Buying a house? Yes or No?
The Reverend
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Tryhard, the advice on buying your own home and letting Cathay pay it off is still valid as far as I am concerned. Obviously it will only work for someone who has a long term commitment in view with Cathay so it probably wouldn't suit you too well. As far as waking up and bugging out, that is my prerogative but thanks for the advice, son. 
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horserun + engine out
you get half the allowance for the first 2 years as an SO. The allowance varies as it is linked to some hkg property price index. At the moment I think it is around 48, so you would get 24 for first 2 years.
From 2 years on until 8years in the company you get the allowance, 48 right now. From 8years until CN you get an amount half way between the allowance and CN allowance(73?). So you would get around 60K. Then as CN you get the CN allowance, currently 73ish?
Note, whilst you are getting the lower allowance 24 then 48, you pay nothing out of your pocket. If you choose to go above that 48 to 60 as 8year employee, or 73 as CN, you pay 8% of the rent out of your pocket.
Once you have a lease or morgage, the amount you receive is locked in for 2 years usually. After 2 years you can then rent/buy for whatever the current allowance is.
clear as mud?
you get half the allowance for the first 2 years as an SO. The allowance varies as it is linked to some hkg property price index. At the moment I think it is around 48, so you would get 24 for first 2 years.
From 2 years on until 8years in the company you get the allowance, 48 right now. From 8years until CN you get an amount half way between the allowance and CN allowance(73?). So you would get around 60K. Then as CN you get the CN allowance, currently 73ish?
Note, whilst you are getting the lower allowance 24 then 48, you pay nothing out of your pocket. If you choose to go above that 48 to 60 as 8year employee, or 73 as CN, you pay 8% of the rent out of your pocket.
Once you have a lease or morgage, the amount you receive is locked in for 2 years usually. After 2 years you can then rent/buy for whatever the current allowance is.
clear as mud?
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Regarding rapidly paying off a mortgage, the sweet-spot is at around HKD 3-4m for your first apartment/boat, i.e. big enough to live in, but small enough to pay off reasonably quickly. This also reduces the risk regarding prices, because if you are paying off almost 0.5m a year, it is hard to be left in negative equity for long.
My first apartment was around 3m/1200' and after about 3 years and paying off over half the mortage I bought a bigger place 8m/1600'. I remortgaged the first place up to brake-even point on rental income (back to 3m), and then used the remortgaged amount to pay the 10% deposit, mortgage insurance, stamp duty and reno cost for the new apartment.
This is the hypothetical case that would get you sacked and was alledgedly the case with the sacked FO's:
Both parties bought an apartment each (his and her's) and individually claim full owner occupier allowance to cover both mortgages. You can do this without contravening the T&C's of the housing scheme, so long as you remain an owner-occupier, and you are not married to the other person. If you are a married couple, only one party can claim the full allowance.
They move into the bigger apartment together and rent out the other apartment to a third party, while still claming owner-occupier assistance on both apartments.
In this hypothetical case the person not claiming the full allowance could have claimed the 24k basic allowance, but chose not to go this route and continued to claim the full allowance.
This doesn't comply with the housing scheme conditions, and would result in the company being out of pocket about 20k per month.
Last year Personnel announced an amnesty last year listing the types of abuses that might be occurring and offered a few months leeway for people to own-up and come to some arrangement to pay back any excess payments to the company. I can only assume that the people involved did not take this opportunity to come clean, and were found out.
My opinion is that the housing scheme can be used quite legitimately as a get-rich scheme, and the owner-occupier option is superb if you are not too risk adverse. There are enough 'allowed' ways to use the scheme to your advantage, that you would have to be crazy to try to pull a fast one on the company.
They are not (entirely) stupid, and it only takes one jealous person to grass you up...
My first apartment was around 3m/1200' and after about 3 years and paying off over half the mortage I bought a bigger place 8m/1600'. I remortgaged the first place up to brake-even point on rental income (back to 3m), and then used the remortgaged amount to pay the 10% deposit, mortgage insurance, stamp duty and reno cost for the new apartment.
This is the hypothetical case that would get you sacked and was alledgedly the case with the sacked FO's:
Both parties bought an apartment each (his and her's) and individually claim full owner occupier allowance to cover both mortgages. You can do this without contravening the T&C's of the housing scheme, so long as you remain an owner-occupier, and you are not married to the other person. If you are a married couple, only one party can claim the full allowance.
They move into the bigger apartment together and rent out the other apartment to a third party, while still claming owner-occupier assistance on both apartments.
In this hypothetical case the person not claiming the full allowance could have claimed the 24k basic allowance, but chose not to go this route and continued to claim the full allowance.
This doesn't comply with the housing scheme conditions, and would result in the company being out of pocket about 20k per month.
Last year Personnel announced an amnesty last year listing the types of abuses that might be occurring and offered a few months leeway for people to own-up and come to some arrangement to pay back any excess payments to the company. I can only assume that the people involved did not take this opportunity to come clean, and were found out.
