Conditions of Service Negotiations...Current Status?
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Conditions of Service Negotiations...Current Status?
What is the current status in Conditions of Service negotiations between the pilots and management at CX?
Are the negotiation just beginning with years to go, in the middle or at the conclusion of negotiations?
What is the consensus of the gains to be made in pay, schedule and blah, blah, blah.
Are the negotiation just beginning with years to go, in the middle or at the conclusion of negotiations?
What is the consensus of the gains to be made in pay, schedule and blah, blah, blah.
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Just at the beginning of 2 months of negotiations. First pay negotiations in 6 years. No discussions on rostering as that is done separately.
Like a long haul flight, bit hard to say at the beginning what the landing is going to be like!
Like a long haul flight, bit hard to say at the beginning what the landing is going to be like!
Last edited by Numero Crunchero; 19th Jun 2007 at 02:49.
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Might be so, but that doesn't solve the problem they have of not filling interview slots in NA. The company has a problem with attracting, and retaining. They can give a pay cut if they want, but that will only make their problem worse.
I'm sure there will be a pay rise and some sort of improvement on the current situation. The question is wether it will be enough to fix their staffing problem. NR might be "wishing" that raising the retirement age alone would bring some back from Oasis, but I think the bigger portion of the problem is filling the bottom of the glass, not keeping the top full.
Raising the retirement age is only a stop gap, and if anything, will require a bigger raise to attract new joiners. After all, if they are having trouble attracting people when the upgrade on the Freighter is arround 2 years and the passenger is arround 10years, then it will only get worse for them when it is raised by going to age 60 (maybe 65) retirement.
I'm sure there will be a pay rise and some sort of improvement on the current situation. The question is wether it will be enough to fix their staffing problem. NR might be "wishing" that raising the retirement age alone would bring some back from Oasis, but I think the bigger portion of the problem is filling the bottom of the glass, not keeping the top full.
Raising the retirement age is only a stop gap, and if anything, will require a bigger raise to attract new joiners. After all, if they are having trouble attracting people when the upgrade on the Freighter is arround 2 years and the passenger is arround 10years, then it will only get worse for them when it is raised by going to age 60 (maybe 65) retirement.
I agree with Numero. They'll talk and talk and talk and talk and not come to any negotiated agreement. The company will then 'offer' the package they were always intending to offer, take it or leave it. As Numero said, that's how it has played out in every 'negotiation' in recent memory.
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Yes, most likely to give a sign or be fired or take it or leave it, etc, etc
.its the Cathay way.
However, it is up to each and every one of you to sign off on it. My speculation is the pilots will sell their soul for a small pay rise.
They will agree to working beyond 55 for less than they have now, the freighter flying will be integrated into the COS but on a lower pay scale (no money in freight and still cant figure out why UPS and Fed Ex pay so much), DEFOs will be entering the system on less pay then now (common pay scale), monthly hours will be increased and probably just about anything else CX wants.
Will that mean there will be a common pay scale for Captains? If it is good enough for the First Officers then it must be good enough for the Captains. We should be working to reduce all the pay scales and have just three, one for Captains, First Officers and Second Officers. If it is more, the company wins.
However next pay negotiations will promise A Scale Captains salary, oh yes that was offered before or so says the DFO and the pilots believed him.
As you can tell, I dont hold much hope. Back to contract compliance.
However, it is up to each and every one of you to sign off on it. My speculation is the pilots will sell their soul for a small pay rise.
They will agree to working beyond 55 for less than they have now, the freighter flying will be integrated into the COS but on a lower pay scale (no money in freight and still cant figure out why UPS and Fed Ex pay so much), DEFOs will be entering the system on less pay then now (common pay scale), monthly hours will be increased and probably just about anything else CX wants.
Will that mean there will be a common pay scale for Captains? If it is good enough for the First Officers then it must be good enough for the Captains. We should be working to reduce all the pay scales and have just three, one for Captains, First Officers and Second Officers. If it is more, the company wins.
However next pay negotiations will promise A Scale Captains salary, oh yes that was offered before or so says the DFO and the pilots believed him.
As you can tell, I dont hold much hope. Back to contract compliance.
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this company is REactive, not PROactive.
I agree with you there NC. But, I believe they have reached the point of reaction. The Fire has already started because they didn't do enything when they could have. For example, maybe not have offered such a ****ty deal back when COS 07 was up for a vote. That would have been proactive.
Now, the precedent has been set and enough people have voted with their feet. And that is with our present situation. So, now comes their reaction to the fire. Not only does their action have to put out the flames, but in this time of rapid expansion, they are gonna have to spend lots on preventing it from flaring up again so that this expansion goes smoothly.
