American Leaves CO for CX...
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Wrong. If you take the rental assistance as cash or have the company pay off your mortgage in Hong Kong it is 100% taxable at the highest marginal tax rate of 19%. If you take the rental assistance and register the rental property with the company you pay additional tax that is equivalent to 10% of your gross income at the highest marginal rate, i.e. 19%.
You're kidding, 19% MAX tax? those poor Cathay pilots, can't think of any airlines in the U.S. who make a housing allowance available to their flight crews. It all goes to the top. Even if they did, the highest marginal rates in California are so high it's almost cheaper to file for bankruptcy.
I think the idea that you'll get something at all to offset cost of living underscores tremendously, the value in working at CX.
Only those on a base will receive an additional 15.5% of their gross income in cash for them to invest for retirement. If you are based in Hong Kong it will be invested in the company’s provident fund. You will have no choice as to who manages it.
Fair cop, I don't pretend to work for Cathay but I figured I got the info straight from the horse’s mouth. Allegedly (thanks 404) if you’re based in Hong Kong you have no choice in where to put your retirement so cross your fingers.
Like most everyone else in the world, my retimrement & health care benefits are deducted straight out of my paycheck every single month.
What volatile FX market are you talking about? If you are from any other country like me, Australia, my take home pay in Australian dollars has dropped more than 40% in the last five years.
The statement contradicts itself...
Evidently at least someone else besides me viewing this thread knows how volatile FX markets really are. Based in NYC? I'd leave CO for CX anyday. Good luck, Mark Skid.
~R~
Rice bowl licker
Before you start trying to debate me about CX, I suggest you do a little research as to my opinions of CX. I am one of the few that don’t get on here and bag CX at every chance. What I do stand up for are facts. I don’t care if you are pro or anti CX, if what you are saying is incorrect and I know it is I will correct you. To come back with some snide remark about “those poor CX pilots” just illustrates to me that debating you is probably pointless. You made a statement that we don’t pay tax on our housing. That is wrong but you seem to have a problem that?
By the way CX pays a housing allowance because most pilots here are expats. I and most of my colleges wouldn’t be here if housing wasn’t paid for. How many expat pilots work for the US majors? I doubt if it is more than 90% like it is here. CX isn’t alone in providing housing for expats. Most reputable airlines that don’t have a natural pool of home grown pilots all provide housing for expats. Airline like Emirates, Korean, Jal, Singapore etc all provide housing for expat pilots because they have too. Airlines aren’t alone either. Most financial sector companies in this region also pay housing for their expat employees. No one would come here for the long term if it wasn’t just because of the cost of getting something that is similar to what one would expect in their home country.
They do here as well. One must make contributions to their own provident fund as well and medical insurance isn’t free.
It isn’t contradictory at all if you had read and pasted everything I wrote. The HK$ is pegged to the US$ so for an American working for CX and based in HK, he/she is effectively earning US$, just like their American based cousins. Americans though are definitely in the minority here. Most are from Australia, UK, NZ and Canada. All those currencies have significantly appreciated against the US$ and hence the pegged HK$. This has resulted in a significant pay cut for most HK based expats as most have significant debts and expenses in their home countries and hence home currencies.
By the way a volatile currency environment is one when the rates are all over the place. For the last five years though the trend has been pretty much in one direction for the US$, down. This isn’t the definition of a volatile currency market when I use to be a currency dealer in my last life.
Good luck though if you want to come here. I would be the last person to try and stop you or suggest otherwise. It isn't the bad place some make it out to be.
Before you start trying to debate me about CX, I suggest you do a little research as to my opinions of CX. I am one of the few that don’t get on here and bag CX at every chance. What I do stand up for are facts. I don’t care if you are pro or anti CX, if what you are saying is incorrect and I know it is I will correct you. To come back with some snide remark about “those poor CX pilots” just illustrates to me that debating you is probably pointless. You made a statement that we don’t pay tax on our housing. That is wrong but you seem to have a problem that?
can't think of any airlines in the U.S. who make a housing allowance available to their flight crews.
