RP07 Revote?
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another Hard Read
Is it the GMA or the head of Cx scheduling that told the AOA rostering blokes that it is not a problem. Yes the AOA looks at the roster every month, but do they know all the details of the task at hand. You have a bunch of dedicated AOA blokes on a base with families. Do they know the roster as good as Cx.
I am sure Cx can and will roster 6 hr reserves, they will have no other choice. Will they like it, certainly not. It cuts down on flexibility and Cx needs and like flexibility. I don’t believe in having 30 days free reserve but what we really need is at some point in a 12 hour reserve, our FDP needs to start. In the name of safety, we cannot do a 12 hour reserve and then a 12 hour duty. You could be up for over 20 hours when you F it up and kill over 300 people, then the rules will change. Is it then we come to an agreement.
I simply cannot believe the HKCAD will allow this.
5-4-3
Oh yes, I just filled out my Cx survey last week telling them I wanted 5-4-3. I can only assume you filled yours not wanting 5-4-3. Now the company can roster accordingly. You see everyone is happy.
Just trying to point out the facts. Do you know what our route structure will be in 1-5 years with all the new aircraft coming. It certainly will not be as it is now. Do we have the protection in RP 07 or will you be just more Knackered (Yes dude, you are correct)?
Ask yourself why Cx is willing to put RP into our contracts? They know it is contractual if the court case continues. If our contracts are worth anything.
CX has done some great work with its IT Department in the past and continues to do so. Why not send me an email stating I have 55 hours and 6 days reserve. Have them publish all the reserve that is needed and I will just pick one. What I want and you want are different.
The task gets done and we have some control. Hell at least produce the lines and then request the lines. There has to be some flexibility on both side but you know CX. They will exploit it all to the nth degree.
Some of the problem is with people on the JRC i.e. Scheduling and the GMA. Their only experience is with CX and the way they do it. If you learn to swallow, you can rise to the top without much experience. That is what we face. They are worried, if we can have any control over our roster, then they will lose control. Control is something Cx holds very dearly.
It is up to us if we want a better agreement or not. We all have to live with the outcome.
IMHO, if RP 07 is available now, it will be available in the future.
If only I had a crystal ball or balls.
These 3 day all nighters to OZ, Karachi’s , Beijing and ULH are just killing me. As time goes on, it will be all back to back.
I am sure Cx can and will roster 6 hr reserves, they will have no other choice. Will they like it, certainly not. It cuts down on flexibility and Cx needs and like flexibility. I don’t believe in having 30 days free reserve but what we really need is at some point in a 12 hour reserve, our FDP needs to start. In the name of safety, we cannot do a 12 hour reserve and then a 12 hour duty. You could be up for over 20 hours when you F it up and kill over 300 people, then the rules will change. Is it then we come to an agreement.
I simply cannot believe the HKCAD will allow this.
5-4-3
Oh yes, I just filled out my Cx survey last week telling them I wanted 5-4-3. I can only assume you filled yours not wanting 5-4-3. Now the company can roster accordingly. You see everyone is happy.
Just trying to point out the facts. Do you know what our route structure will be in 1-5 years with all the new aircraft coming. It certainly will not be as it is now. Do we have the protection in RP 07 or will you be just more Knackered (Yes dude, you are correct)?
Ask yourself why Cx is willing to put RP into our contracts? They know it is contractual if the court case continues. If our contracts are worth anything.
CX has done some great work with its IT Department in the past and continues to do so. Why not send me an email stating I have 55 hours and 6 days reserve. Have them publish all the reserve that is needed and I will just pick one. What I want and you want are different.
The task gets done and we have some control. Hell at least produce the lines and then request the lines. There has to be some flexibility on both side but you know CX. They will exploit it all to the nth degree.
Some of the problem is with people on the JRC i.e. Scheduling and the GMA. Their only experience is with CX and the way they do it. If you learn to swallow, you can rise to the top without much experience. That is what we face. They are worried, if we can have any control over our roster, then they will lose control. Control is something Cx holds very dearly.
It is up to us if we want a better agreement or not. We all have to live with the outcome.
IMHO, if RP 07 is available now, it will be available in the future.
If only I had a crystal ball or balls.