Check the last ATW. On the statistics in the back, you will see an airline with the highest growth rate in the world for the year of 2006. That was Cathay Pacific at 33%. They've already stated that they intend to double in 5 years. And they are in the process of placing a major order for either 748fs or 777fs.
I honestly think the winds ore on our tails. Regardless of what happens here, in today's market, I don't think guys are hesitating to leave if it doesn't improve drastically. There are just too many options out there, unlike when the 49rer deal went down. I know that I would not hesitate myself. I've even dusted off the ol' resume and have started crunching numbers in the log-book.
Everyone here should, it is our only barganing chip.
I agree with you there NC. But, I believe they have reached the point of reaction. The Fire has already started because they didn't do enything when they could have. For example, maybe not have offered such a ****ty deal back when COS 07 was up for a vote. That would have been proactive.
Now, the precedent has been set and enough people have voted with their feet. And that is with our present situation. So, now comes their reaction to the fire. Not only does their action have to put out the flames, but in this time of rapid expansion, they are gonna have to spend lots on preventing it from flaring up again so that this expansion goes smoothly.
Check the last ATW. On the statistics in the back, you will see an airline with the highest growth rate in the world for the year of 2006. That was Cathay Pacific at 33%. They've already stated that they intend to double in 5 years. And they are in the process of placing a major order for either 748fs or 777fs.
I honestly think the winds ore on our tails. Regardless of what happens here, in today's market, I don't think guys are hesitating to leave if it doesn't improve drastically. There are just too many options out there, unlike when the 49rer deal went down. I know that I would not hesitate myself. I've even dusted off the ol' resume and have started crunching numbers in the log-book.
Everyone here should, it is our only barganing chip.
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There has been much talk of what % of a pay rise we would need to merely cover inflation since our last pay rise. Does anyone actually have the figures of year on year Hong Kong inflation? We had deflation for a couple of years, so I would be interested in seeing the actual % of pay rise we would need to merely counter inflation.
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I feel that the Swire Management would rather bleed to death in the gutter than give us a pay rise and/or better COS. If they cannot find the crews then they will simply limit the expansion. Remember they are still effectively a privately owned company and as long as we make money, some money, then they will be happy. I don't think the Swires view CX as a world dominant airline. Small, neat and fairly profitable.
The answer is NO now what was the question..........
The answer is NO now what was the question..........
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You can get inflation data here
http://www.censtatd.gov.hk/
Series C (for high income families) is probably the most appropriate - covers the spending of the top 10% of HK household
Since B scales started
1993 83.6
1994 92.0
1995 100.6
1996 107.2
1997 113.7
1998 117.3
1999 112.9
2000 108.0
2001 106.3
2002 103.3
2003 100.3
2004 99.6
2005 100.3
2006 102.6
2007 104 (April)
So price level now about the same as it was in 2001/2 or 95/96
Makes sense, a friend came to stay who hadn't been in HK since 1997, his comments were that HK was cheaper than ten years ago.
http://www.censtatd.gov.hk/
Series C (for high income families) is probably the most appropriate - covers the spending of the top 10% of HK household
Since B scales started
1993 83.6
1994 92.0
1995 100.6
1996 107.2
1997 113.7
1998 117.3
1999 112.9
2000 108.0
2001 106.3
2002 103.3
2003 100.3
2004 99.6
2005 100.3
2006 102.6
2007 104 (April)
So price level now about the same as it was in 2001/2 or 95/96
Makes sense, a friend came to stay who hadn't been in HK since 1997, his comments were that HK was cheaper than ten years ago.
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JTR - C households spend in the range of $28,200-$61,500, so yes, probably covers most of us - rental puts most of us in there by itself.
geh065 - On the face of it, true. However, someone might want to see if there is an expat inflation index, might be different
Of course, if you measure the salary in ozzie dollars or UKP, a different story, but that is a different argument
geh065 - On the face of it, true. However, someone might want to see if there is an expat inflation index, might be different
Of course, if you measure the salary in ozzie dollars or UKP, a different story, but that is a different argument
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Thanks for the reply. Looks like a good example of an exponential curve. I personally fall off the lower end of the range, as would most/all commuters I suppose, but I guess if you factor in how much is spent in your home country then it is all evened out.
<Sits back and tears the top off another equiv HKD30 can of beer>
<Sits back and tears the top off another equiv HKD30 can of beer>
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This is the year-on-year percentage change of the CPI(C) scale with the index on the right:
1993 +9.5% 83.6
1994 +10.0% 92.0
1995 +9.6% 100.6
1996 +6.6% 107.2
1997 +6.1% 113.7
1998 +3.2% 117.3
1999 -3.7% 112.9
2000 -4.5% 108.8
2001 -1.5% 106.3
2002 -2.8% 103.3
2003 -2.9% 100.3
2004 -0.9% 99.6
2005 +0.8% 100.3
2006 +2.2% 102.6 (Website data incorrectly shows -5.7%)
CPI has increased by 31.7% from 1993 to the end of 2006.