My opinion is that the housing scheme can be used quite legitimately as a get-rich scheme, and the owner-occupier option is superb if you are not too risk adverse. There are enough 'allowed' ways to use the scheme to your advantage, that you would have to be crazy to try to pull a fast one on the company.
They are not (entirely) stupid, and it only takes one jealous person to grass you up...
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Dealing with the original question....
....rather than other issues that muddy the waters.
There are actually some very valid and worthwhile comments if you sift through the replies to your original question.
You must initially decide how risk adverse you are. Buying a house has the potential to set you up very nicely but it ties you to Hong Kong should anything go wrong. How much of a risk you think it is to lose your job/liscense only you can decide, regargless of what some will rant about on this site.
As has been stated the smaller the initial outlay the easier it is to get equity in the property and bug out should anything go wrong. For me it was $5 mil (as was mentioned 3-5 mil is a fairly safe target but don't expect much size wise)
Obviously the greater the purchase price the bigger the potential gains but the greater the risk if property takes a dive or you have a 'bad life event'.
Renting removes all of this risk as you simply up stakes and leave. The figures by Numero and others nicely explain how much you will get for either option.
My advice, for what it is worth, is take your time. Get to HK, rent a place for at least 12 mths and get comfortable. Then start your research, whats the market doing, where do I want to live, how big place do I need for my family, do I feel comforrtable with work, do I actually want to live in HK for the next 5 years or so and lastly, what realistically can I afford given the large initial outlay and associated costs.
If you think you are going to be here for a while I would go for it. If you have time on your side it obviously reduces the risk as you can ride out the dips and sell in a boom. The Golden Rule is to never be in a position where you are forced to sell. We purchased after 1 year by borrowing the deposit against one of our overseas properties, the mortgage has been paid down by CX to 3.5 mil and the house next door just sold for 9mil so for us it has been a great investment.
Hope that helps
There are actually some very valid and worthwhile comments if you sift through the replies to your original question.
You must initially decide how risk adverse you are. Buying a house has the potential to set you up very nicely but it ties you to Hong Kong should anything go wrong. How much of a risk you think it is to lose your job/liscense only you can decide, regargless of what some will rant about on this site.
As has been stated the smaller the initial outlay the easier it is to get equity in the property and bug out should anything go wrong. For me it was $5 mil (as was mentioned 3-5 mil is a fairly safe target but don't expect much size wise)
Obviously the greater the purchase price the bigger the potential gains but the greater the risk if property takes a dive or you have a 'bad life event'.
Renting removes all of this risk as you simply up stakes and leave. The figures by Numero and others nicely explain how much you will get for either option.
My advice, for what it is worth, is take your time. Get to HK, rent a place for at least 12 mths and get comfortable. Then start your research, whats the market doing, where do I want to live, how big place do I need for my family, do I feel comforrtable with work, do I actually want to live in HK for the next 5 years or so and lastly, what realistically can I afford given the large initial outlay and associated costs.
If you think you are going to be here for a while I would go for it. If you have time on your side it obviously reduces the risk as you can ride out the dips and sell in a boom. The Golden Rule is to never be in a position where you are forced to sell. We purchased after 1 year by borrowing the deposit against one of our overseas properties, the mortgage has been paid down by CX to 3.5 mil and the house next door just sold for 9mil so for us it has been a great investment.
Hope that helps
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Then one day your TERMINATED! Why you may ask? Maybe you let your friend stay at your flat while you were on leave. Or maybe you stayed at your friends flat while yours is being renovated. Or it could be the unfortunate sims you had trying to achieve a Cat A S/O status. Or it could be peanuts.
My opinion, wait until at least 18 months. See how your Sims are going and what the write up’s are. If you start with some bad write ups, expect a difficult time. Don’t give them an excuse. Know it all and don’t &^$@ it up.
You don’t want to buy a house and then be terminated because you cannot upgrade to JF/O.
What is the rental market like? What will your flat rent out for? Will it cover the mortgage? All sorts of questions.
Will you last in HK? Will the Misses last in HK? Will it affect her asthma? Is it too polluted?
Wait and see how it turns out.
If you are going to buy. Buy the biggest Goddamn place you can afford and mortgage as much as you can with other loans, so if you do get terminated, leave the keys on the DFO's desk, We will make sure HSBC gets them.
My opinion, wait until at least 18 months. See how your Sims are going and what the write up’s are. If you start with some bad write ups, expect a difficult time. Don’t give them an excuse. Know it all and don’t &^$@ it up.
You don’t want to buy a house and then be terminated because you cannot upgrade to JF/O.
What is the rental market like? What will your flat rent out for? Will it cover the mortgage? All sorts of questions.
Will you last in HK? Will the Misses last in HK? Will it affect her asthma? Is it too polluted?
Wait and see how it turns out.
If you are going to buy. Buy the biggest Goddamn place you can afford and mortgage as much as you can with other loans, so if you do get terminated, leave the keys on the DFO's desk, We will make sure HSBC gets them.
