DEFO pax
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DEFO pax
Just been unexpectedly offered DEFO Pax, as opposed to Freighter, based in Sydney
1. Is there any bad feeling towards guys accepting these positions/ is it cutting some SO's lunch?
2. Any typical roster info would be appreciated.ie. trips /month, days away/at home etc.
3. Is commuting from NZ possible/practical
Cheers SHPW2
1. Is there any bad feeling towards guys accepting these positions/ is it cutting some SO's lunch?
2. Any typical roster info would be appreciated.ie. trips /month, days away/at home etc.
3. Is commuting from NZ possible/practical
Cheers SHPW2
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SHPW2, I would not believe that pessimistic response above. I can see you spending a couple of extra days in HK per trip but I would guess you will still see 12-15 days home per month.
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Aussie,
DEFO actually costs the company money...it will still take around 9years to get to CN but as a DEFO you will be earning more money than following the SO/FO path.
But for the forseeable future the company is limited by training...so DEFO saves them a course. I deally they would only employ DEFOs from now on but they can't get enough sectors/landings for FOs if there were no SOs.
I don't believe there will be any animosity...still a DoJ airline job whether you join as a DEFO /Freighter FO/SO.
cheers
DEFO actually costs the company money...it will still take around 9years to get to CN but as a DEFO you will be earning more money than following the SO/FO path.
But for the forseeable future the company is limited by training...so DEFO saves them a course. I deally they would only employ DEFOs from now on but they can't get enough sectors/landings for FOs if there were no SOs.
I don't believe there will be any animosity...still a DoJ airline job whether you join as a DEFO /Freighter FO/SO.
cheers
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SHPW2 no animosity from me.... but I have to say, you are going to join CX on a B scale as apposed to a C scale. You are doing this because we voted against CoS 07.... so at the risk of sounding like a militant union bloke, if you don't join the AOA straight away (support us as we supported you)..... well then if I happen to fly with you, don't expect me to buy you a beer at the end of the day!
Numero Crunchero
I think you will find that most direct entry DESO’s will be better off after Tax in Hong Kong than a DEFO pax or freighter guy on a base earning base pay after tax. I do accept though that it could be tough for a married guy with kids of school age in Hong Kong on an SO wage.
it will still take around 9years to get to CN but as a DEFO you will be earning more money than following the SO/FO path.
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No, you don't have to be a Canadian to be based in YVR; an American can be based there and commute, just as a Canadian can be based in the US.
Cheers
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NO direct entry FO based HKG... (correct me if I am wrong...) Only certain outports... As for days off, patterns etc etc... Believe the CONTRACT not the promises....
Cheerio from across the street.. ;-)
Cheerio from across the street.. ;-)
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Howdy 404 - you been away?
Aus DEFO will get $10K per month plus 15.5%. Correct me if I am wrong but year 1 SO gets $35K HKD/month plus 15.5%. So after tax I would guess about $7K for the Oz guy and just over $30K(say $5K AUD) for HKG guy. I can assure from personal experience that the CoL is considerably higher in HKG than Oz when you have a family.
You should know better than to disagree with me on numbers;-)
The DEFO can come up to HKG in 3(or 4?) years and he will be on almost SFO salary and able to use housing allowance to buy a place if he wishes. The only way a HKG based SO can be better off is if he buys a place at the 2 year mark! After 4 years in the company he is now on JFO or FO1 whilst the DEFO is on FO4/SFO1 either on the base still or in HKG.
So I still assert that you are financially better off joining as a DEFO.
Aus DEFO will get $10K per month plus 15.5%. Correct me if I am wrong but year 1 SO gets $35K HKD/month plus 15.5%. So after tax I would guess about $7K for the Oz guy and just over $30K(say $5K AUD) for HKG guy. I can assure from personal experience that the CoL is considerably higher in HKG than Oz when you have a family.
You should know better than to disagree with me on numbers;-)
The DEFO can come up to HKG in 3(or 4?) years and he will be on almost SFO salary and able to use housing allowance to buy a place if he wishes. The only way a HKG based SO can be better off is if he buys a place at the 2 year mark! After 4 years in the company he is now on JFO or FO1 whilst the DEFO is on FO4/SFO1 either on the base still or in HKG.