CPI has decreased by 5.1% from 2001 to 2006. Don't forget the significant world events between 2001 and 2005, and that we're expanding...
Data from: http://www.censtatd.gov.hk/hong_kong...=1&tableID=052
1993 +9.5% 83.6
1994 +10.0% 92.0
1995 +9.6% 100.6
1996 +6.6% 107.2
1997 +6.1% 113.7
1998 +3.2% 117.3
1999 -3.7% 112.9
2000 -4.5% 108.8
2001 -1.5% 106.3
2002 -2.8% 103.3
2003 -2.9% 100.3
2004 -0.9% 99.6
2005 +0.8% 100.3
2006 +2.2% 102.6 (Website data incorrectly shows -5.7%)
CPI has increased by 31.7% from 1993 to the end of 2006.
CPI has decreased by 5.1% from 2001 to 2006. Don't forget the significant world events between 2001 and 2005, and that we're expanding...
Data from: http://www.censtatd.gov.hk/hong_kong...=1&tableID=052
Last edited by Ex Douglas Driver; 20th Jun 2007 at 05:07.
And it would be fine if all of us didn't have commitments in our home countrys. But as most of us do, and in my home country the real inflation rate (as opposed to what the government tells us) is about 6%, we are losing out. And don't even get me started on the exchange rate!
The airline I left this place for has had about a 45% pay rise since I resigned. Here - diddy squat!
This is where the market forces are. HK is not an attractive option financially. Pilots just aren't going to the interviews - and people are leaving for the better packages and working conditions at home and on other expat contracts.. Something will have to be done soon or serious damage will be done to the operation.
The airline I left this place for has had about a 45% pay rise since I resigned. Here - diddy squat!
This is where the market forces are. HK is not an attractive option financially. Pilots just aren't going to the interviews - and people are leaving for the better packages and working conditions at home and on other expat contracts.. Something will have to be done soon or serious damage will be done to the operation.
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I don't get it
Cathay was always supposed to be the dream job. Right now my job options are virgin blue, qantas, jet star and cx. Even allowing for tax what I dont get is why I would take a 50% pay cut to move to hkg as a Second Officer when I am told it costs a lot more to live up in Hong Kong. But what I find stranger is why I would take a 20-30% pay cut to stay in Australia and work for Cathay here on a basing?
Unless I have got this wrong, my choices are, take a big paycut, give up all legal and industrial protection, take 9+ years to command, be subject to incredibley weak Hong Kong dollar. Or, take a slightly lower starting salary, take 2-4 years longer to command, be able to control which aircraft and which base I am on based on my seniority. Control my lifestyle and my pay with my seniority and earn about $100,000 more a year 15 years from now in Qantas than I would in Cathay and earn more money over a career.
Like I said I dont get it?
Could one of you Cathay types tell me what it is I am missing? It just seems so bloody obvious that CX is ****e compared to QF in terms of career earnings and lifestyle.
Before I get 'flamed' I do have friends in both organisations so am not completely ignorant!
Unless I have got this wrong, my choices are, take a big paycut, give up all legal and industrial protection, take 9+ years to command, be subject to incredibley weak Hong Kong dollar. Or, take a slightly lower starting salary, take 2-4 years longer to command, be able to control which aircraft and which base I am on based on my seniority. Control my lifestyle and my pay with my seniority and earn about $100,000 more a year 15 years from now in Qantas than I would in Cathay and earn more money over a career.
Like I said I dont get it?
Could one of you Cathay types tell me what it is I am missing? It just seems so bloody obvious that CX is ****e compared to QF in terms of career earnings and lifestyle.
Before I get 'flamed' I do have friends in both organisations so am not completely ignorant!
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Could one of you Cathay types tell me what it is I am missing? It just seems so bloody obvious that CX is ****e compared to QF in terms of career earnings and lifestyle.
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Cx vs QF
One reason to chose CX over QF:
You don't have to call some pompous pr!ck "skipper" to stroke his/her ego..!! (you just call the pompous pr!ck by his/her first name instead!!!)
Not that I had a choice, I can't fold cubes like the Mensa members at QF
You don't have to call some pompous pr!ck "skipper" to stroke his/her ego..!!
(you just call the pompous pr!ck by his/her first name instead!!!)Not that I had a choice, I can't fold cubes like the Mensa members at QF