Crofts/VETA implications
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Crofts/VETA implications
The Crofts/VETA case has some interesting implications for CX and their London based crew. Under UK (in fact EU) law, you can no longer retire someone on the grounds of age. This means that UK based Captains cannot be retired by the company simply because they have reached the age of 55. As long as their licences are valid for the areas in which the company operates, they must be retained. Furthermore, they must be retained on their existing contracts. To do otherwise would be constructive dismissal. This means that London based Captains could be retained on A-scales, including Prov Fund whilst Captains on other bases have to accept B-scales without Prov Fund.
On 23 NOV 06, the ICAO age limit for Captains is to be raised to 65. From that date, unless a pilot is demonstrably incompetent, he cannot be retired until he is 65. Bad news for BA and CX FOs, in the short term, but good news for Captains and their families.
The AOA have wanted A-scales to be retained for the over 55s. It looks as if there is an open goal in front of them………but don’t hold your breath.
On 23 NOV 06, the ICAO age limit for Captains is to be raised to 65. From that date, unless a pilot is demonstrably incompetent, he cannot be retired until he is 65. Bad news for BA and CX FOs, in the short term, but good news for Captains and their families.
The AOA have wanted A-scales to be retained for the over 55s. It looks as if there is an open goal in front of them………but don’t hold your breath.
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Contrary to the advise we received in 1992, we may have to operate a PAYE (Pay As You Earn) system in which CX will withhold the UK tax. We will do our best to torture the pilots in the UK whether in the AOA/CPU or not. We will withhold all the UK tax that is required. We cannot calculate the Hong Kong tax, so both will have to be paid and the employee will apply for a refund from the appropriate authorities. This will mean less money in your bank account. You will have the AOA/CPU to blame not Cathay Pacific.
We are now working with our UK advisors, same used in 1992, to make your life as miserable as possible. Please give us time.
Even when we lose, we win.
As for the UK Pilots extending beyond the age of 55, it will not happen on A Scale conditions. If those pilots opt for extension beyond the age of 55, they will be based other than in the UK. We will have to confer with our advisors, but the extension beyond 55 is not possible on A Scale conditions.
Most UK based pilots approaching age 55 would only be too happy to sign away their rights to A Scale salary as most are ex-managers or Checkers. We cannot foresee any of the UK pilots challenging us and we cannot foresee the current AOA funding such a case or the individual. We will advise the AOA accordingly.
The Pilots in the UK signed a contract, which ends at the age of 55. We will terminate that contract, not on the basis of age, but on the term of the contract. If one will want to work with Cathay Pacific at the end of this contract, a new contract will have to be signed. It is simple contract law.
If we are threaten by this, Cathay Pacific will exercise our right to terminate your contract with 3 months notice and if you decide to take us to court, we will happily pay the 70,000 Sterling at the end of the Tribunal. This is the more inexpensive way than to pay A Scale.
The Management
We are now working with our UK advisors, same used in 1992, to make your life as miserable as possible. Please give us time.
Even when we lose, we win.
As for the UK Pilots extending beyond the age of 55, it will not happen on A Scale conditions. If those pilots opt for extension beyond the age of 55, they will be based other than in the UK. We will have to confer with our advisors, but the extension beyond 55 is not possible on A Scale conditions.
Most UK based pilots approaching age 55 would only be too happy to sign away their rights to A Scale salary as most are ex-managers or Checkers. We cannot foresee any of the UK pilots challenging us and we cannot foresee the current AOA funding such a case or the individual. We will advise the AOA accordingly.
The Pilots in the UK signed a contract, which ends at the age of 55. We will terminate that contract, not on the basis of age, but on the term of the contract. If one will want to work with Cathay Pacific at the end of this contract, a new contract will have to be signed. It is simple contract law.
If we are threaten by this, Cathay Pacific will exercise our right to terminate your contract with 3 months notice and if you decide to take us to court, we will happily pay the 70,000 Sterling at the end of the Tribunal. This is the more inexpensive way than to pay A Scale.
The Management
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I'm fairly sure that the rest of the world will slowly be dragged along behind the UK & EU so when the age discrimination act comes along in HK, those extending past 55 will have to be given their current package.
Hence PW's irritation in his latest missive that he doesn't think an agreement will be forthcoming. They've generously improved the package, but until it matches that which will be enforced shortly anyway, why would anyone vote for lesser terms?
Not to mention the ridiculous idea that these more experienced pilots should be paid less anyway.
Hence PW's irritation in his latest missive that he doesn't think an agreement will be forthcoming. They've generously improved the package, but until it matches that which will be enforced shortly anyway, why would anyone vote for lesser terms?
Not to mention the ridiculous idea that these more experienced pilots should be paid less anyway.
Hawkeye,
The open goal you talk about isn't there.
The Legislation states "UK resident and flying a UK registered aircraft" which would seem to exclude CX pilots. However there are holes in this statement which are being investigated but it still might require a test case to clarify it.
Looks more like an indirect free kick to me.
The open goal you talk about isn't there.
The Legislation states "UK resident and flying a UK registered aircraft" which would seem to exclude CX pilots. However there are holes in this statement which are being investigated but it still might require a test case to clarify it.
Looks more like an indirect free kick to me.
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Veta employees
Icao has agreed age 65 for captains for all jars ops related member states.
eec labour laws dictate early retirement is a no no to all eec member states
therefore all veta uk based employees can remain employed until this age on thier PRESENT TERMS AND CONDITIONS .
interesting times!
eec labour laws dictate early retirement is a no no to all eec member states
therefore all veta uk based employees can remain employed until this age on thier PRESENT TERMS AND CONDITIONS .
interesting times!
I wish people would take the trouble to read these labour laws before spouting forth.
This is what it says at present:-
Page 8, Para 10 (3) (b). It says:
++++++++++++++++++
Meaning of employment and contract work at establishment in Great Britain
10.—(1) For the purposes of this Part (“the relevant purposes”), employment is to be regarded as
being at an establishment in Great Britain if the employee—
(a) does his work wholly or partly in Great Britain; or
(..............................................
............................................
(3) The reference to “employment” in paragraph (1) includes—
(a) employment on board a ship only if the ship is registered at a port of registry in Great
Britain, and
(b) employment on an aircraft or hovercraft only if the aircraft or hovercraft is registered in
the United Kingdom and operated by a person who has his principal place of business, or
is ordinarily resident, in Great Britain.
It has yet to be tested and may well have flaws that invalidate it so I look forward to the first test case
This is what it says at present:-
Page 8, Para 10 (3) (b). It says:
++++++++++++++++++
Meaning of employment and contract work at establishment in Great Britain
10.—(1) For the purposes of this Part (“the relevant purposes”), employment is to be regarded as
being at an establishment in Great Britain if the employee—
(a) does his work wholly or partly in Great Britain; or
(..............................................
............................................
(3) The reference to “employment” in paragraph (1) includes—
(a) employment on board a ship only if the ship is registered at a port of registry in Great
Britain, and
(b) employment on an aircraft or hovercraft only if the aircraft or hovercraft is registered in
the United Kingdom and operated by a person who has his principal place of business, or
is ordinarily resident, in Great Britain.
It has yet to be tested and may well have flaws that invalidate it so I look forward to the first test case
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In addition to what The Management said regarding the PAYE system Veta may be found in breach of UK employment laws regarding taxes etc. This can go back seven years and amount to millions.
How's that goin' for ya Nick?
How's that goin' for ya Nick?
