it's time for the chinese pilot to learn english
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Well if your chinese brothers were pushing as much tin as the JFK guys, they would have to speak faster too. I bet JFK ATC handles more movements in an hour than those beijing controllers do all day.
And thats with just one ground controller. Look at HKG, they have two separate ground controllers, plus a supervisor, just to handle the little ground movements they have compared to JFK.
Not saying the US way is perfect, but when I fly into that north-east corridor and hear that ole Brooklyn slang firing over the radio...i feel all warm and cozy.....and more importantly: SAFE!!!
And thats with just one ground controller. Look at HKG, they have two separate ground controllers, plus a supervisor, just to handle the little ground movements they have compared to JFK.
Not saying the US way is perfect, but when I fly into that north-east corridor and hear that ole Brooklyn slang firing over the radio...i feel all warm and cozy.....and more importantly: SAFE!!!
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Well if your chinese brothers were pushing as much tin as the JFK guys, they would have to speak faster too. I bet JFK ATC handles more movements in an hour than those beijing controllers do all day.
Not saying the US way is perfect, but when I fly into that north-east corridor and hear that ole Brooklyn slang firing over the radio...i feel all warm and cozy.....and more importantly: SAFE!!!
Not being a smartass here, but that's what in my head.
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Was the JFK controller talking in slangish way that only a native english speaker like him could understand? I think his R/T was standard plain, simple and direct. The taxi instructions given to the Air China crew sounded very clear and distinct to me.
While more tolerance and patience is required from ground or ATC controllers in handling situations like these, it is also a must for all aircrew to be at least a bit knowledgeable in English, both verbal and written, esp for those flying in international routes. Preparation is also a key factor here. When flying into a foreign airfield for the first time, aircrews must familiarize themselves with the airport lay-out, taxiways and gates, including frequencies. In busy international airports, grounds controllers and most esp approach/radar controllers don't have the patience and luxury to readback a plain and simple instruction for the nth time esp when most traffic are queued up behind you.
What is most appalling here lies in the fact that the pilots kept on reading back the wrong information, and could not even distinguish a question from an instruction. That to me is quite dangerous. Before you ever do anything or comply with a perceived instruction or orders, there must never be a single ounce of doubt from the aircrews' part and that of the one giving instructions. Let me share with you this example how a simple mistake in reading back instructions can lead to a possible disaster:
One aircraft taxiing and approaching holding point of RWY 30 advised the tower that they are ready for departure. Tower orders them to line up and wait and the aircrews did so. Another aircraft who was apprently in a hurry finished their pushback/start and asked for taxi clearance and requested for possible intersection departure. The tower replied "clear to taxi and hold via E intersection for 30 departure". Pilot replies "Roger, clear to taxi, line up and hold via D intersection for 30 departure". Note that the pilot added "line up" in his readback. The pilots were seemingly unaware that there was another aircraft already lined up on the threshold of Rwy 30 and just awaiting take off clearance, and because the tower used the word "via", the pilots may have taken it as a clearance for them to enter the active runway via the intersection. The tower, probably sensing the ambiguity of the communication emphatically repeated his taxi instructions by saying, "Negative. I say again, clear to taxi and HOLD at the E intersection for 30 departure".
So there. Just imagine what a disaster it may have been as a result of poor communication skills.
While more tolerance and patience is required from ground or ATC controllers in handling situations like these, it is also a must for all aircrew to be at least a bit knowledgeable in English, both verbal and written, esp for those flying in international routes. Preparation is also a key factor here. When flying into a foreign airfield for the first time, aircrews must familiarize themselves with the airport lay-out, taxiways and gates, including frequencies. In busy international airports, grounds controllers and most esp approach/radar controllers don't have the patience and luxury to readback a plain and simple instruction for the nth time esp when most traffic are queued up behind you.