These 3 day all nighters to OZ, Karachi’s , Beijing and ULH are just killing me. As time goes on, it will be all back to back.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And Again
NC, its about flight safety and fatigue issues. Maybe in my difficult read you could not see it.
As with most pilots at CX, it’s all about ME. I’m all right Jack.
If the pilots can work themselves silly and then get time off to commute to OZ, Europe or NA then I guess safety has nothing to do with it.
Those guys work themselves silly now to get time off but in the next year or so that will not be the case. They will still be worked silly by the way. The aircraft have to be crewed and reserve needs to be flexible. These two issues alone are big safety issues. Those are the facts.
Do we have any fatigue protection in RP 07? If your answer is no, then don’t vote for it.
If the company cannot be flexible in rostering and their reserve, it is a huge cost item. Why did Cx want it out? They don’t what 5-4-3 or the FDP to start on any reserve. It will cost them. So Yes there is a big cost and productivity for the company in RP07. I’m not an accountant but it is not that hard to see.
As long as you are able to bid for those long jokers it must be a good deal. For next couple of months anyway. I'm alright.
As with most pilots at CX, it’s all about ME. I’m all right Jack.
If the pilots can work themselves silly and then get time off to commute to OZ, Europe or NA then I guess safety has nothing to do with it.
Those guys work themselves silly now to get time off but in the next year or so that will not be the case. They will still be worked silly by the way. The aircraft have to be crewed and reserve needs to be flexible. These two issues alone are big safety issues. Those are the facts.
Do we have any fatigue protection in RP 07? If your answer is no, then don’t vote for it.
If the company cannot be flexible in rostering and their reserve, it is a huge cost item. Why did Cx want it out? They don’t what 5-4-3 or the FDP to start on any reserve. It will cost them. So Yes there is a big cost and productivity for the company in RP07. I’m not an accountant but it is not that hard to see.
As long as you are able to bid for those long jokers it must be a good deal. For next couple of months anyway. I'm alright.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: up here, everyone looks like ants!
Posts: 966
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bloggs, what you're missing here is that if does get rejected, then it's back to litigation. Litigation is time-consuming and expensive, and whilst on-going (failing an injunction - which is not likely in Hong Kongs' post-handover anti-labour environment) CX can do what ever they wish.
Now this may not seem to be such a big issue with you, but like NC, I do remember the "old" days of punitive rostering, next-to-F-all overtime and DT'ing till I was blue in the face. Cathays' lawyers have the (proven) ability to delay interminably whilst nit-picking through procedural issues (ask MG), so a two or three year "interim" arrangement is entirely possible.
The second issue is that litigation is expensive. I do not know what the AOA's reserves currently are, but they are bound to be inadequate. More subs rises will mean the inevitable flight of some due to financial pressures, forcing subs increases, causing more to flee...
I have been here for over 17 years now, and the current (RP04) system is the best I have ever experienced in terms of MY control of MY life and leisure time. I can request (and get) super-compacts, "G" days when I need them and more days off. I will concede that 5-4-3 is an issue, but I am getting twice that between (requested) "W" patterns.
Put this to bed and lets on with the bigger issue - our diminishing pay packets and salary differentiation.
I have voted FOR RP07 - and I urge all to do the same.
Now this may not seem to be such a big issue with you, but like NC, I do remember the "old" days of punitive rostering, next-to-F-all overtime and DT'ing till I was blue in the face. Cathays' lawyers have the (proven) ability to delay interminably whilst nit-picking through procedural issues (ask MG), so a two or three year "interim" arrangement is entirely possible.
The second issue is that litigation is expensive. I do not know what the AOA's reserves currently are, but they are bound to be inadequate. More subs rises will mean the inevitable flight of some due to financial pressures, forcing subs increases, causing more to flee...
I have been here for over 17 years now, and the current (RP04) system is the best I have ever experienced in terms of MY control of MY life and leisure time. I can request (and get) super-compacts, "G" days when I need them and more days off. I will concede that 5-4-3 is an issue, but I am getting twice that between (requested) "W" patterns.
Put this to bed and lets on with the bigger issue - our diminishing pay packets and salary differentiation.
I have voted FOR RP07 - and I urge all to do the same.