So I still assert that you are financially better off joining as a DEFO.
Numero Crunchero
No, busy working. You have left out that a DESO can get up to HKD$24150.00per month in housing assistance (50% of the rent free zone) on top of their basic year one monthly salary of HKD$32213.00 which they can use to pay for a rental property or pay off a mortgage if they buy a property in Hong Kong. So a DESO on HKD$56363.00 gross per month is about AUD$7500.00 per month after tax. After 2 years they go to the full rent free zone allowance of about HKD$48000.00 per month plus a basic monthly salary of HKD$40410.00. This is a monthly income in AUD of about $11800.00 net. A DEFO on a Sydney base must stay on that base for a minimum of four years. So if we say the DESO has had the full housing allowance for three years and is using it to pay off a mortgage, without going into the exact numbers I would say they are better off that the DEFO pax guy.
Would a CPA disagree with an MBA on numbers? I always like debating numbers.
You know me Crunchero.
No, busy working. You have left out that a DESO can get up to HKD$24150.00per month in housing assistance (50% of the rent free zone) on top of their basic year one monthly salary of HKD$32213.00 which they can use to pay for a rental property or pay off a mortgage if they buy a property in Hong Kong. So a DESO on HKD$56363.00 gross per month is about AUD$7500.00 per month after tax. After 2 years they go to the full rent free zone allowance of about HKD$48000.00 per month plus a basic monthly salary of HKD$40410.00. This is a monthly income in AUD of about $11800.00 net. A DEFO on a Sydney base must stay on that base for a minimum of four years. So if we say the DESO has had the full housing allowance for three years and is using it to pay off a mortgage, without going into the exact numbers I would say they are better off that the DEFO pax guy.
Would a CPA disagree with an MBA on numbers? I always like debating numbers.
You know me Crunchero.
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IMHO the introduction of the based DEFO is going to have a great impact on currently employed SOs. However you look at it, the DEFOs must be delaying 'my' upgrade to FO - because there will be (far) fewer right hand seats available, and I expect that CX are not going to make me a JFO just to keep me happy. There is plenty of banter on this forum about the SO kontiki tours (much of which is true), but most of us do want to upgrade sooner rather than later. Moreover, many of us joined knowing that the expansion was happening, so we turned down freighter positions - on the expectation that the SO time would be reducing. DEFO pax can only delay us.
There is a further potential problem with future SYD bases for those of us in HK. Will there be an opportunity now for us to take a SYD base when we have been upgraded, or is it now only available to DEFO entrants? In short, will HK based crew be barred from bidding for SYD in future? Again, I was - and still am - happy to do my HK time, but it was always good to know that I could go home for a while later if required - especially helpful for those of us with kids.
Oh yes, I know that I could bid to go on the DEFO route, but as I AM one of the people that bought a property in HK prior to the 1 year point, if I were to sell it now I would effectively lose my deposit as the stamp duty / bond fees are pretty heavy. Not a hit that I can take on a SOs salary.
Basically not whinging - I was eyes open when I turned down the freighter to come to HK. Pity I didn't have all the information tho' as I would certainly have played things differently whilst I was here.
Overall, I struggle to see how currently serving DESOs who are on page 3 and lower on the seniority list are not going to be affected massively by this policy. It has already been stated by the company that next year there will < 100 SOs upgraded, and by the end of next year the SYD base will be filled with our new FO joiners. Are we approaching the era of the professional SO?
Oh, I voted NO for CoS07 and DEFO too. So were now?
There is a further potential problem with future SYD bases for those of us in HK. Will there be an opportunity now for us to take a SYD base when we have been upgraded, or is it now only available to DEFO entrants? In short, will HK based crew be barred from bidding for SYD in future? Again, I was - and still am - happy to do my HK time, but it was always good to know that I could go home for a while later if required - especially helpful for those of us with kids.
Oh yes, I know that I could bid to go on the DEFO route, but as I AM one of the people that bought a property in HK prior to the 1 year point, if I were to sell it now I would effectively lose my deposit as the stamp duty / bond fees are pretty heavy. Not a hit that I can take on a SOs salary.