Like most everyone else in the world, my retimrement & health care benefits are deducted straight out of my paycheck every single month.
The statement contradicts itself...
Evidently at least someone else besides me viewing this thread knows how volatile FX markets really are.
Good luck though if you want to come here. I would be the last person to try and stop you or suggest otherwise. It isn't the bad place some make it out to be.
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A bit more on U.S. CX pay, benefits, rosters
Mark Skid:
Just for clarification: U.S. pilots don't pay for medical benefits. And I don't know of any other based dudes (sorry, I couldn't help it) who have their 15.5% provident fund money invested in Cathay's Provident Fund.
Personally, I invest my 15.5% (and then some) in the U.S. stock market every month. This means I pay taxes on it as income, and I pay taxes again on it when I reap capital gains (or if I'm not as smart as I think I am, I offset my taxes with my capital losses - ouch! I AM a pilot, after all...) The only regular deduction from my paycheck is U.S. federal taxes. I pay estimated state taxes, and no fica, medicare, etc. (although when I end up on the gov't dole in my dotage, I DO plan to collect).
Anyway, the Provident Fund vesting period at Cathay is 10 years. As I understand it, if you leave in year 1, you must return 90% of it to Cathay. Leave in year 2, return 80%. Year 3, 70%, etc... At year 10, you're fully vested, and the money is all yours.
From what I've been able to gather, this is because this 15.5% is WAY ABOVE the minimum Provident Fund contribution in Hong Kong. And I'm really going out on a limb here.... from my research a couple of years ago, I seem to remember that the Provident Fund in Hong Kong is mandatory (that's pronounced man-day-tuh-ree for my fellow unwashed Americans), and portable between employers. So the vesting at Cathay allows you to quit (or be fired), and keep at least the minimum contributions.
The real possibilities of one's sudden dismissal, one's dissatisfaction with Cathay, or one's recall to a better paying job, make "taking the Provident money in cash" a sensible choice - at least for Americans. A bird in the hand, as they say.
By the way, there are many, many sets of "conditions of service" under which pilots work at Cathay. The pilot group is very fragmented in this regard. 404 Titan is in a better position to tell you about his conditions of service in Hong Kong. My point of reference is from USAB freighter conditions of service.
On pay: Sysyphos posted an observation about the pay earlier in this thread, evidently under the impression that the pay is barely a liveable wage in the U.S.
While Cathay is, shall we say, a bit "deliberate" in the area of pay "rises" (don't worry, if you come to CX, you'll discover as an American that your mastery of your mother tongue is a bit lacking), I make a couple of (mainly obvious) points:
1) here in the U.S., we don't pay our mortgage in Pounds Sterling or Euros. We "live on the economy" in U.S. dollars. And first year pay at Cathay has not put me in the poor house. Would I like to make more? Of course. Is my current pay less than 1/2 my pay when I was furloughed from a legacy U.S. carrier? Yes. Am I happy at Cathay? Very happy. By the way, if you're an American thinking about taking a job in Hong Kong, you'd better "do the maths" first, however. Those Benjamins don't go as far abroad as they do here in the U.S. And because the HK dollar is tied to the U.S. dollar, it might not make sense for you.
2) You will make more money at Cathay in your first year (or two) than at almost all U.S. carriers in the first year (or two). After that, one might start looking again at the greener pastures - particularly if Cathay "training" proves not to be fun.
3) My rosters have been fabulous. My "bread and butter month" is 12 days. If I take 2 of my 6 weeks of annual leave in a given month, I'm likely to work anywhere from 3 to 6 days. You should NEVER have to go to HK just for training. This one saves you several days per year in commuting time. They build your recurrent training (RT/PC), Hong Kong medical exams, emergency, CRM training, etc. into your roster. My last RT/PC month was the worst month I've seen at Cathay. As I recall, the trip with the RT/PC was 10 days, and I worked another 5 day trip in that month.
disclaimer: some RPIC rosters and U.S. based command rosters REALLY SUCK. Lots of PX'ing (for you Yanks that's "deadheading"), and lots more work days. As Cathay is basically eliminating the RPIC distinction, that ****e may begin to flow downhill.