Last edited by Cpt. Underpants; 15th Jan 2007 at 00:21.
Cpt. Underpants
I have to agree with you and NC 100%. Personally I feel that the company wants us to vote down RP07 and RP07 mk2 because they want RP’s in company policy and the thing to go to court. Why would that be? Maybe they think they can win it? This isn’t and won’t be the same case that MG fought and from what I can see won’t have the same outcome either. RP’s must be kept in our CoS. In my opinion voting down RP07 and RP07 mk2 won’t achieve this and will probably sr*w us for ever.
I have to agree with you and NC 100%. Personally I feel that the company wants us to vote down RP07 and RP07 mk2 because they want RP’s in company policy and the thing to go to court. Why would that be? Maybe they think they can win it? This isn’t and won’t be the same case that MG fought and from what I can see won’t have the same outcome either. RP’s must be kept in our CoS. In my opinion voting down RP07 and RP07 mk2 won’t achieve this and will probably sr*w us for ever.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr Bloggs,
I agree with you on the fatigue issues. The 12hr reserves/18hr FDP are a killer. And it is possible for them to work us much harder without 5-4-3. But my understanding of this is that we would only have 5-4-3 until the end of the interim agreement? As I said many posts ago, I have had my best and WORST rosters under RP04 so I know the weaknesses. I haven't been senior enough to get the great rostering that others have enjoyed. Like any deal, there are good points and bad points. For me the good outweighs the bad...for you the other way around. Thank you for at least arguing with logic...I kinda get sick of the doom and gloom arguments. Fatigue is, and will increasingly become the biggest issue if we become undermanned. Maybe they will do so deliberately to make age 60 look good from a manning point of view...now I am getting paranoid;-)
cheers
PS I think you underestimate the rostering team. They do their own numbers and calculations. I trust the guys doing it...I know by the way my questions were answered that they know this stuff backwards. I can assure you they don't accept at face value what is said to them by management! There was a time when we trusted AOA GC members...
I agree with you on the fatigue issues. The 12hr reserves/18hr FDP are a killer. And it is possible for them to work us much harder without 5-4-3. But my understanding of this is that we would only have 5-4-3 until the end of the interim agreement? As I said many posts ago, I have had my best and WORST rosters under RP04 so I know the weaknesses. I haven't been senior enough to get the great rostering that others have enjoyed. Like any deal, there are good points and bad points. For me the good outweighs the bad...for you the other way around. Thank you for at least arguing with logic...I kinda get sick of the doom and gloom arguments. Fatigue is, and will increasingly become the biggest issue if we become undermanned. Maybe they will do so deliberately to make age 60 look good from a manning point of view...now I am getting paranoid;-)
cheers
PS I think you underestimate the rostering team. They do their own numbers and calculations. I trust the guys doing it...I know by the way my questions were answered that they know this stuff backwards. I can assure you they don't accept at face value what is said to them by management! There was a time when we trusted AOA GC members...
Last edited by Numero Crunchero; 14th Jan 2007 at 09:48. Reason: About the aoa rostering team.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree that fatigue could be an issue with RP07 although probably no more than with the fallback and at least this fact has been recognised and a couple of tools have been introduced to alleviate the problems.
At para 16.4
"other than in abnormal circumstances, crew members on reserve duty will normally be notified of a callout as soon as is practicable"
This has 2 expressions that I hate to see in such a document: "other than in abnormal circumstances" and "normally", both possibly subject to abuse. However, my experience so far is that we normally do get good notice of a callout and it's important as we move forward for everyone to flag up to the JRC when they're called out late so that the controllers are kept in check, neatly bringing me to the other tool used to alleviate the possible fatigue issues: The existance of the JRC. A sensible liasion between the pilots and the company regarding rostering has never existed in Cx before. This is a big step forward and something that we need to keep going.
In reality I think that the new reserve scheme is less tiring. If you've a 4 hour evening reserve to cover the long hauls for say 4 days on the trot, are you really going to have a sleep every afternoon just in case, thereby messing up your own body clock, call out or no? Probably not.
I'd rather have the 12 hour reserve with a commitment to let me know early if i'm going to be used, but I do realise this is just my own personal preference!