What is most appalling here lies in the fact that the pilots kept on reading back the wrong information, and could not even distinguish a question from an instruction. That to me is quite dangerous. Before you ever do anything or comply with a perceived instruction or orders, there must never be a single ounce of doubt from the aircrews' part and that of the one giving instructions. Let me share with you this example how a simple mistake in reading back instructions can lead to a possible disaster:
One aircraft taxiing and approaching holding point of RWY 30 advised the tower that they are ready for departure. Tower orders them to line up and wait and the aircrews did so. Another aircraft who was apprently in a hurry finished their pushback/start and asked for taxi clearance and requested for possible intersection departure. The tower replied "clear to taxi and hold via E intersection for 30 departure". Pilot replies "Roger, clear to taxi, line up and hold via D intersection for 30 departure". Note that the pilot added "line up" in his readback. The pilots were seemingly unaware that there was another aircraft already lined up on the threshold of Rwy 30 and just awaiting take off clearance, and because the tower used the word "via", the pilots may have taken it as a clearance for them to enter the active runway via the intersection. The tower, probably sensing the ambiguity of the communication emphatically repeated his taxi instructions by saying, "Negative. I say again, clear to taxi and HOLD at the E intersection for 30 departure".
So there. Just imagine what a disaster it may have been as a result of poor communication skills.
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so sort of...........
"Send reinforcements we are going to advance"
becomes
"Send three and fourpence we are going to a dance"
???????????????
the trouble with all North American Controllers is THEY TALK TO FAST.............the whole thing about operating in a foreign language is you need the Native speakers (said jokingly as americans are not) to TALK SLOWLY AND CLEARLY. had the controller done this in this case he would probably have got the correct responses in half the time....................
sort of MORE HASTE..................LESS SPEED....................
"Send reinforcements we are going to advance"
becomes
"Send three and fourpence we are going to a dance"
???????????????
the trouble with all North American Controllers is THEY TALK TO FAST.............the whole thing about operating in a foreign language is you need the Native speakers (said jokingly as americans are not) to TALK SLOWLY AND CLEARLY. had the controller done this in this case he would probably have got the correct responses in half the time....................
sort of MORE HASTE..................LESS SPEED....................
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Nothing wrong with the way ATCO speaks it's fast but quite clear. It's just these guys probably didn't have any exposure to operating outside of PRC and all the ATC communications in PRC going in Chinese doesn't help them either.
Same with the controllers why are the HKG ATCO's so much clearer than the ones just north of HKG. Just ask for the reason of descend "seperation" no traffic on TCAS for the next 50 NM surely it must be a crossing restriction but they don't know the English term....
These people should get a year living in an English speaking environment surely this would help these people a lot more.
Ps. After this tape recording of JFK ground I do not understand why the Air China was a problem. It's not entirely "on topic" but good fun anyway
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGVxX...elated&search=
Same with the controllers why are the HKG ATCO's so much clearer than the ones just north of HKG. Just ask for the reason of descend "seperation" no traffic on TCAS for the next 50 NM surely it must be a crossing restriction but they don't know the English term....
These people should get a year living in an English speaking environment surely this would help these people a lot more.
Ps. After this tape recording of JFK ground I do not understand why the Air China was a problem. It's not entirely "on topic" but good fun anyway
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGVxX...elated&search=
Last edited by Coastrider26; 16th Apr 2007 at 05:07.
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Well if your chinese brothers were pushing as much tin as the JFK guys, they would have to speak faster too. I bet JFK ATC handles more movements in an hour than those beijing controllers do all day.
Traffic Movements 2006 PRELIMINARY
Last update: March 16 2007
Rank City (Airport) Total Movements % Change
20 TORONTO, ON, CA (YYZ) 418 244 4.1
21 MUNICH, DE (MUC) 411 335 3.1
22 BOSTON, MA (BOS) 406 119 ( 0.7)
23 NEW YORK, NY (LGA) 399 036 ( 1.4)
24 LOS ANGELES, CA (VNY) 394 915 ( 4.0)
25 MIAMI, FL (MIA) 385 538 1.0
26 MEMPHIS, TN (MEM) 384 823 ( 1.9)
27 WASHINGTON, DC (IAD) 379 280 ( 25.6)
28 BEIJING, CN (PEK) 376 340 10.2
29 NEW YORK, NY (JFK) 375 377 8.3
30 LONG BEACH, CA (LGB) 369 708 4.7
Nice one iLuvPX.
Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.
The JFK guys just like to SOUND like they're pushing more tin.
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It also doesn't help that you need to get clearance onto the ramp from a different "controller" on a different freq who has no desire to co-ordinate with the ground controller; therefore 2 freqs drowning each other out in the headset. Further, potentially each pilot is working their own freq whilst trying to figure out a taxi instruction heavily laden with local jargon whilst battling taxiways that are narrow, busy and poorly lit....