Having said all of that, while one may look toward command upgrade as an opportunity to fix the "money problem", the lousy command rosters present another problem. Cathay is nothing if not full of options, however. After 3 years from freighter f/o checkout you can opt to fly on the U.S. passenger fleet as a first officer, killing two birds (scheduling and money, but not the important third, command) with one stone.
baseddude
Just for clarification: U.S. pilots don't pay for medical benefits. And I don't know of any other based dudes (sorry, I couldn't help it) who have their 15.5% provident fund money invested in Cathay's Provident Fund.
Personally, I invest my 15.5% (and then some) in the U.S. stock market every month. This means I pay taxes on it as income, and I pay taxes again on it when I reap capital gains (or if I'm not as smart as I think I am, I offset my taxes with my capital losses - ouch! I AM a pilot, after all...) The only regular deduction from my paycheck is U.S. federal taxes. I pay estimated state taxes, and no fica, medicare, etc. (although when I end up on the gov't dole in my dotage, I DO plan to collect).
Anyway, the Provident Fund vesting period at Cathay is 10 years. As I understand it, if you leave in year 1, you must return 90% of it to Cathay. Leave in year 2, return 80%. Year 3, 70%, etc... At year 10, you're fully vested, and the money is all yours.
From what I've been able to gather, this is because this 15.5% is WAY ABOVE the minimum Provident Fund contribution in Hong Kong. And I'm really going out on a limb here.... from my research a couple of years ago, I seem to remember that the Provident Fund in Hong Kong is mandatory (that's pronounced man-day-tuh-ree for my fellow unwashed Americans), and portable between employers. So the vesting at Cathay allows you to quit (or be fired), and keep at least the minimum contributions.
The real possibilities of one's sudden dismissal, one's dissatisfaction with Cathay, or one's recall to a better paying job, make "taking the Provident money in cash" a sensible choice - at least for Americans. A bird in the hand, as they say.
By the way, there are many, many sets of "conditions of service" under which pilots work at Cathay. The pilot group is very fragmented in this regard. 404 Titan is in a better position to tell you about his conditions of service in Hong Kong. My point of reference is from USAB freighter conditions of service.
On pay: Sysyphos posted an observation about the pay earlier in this thread, evidently under the impression that the pay is barely a liveable wage in the U.S.
While Cathay is, shall we say, a bit "deliberate" in the area of pay "rises" (don't worry, if you come to CX, you'll discover as an American that your mastery of your mother tongue is a bit lacking), I make a couple of (mainly obvious) points:
1) here in the U.S., we don't pay our mortgage in Pounds Sterling or Euros. We "live on the economy" in U.S. dollars. And first year pay at Cathay has not put me in the poor house. Would I like to make more? Of course. Is my current pay less than 1/2 my pay when I was furloughed from a legacy U.S. carrier? Yes. Am I happy at Cathay? Very happy. By the way, if you're an American thinking about taking a job in Hong Kong, you'd better "do the maths" first, however. Those Benjamins don't go as far abroad as they do here in the U.S. And because the HK dollar is tied to the U.S. dollar, it might not make sense for you.
2) You will make more money at Cathay in your first year (or two) than at almost all U.S. carriers in the first year (or two). After that, one might start looking again at the greener pastures - particularly if Cathay "training" proves not to be fun.
3) My rosters have been fabulous. My "bread and butter month" is 12 days. If I take 2 of my 6 weeks of annual leave in a given month, I'm likely to work anywhere from 3 to 6 days. You should NEVER have to go to HK just for training. This one saves you several days per year in commuting time. They build your recurrent training (RT/PC), Hong Kong medical exams, emergency, CRM training, etc. into your roster. My last RT/PC month was the worst month I've seen at Cathay. As I recall, the trip with the RT/PC was 10 days, and I worked another 5 day trip in that month.
disclaimer: some RPIC rosters and U.S. based command rosters REALLY SUCK. Lots of PX'ing (for you Yanks that's "deadheading"), and lots more work days. As Cathay is basically eliminating the RPIC distinction, that ****e may begin to flow downhill.