At para 16.4
"other than in abnormal circumstances, crew members on reserve duty will normally be notified of a callout as soon as is practicable"
This has 2 expressions that I hate to see in such a document: "other than in abnormal circumstances" and "normally", both possibly subject to abuse. However, my experience so far is that we normally do get good notice of a callout and it's important as we move forward for everyone to flag up to the JRC when they're called out late so that the controllers are kept in check, neatly bringing me to the other tool used to alleviate the possible fatigue issues: The existance of the JRC. A sensible liasion between the pilots and the company regarding rostering has never existed in Cx before. This is a big step forward and something that we need to keep going.
In reality I think that the new reserve scheme is less tiring. If you've a 4 hour evening reserve to cover the long hauls for say 4 days on the trot, are you really going to have a sleep every afternoon just in case, thereby messing up your own body clock, call out or no? Probably not.
I'd rather have the 12 hour reserve with a commitment to let me know early if i'm going to be used, but I do realise this is just my own personal preference!
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With that attitude no wonder B Scale was introduced and your conditions have worsened over the last 17 years. But I think that is a different thread.
Capt. Underpants you logic makes perfect sense, what was I thinking. When it all gets too hard or expensive, just give it away. It can’t get much worse.
You have to be right, you have seniority.
At least I can still request my days off. We won again.
Your diminishing pay package is much better than most here, so don’t expect guys to be jumping in to help you better your conditions. Go talk to some of your older 17 plus year Captains extending on lower conditions. But again, that another thread.
Capt. Underpants you logic makes perfect sense, what was I thinking. When it all gets too hard or expensive, just give it away. It can’t get much worse.
You have to be right, you have seniority.
At least I can still request my days off. We won again.
Your diminishing pay package is much better than most here, so don’t expect guys to be jumping in to help you better your conditions. Go talk to some of your older 17 plus year Captains extending on lower conditions. But again, that another thread.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: up here, everyone looks like ants!
Posts: 966
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When it all gets too hard or expensive, just give it away
The sky won't fall, jets will continue to take off and land, you'll have your 5-4-3, and the turd floor will laugh for weeks.
Go ahead, cut off your nose to spite your face...you're proving nothing except how short-sighted we are. Go ahead, show all TT's mates at the club that we are "million dollar morons".
Last edited by Cpt. Underpants; 14th Jan 2007 at 23:00.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How short sighted??? That's an interesting comment from someone that voted in B scale and then has seen his Cos reduced incrementally since. How was that move for your future earnings underpants? And loopde must have a lot of FAITH in his superiors to give it up for the team in his comments about the words "normally and abnormal circumstances". To me it sounds like the word....discretion. What does that word mean here at CX? Is it an accurate picture of what the crew really wants to do? or another decision that could be scrutinized by those above....that brings unwanted attention to oneself? maybe similar to not having to contractually fly cargo planes, but for the sake of ones career and upgrade potential, necessary? And your spiff about the color of your pin underpants, yes it may be yellow, but I wouldn't suggest that your part of the same team that have an entire career to deal with here at CX. I suspect your looking for a way to better the last few years of your career here rostering wise, without any interest of the potential downside. Do you care about the people below you and their career? no need to answer, we have already seen proof, and actions tend to speak a little louder. In conclusion....for those simple minded folk out there....if A scale is pro RP07, you have a pretty good idea that it is not the best plan for the rest of us long term. Some other ideas to ponder......most A scaler's truly believe (or want you to believe) that extending the retirement age to 60 will allow the rest of us to upgrade quicker!!! I'm still trying to figure that one out. And how many times have I heard that having DEFO for the pax fleet will not have any negative impact on upgrading our current SO's? As if spending more time on a lower payscale is better for their career earnings. I've said it before and I'll say it again...How many times has CX management actually came before the AOA with a proposal that actually benefits the pilot group? How many times? And how many proposals has this pilot group accepted, and then seen their Cos go down the sh*tter? Have we not learned anything?
Join Date: May 2002
Location: up here, everyone looks like ants!
Posts: 966
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
voted in B scale
your part of the same team that have an entire career to deal with here at CX
Do you care about the people below you and their career
extending the retirement age to 60
How many times has CX management actually came before the AOA with a proposal that actually benefits the pilot group
Have we not learned anything?
