
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well, it had better be significant, else a lot of people will be taking those "alternative offers".......................seems they have a chance to get it right now or the damage done will be irepairable.......................still, they no doubt think they still have the whip hand ........................so, stand by to be disappointed ...............................
Join Date: Jul 2007
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I suspect the sound of distant hoof beats will be heard before this mob think to close the gate!
Qantas pays significantly more. Emirates now pays more. BA and Virgin have had big payrises. Virgin blue is looking at paying their FOs around $150-160K to fly the 777 next year - we pay $120K for the Airbus. Even the LCCs pay more than we do now.
Pilots in the US majors are now in the process of negotiating back their huge pay cuts.
No wonder management want a deal. Maybe 1%/1%/1%. At least now we get some profit share...with the extra $6,000 I will be able to retire at least 14mins early!
I guess management rely on two things: pilot inertia and 'not my problem'. We whinge but we don't leave. And by the time we leave the managers will have their nice little promotion into swire bottling or something.
I am telling all would be applicants to take Qantas, Emirates or basically anyone else but CX. Time to command will blowout once age 60 or 65 comes in - and thats assuming you get past the star chamber. I haven't heard of any other airline that allows you to have 2 goes at the last check and then the star chamber fails you because of some non aviation related reason. But then I don't know how North Korean "Kim Jong Il" airlines does things so maybe there is more than one airline like us!
Qantas pays significantly more. Emirates now pays more. BA and Virgin have had big payrises. Virgin blue is looking at paying their FOs around $150-160K to fly the 777 next year - we pay $120K for the Airbus. Even the LCCs pay more than we do now.
Pilots in the US majors are now in the process of negotiating back their huge pay cuts.
No wonder management want a deal. Maybe 1%/1%/1%. At least now we get some profit share...with the extra $6,000 I will be able to retire at least 14mins early!
I guess management rely on two things: pilot inertia and 'not my problem'. We whinge but we don't leave. And by the time we leave the managers will have their nice little promotion into swire bottling or something.
I am telling all would be applicants to take Qantas, Emirates or basically anyone else but CX. Time to command will blowout once age 60 or 65 comes in - and thats assuming you get past the star chamber. I haven't heard of any other airline that allows you to have 2 goes at the last check and then the star chamber fails you because of some non aviation related reason. But then I don't know how North Korean "Kim Jong Il" airlines does things so maybe there is more than one airline like us!
Join Date: Jul 2007
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EK has changed
They got a 6% payrise and HDP introduced recently. Since 2000 their pay has risen over 40%.
If you increase their pay to allow for our 16% tax then their FO salary ranges from $63-70K and CN pay ranges from $100K to $140K. This is ignoring their Exchange Rate Protection which pays up to 7.5% of your salary to allow for loss due to adverse exchange rate movements.
So, an SO gets $35K, JFO $55K, FO $65K and then after 10 years you finally get CN pay of $100K. In EK you start on $63K and then within 3-5 years you are on $100K+. Sounds like a no brainer to me!
So given that commands in EK are slightly less than CX (ie 3-4 years instead of 9 years) I think it is fair to say that you will earn significantly more in EK than in CX.
If you increase their pay to allow for our 16% tax then their FO salary ranges from $63-70K and CN pay ranges from $100K to $140K. This is ignoring their Exchange Rate Protection which pays up to 7.5% of your salary to allow for loss due to adverse exchange rate movements.
So, an SO gets $35K, JFO $55K, FO $65K and then after 10 years you finally get CN pay of $100K. In EK you start on $63K and then within 3-5 years you are on $100K+. Sounds like a no brainer to me!
So given that commands in EK are slightly less than CX (ie 3-4 years instead of 9 years) I think it is fair to say that you will earn significantly more in EK than in CX.
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ULR
EK pay 1st FO 20840 UAE dirhams per month...this equals 44340 HKD add 16% for the tax then it becomes 51434 HKD per month.
This also is ignoring their Exchange Rate Protection which pays up to 7.5% of your salary to allow for loss due to adverse exchange rate movements.
EK pay 1st FO 20840 UAE dirhams per month...this equals 44340 HKD add 16% for the tax then it becomes 51434 HKD per month.
This also is ignoring their Exchange Rate Protection which pays up to 7.5% of your salary to allow for loss due to adverse exchange rate movements.
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Dragon Air offer
I wouldn't be too optimistic. Dragon Air have just been offered 2% this year, another 2% next year, in return for an increase in their overtime threshold !!
Do the math. As usual, now that it is part of the same big airline, they will find themselves contributing to the increase in productivity. It may seem like a pay rise initially, until they figure out that inflation over the last few years has already eroded their pay by more than this 4% figure, and that the company will effectively be gaining a lower hourly rate overall with the increase overtime limits.
Wonder what type of insult is in store for us ???
My guess is :
"A" scale salary, in return for 90 hours overtime threshold and 3 man ultra longhaul.
Then when you do the math you figure that A scale is only about 20% pay rise now to B scale, and that they will save more than this by the increase in productivity with 3 man ultra long haul and 90 hours threshold.
But who would vote for it you say ???
All the regional pilots who currently operate 2 man crew. All the freighter pilots who already operate 3 man crew.
But who would be that stupid you say ???
That's what you said about the second (and first) rostering vote. Go figure.
Do the math. As usual, now that it is part of the same big airline, they will find themselves contributing to the increase in productivity. It may seem like a pay rise initially, until they figure out that inflation over the last few years has already eroded their pay by more than this 4% figure, and that the company will effectively be gaining a lower hourly rate overall with the increase overtime limits.