Basically not whinging - I was eyes open when I turned down the freighter to come to HK. Pity I didn't have all the information tho' as I would certainly have played things differently whilst I was here.
Overall, I struggle to see how currently serving DESOs who are on page 3 and lower on the seniority list are not going to be affected massively by this policy. It has already been stated by the company that next year there will < 100 SOs upgraded, and by the end of next year the SYD base will be filled with our new FO joiners. Are we approaching the era of the professional SO?
Oh, I voted NO for CoS07 and DEFO too. So were now?
Kane Toed
I agree with most of what you have said. The only point I have to make is with the DEFO vote. Did you think you were voting on whether to allow the company to employ DEFO’s or “C” scale? The title of the vote was most misleading because what we were voting on was “C” scale COS for new joiners. It had nothing to do with DEFO’s. The company has always been able to employ DEFO’s on the pax fleet onto a HK base under COS99. How they are getting away with having them on a base though is another matter and debate.
I agree with most of what you have said. The only point I have to make is with the DEFO vote. Did you think you were voting on whether to allow the company to employ DEFO’s or “C” scale? The title of the vote was most misleading because what we were voting on was “C” scale COS for new joiners. It had nothing to do with DEFO’s. The company has always been able to employ DEFO’s on the pax fleet onto a HK base under COS99. How they are getting away with having them on a base though is another matter and debate.
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Queensland Frog I agree with 404 on this. It was about CoS. What we have now is the company doing what they have been doing since 1996 or earlier. Theoretically, cause i know there is some admin b*s involved, no SO should be disadvantaged financially...that doesn't mean to imply you won't be disadvantaged in how long it takes to get the window seat though!
I don't feel comfortable in this position, and I assure this is my opinion not some management spiel, but I could argue that the employment of DEFOs could speed up your upgrade. Why? Because the system is currently training course limited. so every DEFO pretty much saves a course...but with a time lag. I mean that whether he joins as SO or DEFO he has a course...but 3 years from now, the DEFO doesn't need an upgrade to FO course.
The reality....if I was a mean businessman running the company, with no regard to my personnel, I would recruit almost non stop DEFOs and keep upgrading SOs until the last minute...years from now.
Lets hope that they don't take the pure business approach.
404
you have brought in housing...I could bring in that education can cost more in hkg(after subsidy) than back home. I think the best way to sort this is for you to remember there were lots of CPAs running Enron and almost no MBAs running anything...then make sure we have a decent overnight and sort it out over half a dozen beers:-)
Look forward to it...and if you convince me, I will pay for the beers;-)
I don't feel comfortable in this position, and I assure this is my opinion not some management spiel, but I could argue that the employment of DEFOs could speed up your upgrade. Why? Because the system is currently training course limited. so every DEFO pretty much saves a course...but with a time lag. I mean that whether he joins as SO or DEFO he has a course...but 3 years from now, the DEFO doesn't need an upgrade to FO course.
The reality....if I was a mean businessman running the company, with no regard to my personnel, I would recruit almost non stop DEFOs and keep upgrading SOs until the last minute...years from now.
Lets hope that they don't take the pure business approach.
404
you have brought in housing...I could bring in that education can cost more in hkg(after subsidy) than back home. I think the best way to sort this is for you to remember there were lots of CPAs running Enron and almost no MBAs running anything...then make sure we have a decent overnight and sort it out over half a dozen beers:-)
Look forward to it...and if you convince me, I will pay for the beers;-)
Numero Crunchero
I look at what is left over after all the expenses are paid and what assets have been accumulated along the way. The only thing that is really going against all Australians, Kiwi’s, etc except Americans is how much we have lost over the last 4 – 5 years with the slide in the US dollar and hence the HK dollar compared to our home countries. It’s been effectively about a 35% pay cut since I joined in 2000.
CPA and Enron in the same sentence? Ouch that wasn’t fair.
Looking forward to the beers you will be paying for though. 
I look at what is left over after all the expenses are paid and what assets have been accumulated along the way. The only thing that is really going against all Australians, Kiwi’s, etc except Americans is how much we have lost over the last 4 – 5 years with the slide in the US dollar and hence the HK dollar compared to our home countries. It’s been effectively about a 35% pay cut since I joined in 2000.