Last edited by Mr. Bloggs; 24th Feb 2007 at 00:24. Reason: Can't Speel. Damn Gates
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For those of you about to join, you dont get the full purchasing amount until the 2 year mark. So you have plenty of time to decide. Just get here, get the courses out of the way and enjoy the lifestyle!
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Cruncher- you sound like you are selling cheap package holidays to Spain! C'mon mate tell everyone what it's really like. You sugar coat CX like all you do in Hong Kong is sit on a pristine white sandy beach all day sipping Martini's!
It ain't like that is it.
It ain't like that is it.
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CRUNchies,
The lifestyle that I can remember as a Cathay pilot was one that involved a lot of stress because of all the hoops that CX threw at me. Sim checks, ERAS grading system, upgrade tech interviews, review boards (The Star Chamber), and many of the A-hole checkers that went out of their way to ruin people lifes.
So tell me, what is it with that lifestyle that you enjoy so much? Taking big gulps with the kool-aid are ya?
24 hours to go before I'm banned from Pprune.
The lifestyle that I can remember as a Cathay pilot was one that involved a lot of stress because of all the hoops that CX threw at me. Sim checks, ERAS grading system, upgrade tech interviews, review boards (The Star Chamber), and many of the A-hole checkers that went out of their way to ruin people lifes.
So tell me, what is it with that lifestyle that you enjoy so much? Taking big gulps with the kool-aid are ya?
24 hours to go before I'm banned from Pprune.
CAN-NOT!! & regretCX
If you didn’t like it in CX and you found it stressful, good for you that you decided to leave. You won’t get any argument here. Where you will find an argument or disagreement with a lot on this forum is assuming just because CX wasn’t for you it isn’t for anyone else. Most of us here have experienced the problems you describe but most of us just get on with the job and put it behind us. We don’t dwell on it and let it eat us alive. I and many have chosen to live to a ripe old age. I don’t want to die from a heart attack because I am bitter, twisted and stressed all the time. Regular meditation works wonders.
By the way you won’t get banned from this forum if you follow the rules, something our mate tryhard found hard to grasp.
If you didn’t like it in CX and you found it stressful, good for you that you decided to leave. You won’t get any argument here. Where you will find an argument or disagreement with a lot on this forum is assuming just because CX wasn’t for you it isn’t for anyone else. Most of us here have experienced the problems you describe but most of us just get on with the job and put it behind us. We don’t dwell on it and let it eat us alive. I and many have chosen to live to a ripe old age. I don’t want to die from a heart attack because I am bitter, twisted and stressed all the time. Regular meditation works wonders.
By the way you won’t get banned from this forum if you follow the rules, something our mate tryhard found hard to grasp.
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I think what you are saying Titan is become a yes man and don't buck the system and you will fare well. I'm sorry but I'm not a yes man. I have a fundamental problem with people in high places that have no place being there! CX has this disease in chronic proportions.
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The Cathay ethos "The beatings will continue until morale improves"
(Never a truer word has ever been spoken when you are talking obout this company) Actual quote from Senior Cathay Captain.
(Never a truer word has ever been spoken when you are talking obout this company) Actual quote from Senior Cathay Captain.
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regretcx, et al,
you are right. Every other airline and every other job on earth is better than cx. Thanks for making that clear. I have met so many pilots that wish they worked 60hr weeks as lawyers, accountants, marketers, and I have never met any one in any other profession that envied mine!
you are right. Every other airline and every other job on earth is better than cx. Thanks for making that clear. I have met so many pilots that wish they worked 60hr weeks as lawyers, accountants, marketers, and I have never met any one in any other profession that envied mine!
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Is it possible to take the housing assistance as part of your salary and pay the tax on it?
Is this what commuting pilots do?
MAX
Is this what commuting pilots do?
MAX
Last edited by MAX; 24th Feb 2007 at 22:12.
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Southpac I understand there are already rules setting out on what is to happen if two officers use the same dwelling and if they were unsure did they ask the simple question to the housing department. If something sounds too good then it normally is.
As for buying it is like everything research the market in Hong Kong then do the maths and like everywhere when you first buy a house there is normally something that has to give for a short period of time but considering the levels are still not back to where they were previously then there is a fair chance there is still a way to go before it slows down.
Good Luck if you decide to buy and remember it is high up on the stress level gage so do it after you have the initial courses out of the way
As for buying it is like everything research the market in Hong Kong then do the maths and like everywhere when you first buy a house there is normally something that has to give for a short period of time but considering the levels are still not back to where they were previously then there is a fair chance there is still a way to go before it slows down.
Good Luck if you decide to buy and remember it is high up on the stress level gage so do it after you have the initial courses out of the way
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Housing is taxed. The owner gets taxed at a salary rate and the renter gets taxed at a reduced rate.
You can take a reduced housing with no questions asked. You do not need to show a lease or mortgage, and it is about half the normal allowance.
Cheers
FG
You can take a reduced housing with no questions asked. You do not need to show a lease or mortgage, and it is about half the normal allowance.
Cheers
FG