Now try doing that in your second or third language...
Never understood why American airfields are set up that way.....they obviously know something the rest of the world don't
Now try doing that in your second or third language...
Never understood why American airfields are set up that way.....they obviously know something the rest of the world don't
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"Make the right turn here at Juliette, join Alpha, hold short of MikeAlpha. "
What's with the use of "make the right turn here at...."? I've never heard this used anywhere outside of North America. Otherwise you'll hear "taxi via Juliette, Alpha, and hold short of MikeAlpha."
North-American English is my first language, but having flown overseas for the last 11 years I see the problem with this kind of "local" variation on the communications.
What's with the use of "make the right turn here at...."? I've never heard this used anywhere outside of North America. Otherwise you'll hear "taxi via Juliette, Alpha, and hold short of MikeAlpha."
North-American English is my first language, but having flown overseas for the last 11 years I see the problem with this kind of "local" variation on the communications.
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Movements = flights. Not passengers
Yes, PEK is busier than JFK. But it is also somewhat better laid out and designed, rather than the dog's breakfast that is JFK. So the controllers are not as stressed.
All this about non-standard is rubbish? You should be able to understand a direct order? Poppycock. History (aviation and otherwise) is full of misunderstood direct orders that led to disaster. Doesn't help that 1,2,4,8 all have homonyms in Standard English, 3,10 have homonyms in some dialects (three/free and ten/then). Let alone 13-19 sounding similar to 30-90.
E.g. "turn to forty"
turn to 40?
turn to 14?
turn 240?
turn for tea? (if misheard)
Yes, PEK is busier than JFK. But it is also somewhat better laid out and designed, rather than the dog's breakfast that is JFK. So the controllers are not as stressed.
All this about non-standard is rubbish? You should be able to understand a direct order? Poppycock. History (aviation and otherwise) is full of misunderstood direct orders that led to disaster. Doesn't help that 1,2,4,8 all have homonyms in Standard English, 3,10 have homonyms in some dialects (three/free and ten/then). Let alone 13-19 sounding similar to 30-90.
E.g. "turn to forty"
turn to 40?
turn to 14?
turn 240?
turn for tea? (if misheard)
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iluvpax, You can't count mate, the ground frequencies in HK are split only between 11am and 6pm and they include the hardest part of the deal and that is pushbacks/ramp. JFK has separate freqs for that. And what the F*%k has a "supervisor got to do with it. There are Supervisors in all major towers that are just "supervising" not actually operating. If you want to comment on ATC issues at least know what you're talking about!
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Does that statistic reflect number of aircrafts or number of passengers handled? Remember 1 744 is equal to a whole lot of CRJ's/1900's etc.
It's just these guys probably didn't have any exposure to operating outside of PRC
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wow, what a true bunch of understanding considerate professionals..............so , let me get this right, if you can't understand what is said at the first attempt you should have your area of operation restricted to the area in which you can speak the language/local dialect ??
OK, so according to 50% of the (Presumably North American) posters on here you lot should not be allowed to fly outside the US......................I hate to think how many times I have to interpret the Japanese/Taiwanese/chinese controllers for my North American colleagues..................so before we get any more of this "Holier than thou" crap , lets just take a breath. At the end of the day, the art of doing OK (not even well or good) is about getting it right, even if you have to stop the aluminium and inconvenience a few folks..........................so once in a while we all have to slow down and allow for those who didn't get the lottery prize of being born an english speaker.........................By the way, you do know the chinese are likely to take over the world soon, the rate they are going ??? Better start you mandarin lessons guys, wouldn't want to embarass yourselves screwing up a readback, now, would you ??
OK, so according to 50% of the (Presumably North American) posters on here you lot should not be allowed to fly outside the US......................I hate to think how many times I have to interpret the Japanese/Taiwanese/chinese controllers for my North American colleagues..................so before we get any more of this "Holier than thou" crap , lets just take a breath. At the end of the day, the art of doing OK (not even well or good) is about getting it right, even if you have to stop the aluminium and inconvenience a few folks..........................so once in a while we all have to slow down and allow for those who didn't get the lottery prize of being born an english speaker.........................By the way, you do know the chinese are likely to take over the world soon, the rate they are going ??? Better start you mandarin lessons guys, wouldn't want to embarass yourselves screwing up a readback, now, would you ??