CPA and Enron in the same sentence? Ouch that wasn’t fair.
Looking forward to the beers you will be paying for though.
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IMHO it comes down to the financial position you are in and whether you have a family or not.
If you are single and have a small amount of savings you can buy a small place and take your chances on the real estate market here. No guarantees there as we all know. However at the moment still a good bet.
If you are with family then you need a bigger chunk of your own money to afford a big enough place. As numero crunch pointed out if you have kids (as I do) you pay alot out of your own pocket.
So if you are single SO Hong Kong. If you are a family DEFO where ever unless you got a large chunk of change to plunk down on a flat. Although you might just love Asia !! My family are really happy here, but will have to go home soon as the little one is getting pollution related breathing problems. Really too bad as Hong Kong has been great (albeit expensive) for us.
As for the DEFOs an how they will affect SOs. There is no way that it will be quicker now to upgrade as an SO 4 years will continue to be the norm.
I feel for my SO friends as it really is bad timing for them. Also to add insult to injury the company is offering DEFO slots to SOs but they have to quit and rejoin loosing their seniority in the process. That is just wrong !
FG
If you are single and have a small amount of savings you can buy a small place and take your chances on the real estate market here. No guarantees there as we all know. However at the moment still a good bet.
If you are with family then you need a bigger chunk of your own money to afford a big enough place. As numero crunch pointed out if you have kids (as I do) you pay alot out of your own pocket.
So if you are single SO Hong Kong. If you are a family DEFO where ever unless you got a large chunk of change to plunk down on a flat. Although you might just love Asia !! My family are really happy here, but will have to go home soon as the little one is getting pollution related breathing problems. Really too bad as Hong Kong has been great (albeit expensive) for us.
As for the DEFOs an how they will affect SOs. There is no way that it will be quicker now to upgrade as an SO 4 years will continue to be the norm.
I feel for my SO friends as it really is bad timing for them. Also to add insult to injury the company is offering DEFO slots to SOs but they have to quit and rejoin loosing their seniority in the process. That is just wrong !
FG
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Okay NC, I have spent some time thinking about your reply, and, even though I know I'm pretty slow in the synapse department, I need you to clarify EXACTLY how:
The first point I have issue with:
How so? Are you suggesting that SYD based FOs are not going to come to HK to do the 'bus groundschool and a sim / flying syllabus? Freighter DEFOs currently do a groundschool that is the same duration as the SO new joiners, a sim syllabus and then of course base training before the minimum of 25 sectors flying under supervision. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding how training works, but surely that is a greater burden than the eight sims (+ 1 consolidation sim) done by new SO before s/he starts the LFUS syllabus? Moreover, SO LFUS could be done by a TFO.
The second point must surely be the actual numbers coming in. Again please tell me (and I really want to hear good news) how the imminent entry of these DEFOs will help. If in 2007 CX has a requirement for 150 FOs and fills 50 of those slots with new joiner FOs, then they are going to upgrade 33% fewer SOs than if the need was met internally. Not only that, but these new joiner FOs have a seniority number lower than mine, so they can't be considered for command until I pass them - so they are effectively 'log jamming' the system.
We have seen that some people have had a problem with JFO upgrade after a long delay as a SO. I know that we get 12 hours / year 'hands on' simulator training to keep sharp, but that is going to be woefully inadequate if we end up doing 5 or 6 years as the chief bunk maker.
the employment of DEFOs could speed up your upgrade
every DEFO pretty much saves a course
The second point must surely be the actual numbers coming in. Again please tell me (and I really want to hear good news) how the imminent entry of these DEFOs will help. If in 2007 CX has a requirement for 150 FOs and fills 50 of those slots with new joiner FOs, then they are going to upgrade 33% fewer SOs than if the need was met internally. Not only that, but these new joiner FOs have a seniority number lower than mine, so they can't be considered for command until I pass them - so they are effectively 'log jamming' the system.
We have seen that some people have had a problem with JFO upgrade after a long delay as a SO. I know that we get 12 hours / year 'hands on' simulator training to keep sharp, but that is going to be woefully inadequate if we end up doing 5 or 6 years as the chief bunk maker.