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Over There
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
what you're missing here is that if does get rejected, then it's back to litigation.
CX can do what ever they wish.
I will concede that 5-4-3 is an issue, but I am getting twice that between (requested) "W" patterns.
I concede that "A" days are good for commuters but realise that the company is getting 2 for 1 reserves with "A" days. Also, most commuters are ULH drivers and the fallback will pay you credit for reserves to go on top of your current 84 hours a month schedule so how many reserves do you think you will get?
that's right! No longer on the fence, it's No/No!
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: somewhere
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is all so funny , I have a needle and thread on standby for when my sides split. Since joining this company I have consistently been required to do MORE for LESS. I fully expect this equation to continue until , just before I retire (or expire through exhaustion), I will be paying the company for the privilege of coming to work.
All this has occured whilst the AOA has been looking after my best interests!
The AOA ,when it did nothing after the 49 ers were sacked, threw the rope over the rafters , put its' head in the noose and kicked away the stool. All this voting for RP07 mark one or mark two or the fallback is just the reflex foot twitching of a corpse that has already had its' neck snapped.
Vote away, will make not a jot of difference. May make you feel as though you have some influence over your future.
No, I do not have a vote. But I do have an opinion.
No thanks, wouldn't want a vote with this association.
All this has occured whilst the AOA has been looking after my best interests!
The AOA ,when it did nothing after the 49 ers were sacked, threw the rope over the rafters , put its' head in the noose and kicked away the stool. All this voting for RP07 mark one or mark two or the fallback is just the reflex foot twitching of a corpse that has already had its' neck snapped.
Vote away, will make not a jot of difference. May make you feel as though you have some influence over your future.
No, I do not have a vote. But I do have an opinion.
No thanks, wouldn't want a vote with this association.
Last edited by kenfoggo; 15th Jan 2007 at 08:44.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Over There
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WRONG. B scale was imposed.
and obviously accepted by A scale pilots!!!
Don't presume to know anything about me or my priorities. I answered the call when it was made, and did more than asked in helping a great number of the 49'ers find alternate employment through my (substantial) contacts in other airlines.
yoohoo!!! You deserve that yellow medal you speak so fondly of. You're absolutely right, I don't know why I ever doubted the solidarity and strength of the AOA. The outcome has certainly been desirable for those involved. Usually a UNION is ABLE to get the company to re-employ the unfortunate in getting their original job back, and keep it from happening again. Here at CX, everyone skirts around with their d@ck between their legs scared of what can happen next, and thus always accepting these sh*t deals.
The alternative is DE Captains on all fleets. Trust me, this is a great truth. The jets WILL fly, with internally promoted crew or without. Now, what would you prefer to see? O8 is already in CX's sights as an immediate 3+ aircraft and all crews that go with it..
And this is a better option than transforming a ridiculous CT department? Its a great idea, hire people with little or no experience in the CX system, and think they somehow are better qualified and more suitable to do the job than someone from within!!! Another brilliant idea that makes so much sense.
You clearly haven't been here that long or you don't receive any AOA mailings...why aren't you a member? Bitching all you like will not get your vote on the ballot.
AOA mailings? are you serious. What proposals are you receiving that appear to be so lucrative and beneficial for the pilot group?
It's about time you learned to recognise a better deal when you see one
Once again....a better deal for who???
And a little off topic, but how can a union and pilot group ACCEPT pilots that brake union bans....like the 140 or so that currently wear the uniform. Why should these scabs be able to enjoy their jobs, when it's by their actions that makes this union so ineffective. They should be treated like traitors, not colleagues. We need to stop acting like castrated, spineless, cowards and start protecting our careers, profession, and Cos. The only current direction started well before my time, is to try ineffectively to HOLD on to what we have, only to see management chip away, while watching record profits, growth, and awards pass before us on a constant basis. If this isn't a time to start the improvement......WHEN? Ambitious plans and hard work call for proper compensation. Another bit that has yet to be observed, and could be just paranoia on my part (however I seriously doubt it) is how profit sharing is going to pan out this year. My guess is that the old percentage would have been triggered; however, with the new plan where we get something every year is in effect and pay out LESS than what we would have gotten. But I guess we should just be happy that they won't just go and by another DC3 to rig the numbers. It's just a guess, as I do not spend time crunching numbers, but it wouldn't surprise me the least. Another possible example of managements desire to take care of us. Smoke, mirrors and a crustacean like pilot group......utopia for the swire princes.
and obviously accepted by A scale pilots!!!