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my 2 cents :
If I try to talk to somebody and he doesn't understand it, I go for something different. Instead of yelling at the poor china man over and over the same question, he should have tried something else, like " hold position, call ramp on/ freq..." He clearly was up to humiliate him.
How about a poll regarding the airports with the worst ATC controllers/system ?
My number one would be CDG, followed by JFK and TPE.
If I try to talk to somebody and he doesn't understand it, I go for something different. Instead of yelling at the poor china man over and over the same question, he should have tried something else, like " hold position, call ramp on/ freq..." He clearly was up to humiliate him.
How about a poll regarding the airports with the worst ATC controllers/system ?
My number one would be CDG, followed by JFK and TPE.
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Bekol, never realized that PEK had grown so fast in the last year. Thanks for that, solid figures are always a good...luckily i didnt take that "bet"!!
As for Sizematters...what are you on about? No one is saying that. The fact is, English is the official language of aviation. Even ICAO isnt going to cater to the minority with this.
If you look at Bekol's handy Airports Council Chart you will see that 9 of the top 10 busiest airports in the world are in North America, and 23 out of the top 30. Only one Asian airport PEK #28, made it in the top 30.
So as you can see, the majority users of the ATC system speak good ole English, therefore thats what is used. If you cant understand something, you are well in your right to ask them to say again until you understand it. But dont expect them to cater to you every time. The Chinese need to learn English if they want to operate in an environment where only English is spoken...period.
As for Sizematters...what are you on about? No one is saying that. The fact is, English is the official language of aviation. Even ICAO isnt going to cater to the minority with this.
If you look at Bekol's handy Airports Council Chart you will see that 9 of the top 10 busiest airports in the world are in North America, and 23 out of the top 30. Only one Asian airport PEK #28, made it in the top 30.
So as you can see, the majority users of the ATC system speak good ole English, therefore thats what is used. If you cant understand something, you are well in your right to ask them to say again until you understand it. But dont expect them to cater to you every time. The Chinese need to learn English if they want to operate in an environment where only English is spoken...period.
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Well, he may not speak English as well as you or me but he does speak some English! Does he meet Level 4 of the new ICAO Language Proficiency requirements? Hard to tell from that short exchange. I guess we'll find out by next March.
In the meantime, as others have intimated, the JFK controller could have tried a different tack rather than beating the guy to death with his sarcasm. His so-called question "They had cleared you into the ramp?" only makes sense if you understand the subtle inflection at the end. Easily interpreted as a statement if you don't.
In the meantime, as others have intimated, the JFK controller could have tried a different tack rather than beating the guy to death with his sarcasm. His so-called question "They had cleared you into the ramp?" only makes sense if you understand the subtle inflection at the end. Easily interpreted as a statement if you don't.
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By the way, you do know the chinese are likely to take over the world soon, the rate they are going ??? Better start you mandarin lessons guys, wouldn't want to embarass yourselves screwing up a readback, now, would you ??
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Let's say Spanish was the official aviation language and you with a North American accent just landed at Madrid.
Tower, "North American 981, hacer la vuelta derecha aquí en Juliette, ensamblar la alfa, sostener brevemente de MikeAlpha."
North American 981, "Derecho en el asimiento de Juliette sh… Asimiento noviembre de la alfa del taxi ¿Podemos ahora carretear?"
Tower, "Hacer la vuelta derecha aquí en Juliette, ensamblar la alfa, sostener brevemente de MikeAlpha, North American 981"
North American 981, "Roger ensambla a Juliette adecuado, ensambla la alfa, asimiento, cortocircuito a noviembre"
... and so on. What do you think now huh?
[ps] I dont speak a word of spanish. I just dumped the script into some online translator
Tower, "North American 981, hacer la vuelta derecha aquí en Juliette, ensamblar la alfa, sostener brevemente de MikeAlpha."
North American 981, "Derecho en el asimiento de Juliette sh… Asimiento noviembre de la alfa del taxi ¿Podemos ahora carretear?"
Tower, "Hacer la vuelta derecha aquí en Juliette, ensamblar la alfa, sostener brevemente de MikeAlpha, North American 981"
North American 981, "Roger ensambla a Juliette adecuado, ensambla la alfa, asimiento, cortocircuito a noviembre"
... and so on. What do you think now huh?
[ps] I dont speak a word of spanish. I just dumped the script into some online translator