Having said all of that, while one may look toward command upgrade as an opportunity to fix the "money problem", the lousy command rosters present another problem. Cathay is nothing if not full of options, however. After 3 years from freighter f/o checkout you can opt to fly on the U.S. passenger fleet as a first officer, killing two birds (scheduling and money, but not the important third, command) with one stone.
baseddude
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Good luck though if you want to come here. I would be the last person to try and stop you or suggest otherwise. It isn't the bad place some make it out to be.
Took us a while to finally get here but thank you for finessing the point. 
B.t.w. Basedude, heh thanks profusely for the GREAT perspective, CX sounds like a great place to be right now!
B.t.w. Basedude, heh thanks profusely for the GREAT perspective, CX sounds like a great place to be right now!
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my suggestion, rice bowl : print out this thread and keep it.After 1 year in the company, get it out and read it again. THEN you will understand, I guarantee you will vomit into your rice bowl straight away.
But who am I to suggest that, I made the same mistake..
But who am I to suggest that, I made the same mistake..
The Reverend
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Well sysyphos, after 25 years with Cx and another nine with a cargo outfit in HKG, which eventually became CX also, I consider myself in retirement, to have made an excellent choice to join CX.
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HotDog, If I, or indeed almost all of the posters here had of joined CX 34 years ago, I imagine we too would feel the same way.
However... when you joined it was;
Not even A-Scale, since there was only one scale.
Profit share measured in months, not days
Doing 82 hours and doubling ones salary
Sitting in the crew room during a typhoon happy to help out
Renting your own house from yourself ad infinitum
Travel allowance
Expat travel desk
Visual approaches to Kai Tak
etc etc
vs.
Well, do I really need to start?
Don't get me wrong, I wish to take nothing away from you in your retirement, but things have changed a lot old chap, and the relevance of your post to present employment conditions are of no significance at all.
Nice photo by the way. I chuckle every time I see Wan King Path.
However... when you joined it was;
Not even A-Scale, since there was only one scale.
Profit share measured in months, not days
Doing 82 hours and doubling ones salary
Sitting in the crew room during a typhoon happy to help out
Renting your own house from yourself ad infinitum
Travel allowance
Expat travel desk
Visual approaches to Kai Tak
etc etc
vs.
Well, do I really need to start?
Don't get me wrong, I wish to take nothing away from you in your retirement, but things have changed a lot old chap, and the relevance of your post to present employment conditions are of no significance at all.
Nice photo by the way. I chuckle every time I see Wan King Path.
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Only those on a base will receive an additional 15.5% of their gross income in cash for them to invest for retirement. If you are based in Hong Kong it will be invested in the company’s provident fund. You will have no choice as to who manages it.
Fair cop, I don't pretend to work for Cathay but I figured I got the info straight from the horse’s mouth. Allegedly (thanks 404) if you’re based in Hong Kong you have no choice in where to put your retirement so cross your fingers.
Like most everyone else in the world, my retimrement & health care benefits are deducted straight out of my paycheck every single month.
The 15.5% contribution are invested in selected Prudentials Funds (I think there's like 40 or 50 of them to choose from), and employee can make their own funds selection. Unless if you are lazy, the company director will invest the money according to your age/risk profile. So if you are not lazy, you do have a choice on your investment plan.
Also the funds is vested over 10 years period. You get 10% of the funds if you quit after 1st year, 20% after 2nd year, etc. So as long as you don't quit within 10 years, you should be alright. Just my two cents!
bus
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A great place to be in after my first training flight I was looking in the net for some more info. on the aviation issues and then I found this place, actually we are a team who enrolled ourselves to this and are now looking to take our careers to the peak where indeed the sky is the limit.