Don't presume to know anything about me or my priorities. I answered the call when it was made, and did more than asked in helping a great number of the 49'ers find alternate employment through my (substantial) contacts in other airlines.
yoohoo!!! You deserve that yellow medal you speak so fondly of. You're absolutely right, I don't know why I ever doubted the solidarity and strength of the AOA. The outcome has certainly been desirable for those involved. Usually a UNION is ABLE to get the company to re-employ the unfortunate in getting their original job back, and keep it from happening again. Here at CX, everyone skirts around with their d@ck between their legs scared of what can happen next, and thus always accepting these sh*t deals.
The alternative is DE Captains on all fleets. Trust me, this is a great truth. The jets WILL fly, with internally promoted crew or without. Now, what would you prefer to see? O8 is already in CX's sights as an immediate 3+ aircraft and all crews that go with it..
And this is a better option than transforming a ridiculous CT department? Its a great idea, hire people with little or no experience in the CX system, and think they somehow are better qualified and more suitable to do the job than someone from within!!! Another brilliant idea that makes so much sense.
You clearly haven't been here that long or you don't receive any AOA mailings...why aren't you a member? Bitching all you like will not get your vote on the ballot.
AOA mailings? are you serious. What proposals are you receiving that appear to be so lucrative and beneficial for the pilot group?
It's about time you learned to recognise a better deal when you see one
Once again....a better deal for who???
And a little off topic, but how can a union and pilot group ACCEPT pilots that brake union bans....like the 140 or so that currently wear the uniform. Why should these scabs be able to enjoy their jobs, when it's by their actions that makes this union so ineffective. They should be treated like traitors, not colleagues. We need to stop acting like castrated, spineless, cowards and start protecting our careers, profession, and Cos. The only current direction started well before my time, is to try ineffectively to HOLD on to what we have, only to see management chip away, while watching record profits, growth, and awards pass before us on a constant basis. If this isn't a time to start the improvement......WHEN? Ambitious plans and hard work call for proper compensation. Another bit that has yet to be observed, and could be just paranoia on my part (however I seriously doubt it) is how profit sharing is going to pan out this year. My guess is that the old percentage would have been triggered; however, with the new plan where we get something every year is in effect and pay out LESS than what we would have gotten. But I guess we should just be happy that they won't just go and by another DC3 to rig the numbers. It's just a guess, as I do not spend time crunching numbers, but it wouldn't surprise me the least. Another possible example of managements desire to take care of us. Smoke, mirrors and a crustacean like pilot group......utopia for the swire princes.
Last edited by spongebob_pilot; 15th Jan 2007 at 05:24.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I find it unbelievable....and pathetic, and NEVER should have happened. It's just another clear sign of the solidarity of the union and its pilots..... managements wet dream. However, as similar as it may appear, they didn't accept employment when an BAN ON EMPLOYMENT was in place Judging by your remarks, you may be one of those turds that crossed the picket lines? If not, what do your think of them? I can only say Well done! Super job in making it past the interview! Maybe they can sign up to continually cut the legs from the group that they now belong! I can only say, that this UNION needs a serious overhaul. I'm sure the only response that they may have is they were only looking out for THEMSELVES, and was their only opportunity to get out of a turbo prop or a baron or whatever they may have been flying, and they'll look for nods of encouragement because now they have a better life and fly better equipment......but if it wasn't for uneducated, self absorbed, scabs this airline would be better off. Unfortunately people here don't view crossing the lines as serious acts, as elsewhere. Scabs should be ignored and treated accordingly on the flight deck and labeled as black sheep. It should be unbearable coming to work....period. Even though they will maintain their job, they should not be able to enjoy it. That is what I hope for their type.......pure misery for the rest of their career at CX. Whether that can happen or not is a pure mystery, for it takes leadership and principles to foster an effective UNION. These are obvious components missing at the present time. And if you are one of the few and from America, as your name implies, and are looking to get on with Fedex or another ALPA carrier, hopefully they will do their research on when employment was taken and under what conditions. Then, and probably only then, will you continually regret your prior career decisions.