Wonder what type of insult is in store for us ???
My guess is :
"A" scale salary, in return for 90 hours overtime threshold and 3 man ultra longhaul.
Then when you do the math you figure that A scale is only about 20% pay rise now to B scale, and that they will save more than this by the increase in productivity with 3 man ultra long haul and 90 hours threshold.
But who would vote for it you say ???
All the regional pilots who currently operate 2 man crew. All the freighter pilots who already operate 3 man crew.
But who would be that stupid you say ???
That's what you said about the second (and first) rostering vote. Go figure.
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Korean
I see two CX F/O's have left for a left seat position with Korean, based in Sydney. Interestingly, Korea and Australia have a tax agreement, so Korean pays the tax in Korea and there is no tax demand in Australia. They are paying about HK$100k per month equivilent.
The pay is still better if you are HK based with CX, but if it's a Sydney base that you are after then Koreans' deal with week on, week off, looks very attractive.
The pay is still better if you are HK based with CX, but if it's a Sydney base that you are after then Koreans' deal with week on, week off, looks very attractive.
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Mate, you think QF pays more then CX when you factor in the 45% TAX they have to pay in Aus? Doubt it.
Rice Pudding
That is “NOT” what a tax agreement is about. A tax agreement is simply an agreement between two countries that allows someone to get a tax credit for tax paid in one country against tax owed in another. The arrangement that exists for Australians working a commuter’s roster for Korean Airlines is an arrangement that would most definitely result in one being classed as an Australian resident for tax purposes by the ATO.
That is “NOT” what a tax agreement is about. A tax agreement is simply an agreement between two countries that allows someone to get a tax credit for tax paid in one country against tax owed in another. The arrangement that exists for Australians working a commuter’s roster for Korean Airlines is an arrangement that would most definitely result in one being classed as an Australian resident for tax purposes by the ATO.
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Aussie,
at the 5 year mark in QF you would be say a 767 FO? You would be on about $140K+ pa. Even if you are on the 737 you will be on around $120K+. If you are in CX on a Aussie basing you will be a FO on about $120K pa. In the first 3 years in CX you will be on about $60-$80K pa AUD. I know the first 2 years of SO in QF are a little confusing but I assume you are on at least $80K+ - maybe closer to $100K?
At the 10 year mark if you are on the 400 as an FO you will be on in excess of $200K pa. If you are on a CX Aus basing as a CN you will be on around $200K pa. If you are in HKG you will be just under $200K AUD.
Its once you get command in QF that you leave CX for dead. Talking to mates , after the latest training plan command is at about 13years. That is with age 60(65?) in place on the domestic fleet. CX is still looking at changing ours to 60 or 65 which will extend our command time past current 9 years!
So yes I can confidently say based or not you are better off in QF than in CX financially!
Badairsucker
you forgot their HDP and profit share. They have averaged quite a few weeks a year. If you just assume say 4-5 weeks a year and say 75 hrs of HDP per month, then their salary jumps to 24,800Dirhams which is $52,900HKD after tax, or $62,900 before tax.
That is ignoring free housing as we can get that - ignoring ERP - ignoring free utilities - ignoring free transport to/from work.
So a CX expat going from $35K to $100K(monthly) over 10 years versus EK pilot going from $63K to $100K in 4 years - you do the math. On an annual basis and on a career earnings basis EK is far better remunerated. But then it wasn't always the case. 40%+ payrises over the last 7 years versus our ???? has something to do with it!
at the 5 year mark in QF you would be say a 767 FO? You would be on about $140K+ pa. Even if you are on the 737 you will be on around $120K+. If you are in CX on a Aussie basing you will be a FO on about $120K pa. In the first 3 years in CX you will be on about $60-$80K pa AUD. I know the first 2 years of SO in QF are a little confusing but I assume you are on at least $80K+ - maybe closer to $100K?
At the 10 year mark if you are on the 400 as an FO you will be on in excess of $200K pa. If you are on a CX Aus basing as a CN you will be on around $200K pa. If you are in HKG you will be just under $200K AUD.
Its once you get command in QF that you leave CX for dead. Talking to mates , after the latest training plan command is at about 13years. That is with age 60(65?) in place on the domestic fleet. CX is still looking at changing ours to 60 or 65 which will extend our command time past current 9 years!
So yes I can confidently say based or not you are better off in QF than in CX financially!
Badairsucker
you forgot their HDP and profit share. They have averaged quite a few weeks a year. If you just assume say 4-5 weeks a year and say 75 hrs of HDP per month, then their salary jumps to 24,800Dirhams which is $52,900HKD after tax, or $62,900 before tax.
That is ignoring free housing as we can get that - ignoring ERP - ignoring free utilities - ignoring free transport to/from work.
So a CX expat going from $35K to $100K(monthly) over 10 years versus EK pilot going from $63K to $100K in 4 years - you do the math. On an annual basis and on a career earnings basis EK is far better remunerated. But then it wasn't always the case. 40%+ payrises over the last 7 years versus our ???? has something to do with it!
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ULR,
Too many IF's and buts mate.
We also get HDP and profit share(ok that's a joke) plus a 13th month.
We also get housing that we can make money on, not quite the same at EK.
I would base my figures that are guaranteed each month, not all these extras that are at the companies discretion.
Too many IF's and buts mate.
We also get HDP and profit share(ok that's a joke) plus a 13th month.
We also get housing that we can make money on, not quite the same at EK.
I would base my figures that are guaranteed each month, not all these extras that are at the companies discretion.