Why does this happen one may ask. Something like solidarity and one for all, should not seem like such a foreign abstract idea for what was once a respected, educated profession. Is it that difficult to comprehend that these are our only strengths as a group? And I emphasize group!! And since the AOA has a terrible track record, maybe its time for some change, because the obvious direction is IMHO not very promising. I don't know, maybe its just their definition of NEGOTIATION vs mine, or their idea of a good deal vs mine. Or maybe, and I doubt that I'm alone, the union is currently a pathetic example of what should be driving our wages, rostering, and lifestyle in a positive direction. Not this sit down, roll over, and play dead nonsense, with a few letters that then try to convince the majority that this is the BEST deal that we could arrive at.
Why does this happen one may ask. Something like solidarity and one for all, should not seem like such a foreign abstract idea for what was once a respected, educated profession. Is it that difficult to comprehend that these are our only strengths as a group? And I emphasize group!! And since the AOA has a terrible track record, maybe its time for some change, because the obvious direction is IMHO not very promising. I don't know, maybe its just their definition of NEGOTIATION vs mine, or their idea of a good deal vs mine. Or maybe, and I doubt that I'm alone, the union is currently a pathetic example of what should be driving our wages, rostering, and lifestyle in a positive direction. Not this sit down, roll over, and play dead nonsense, with a few letters that then try to convince the majority that this is the BEST deal that we could arrive at.
Last edited by spongebob_pilot; 15th Jan 2007 at 06:52.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: a few places
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The comments you make have been done to death on previous threads so I will not continue them here.
You must live a very unhappy life in CX, do yourself a favor and either become president of the AOA or leave and work for a company that doesn't screw you like you say CX does.
I will now have to vote yes for RP07
You must live a very unhappy life in CX, do yourself a favor and either become president of the AOA or leave and work for a company that doesn't screw you like you say CX does.
I will now have to vote yes for RP07
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If CX management was happy to return to the Fallback position why did they agree to an extension of RP07 and a revote on the issue.
Why not enforce the original vote result and return to the Fallback if this is what they really want?
I still believe the company wants RP07.
Why not enforce the original vote result and return to the Fallback if this is what they really want?
I still believe the company wants RP07.
Sponge,
Far be it for me to try to increase your powers of absorption...but..
One does not have to be a great student of history to realise that the AOA is not a union, never has been and never will be. It was only when it thought it should be that this whole convoluted mess got out of control.
As alluded to...well covered in posts going back years.
I did enjoy your policy statement though. Problem is you need to find a unionised airline..and CX is not one.
History is history. Most of us have moved on. Doesn't mean we forget what happened but you must realise that preventing further detrioration in T&C's will not come from any form of militancy.
It will not be easy given the current CEO and a number of senior management with guilty consciences.
What we had, came about by simple supply and demand and a need Swire had at the time to keep people in uncertain times.
The stars are aligning again. Rattling the cage will not help...only reasoned debate.
I agree with you on the solidairity bit but suspect that is too much to ask of Generation Y.
I hope all that bile doesn't give you an ulcer.
Far be it for me to try to increase your powers of absorption...but..
One does not have to be a great student of history to realise that the AOA is not a union, never has been and never will be. It was only when it thought it should be that this whole convoluted mess got out of control.
As alluded to...well covered in posts going back years.
I did enjoy your policy statement though. Problem is you need to find a unionised airline..and CX is not one.
History is history. Most of us have moved on. Doesn't mean we forget what happened but you must realise that preventing further detrioration in T&C's will not come from any form of militancy.
It will not be easy given the current CEO and a number of senior management with guilty consciences.
What we had, came about by simple supply and demand and a need Swire had at the time to keep people in uncertain times.
The stars are aligning again. Rattling the cage will not help...only reasoned debate.
I agree with you on the solidairity bit but suspect that is too much to ask of Generation Y.
I hope all that bile doesn't give you an ulcer.