DEFO NO Vote
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 361
Likes: 1
From: Hong Kong
Hi evyjet,
Congratulations on being successful with CX. Not an easy thing to do.
I do not know of your background but it is encouraging to hear pilots standing up to employers for better conditions.
If this was all or some of the reason for rejecting the offer walk proudly my friend.
Well done
Congratulations on being successful with CX. Not an easy thing to do.
I do not know of your background but it is encouraging to hear pilots standing up to employers for better conditions.
If this was all or some of the reason for rejecting the offer walk proudly my friend.
Well done
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
From: Asia
!Lastly, don't make it sound like it's so terrible just for those not in the AOA not to have a voice. It is just as much a hardship for those in the AOA as those out of the AOA that membership isn't 100%. All you have to do is look at the RP07 vote as an example. I would like something done to change that!
So to sum up. By not being in the AOA you say "I am happy for you to pay and support the structure by which you determine my contract, I do not want to be involved..". By being in the AOA and not voting you say "I am happy to support the minority vote".
So when you use words like "Majority" and "Minority" you have to take all of the above in to context.
Congrats if you read all this dribble
FG
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
From: Hong Kong
Hey EVYjet...we have a friend in common...SR in Sth Korea. He said you had knocked the job back but he didn't say what you were going to do instead! I quite like visiting the sandpit but have to say I don't think I could live there for long so I can't blame you guys for seeking greener pastures! Plus it would be hard to go back from 4bars to 2!
Truckmasters
In the DEFO deal(that was voted down) I think the company weren't allowed to put any DEFOs in HKG for a few years. So without the deal they can do it anytime. The savings are to be had on basings...no housing, no education etc. Back in 99 a few management guys did some number crunching and worked out that it took about 2 years for an SO to make up in salary/housing etc what he cost in then subsequentely being upgraded to FO versus a DEFO. So with 3-4 years as an SO the company saves lots.
BUT....for the forseeable future it is capacity constrained in the training department. So obviously an FO for 10years takes less training than an SO for 4 followed by FO for 6. So I believe they are going to do the oz trips with 2FOs and any other trips they can. Ideally we would have no SOs but apparently there are not enough landings available to keep that many FOs current.
So to answer your question, yes they can and no they aren't breaking any agreement. They will have to pay bypass pay to any eligible SO. Now what exactly defines eligible nowadays is beyond me. If there are say 50DEFOs then there should be 50 SOs on bypass pay in HKG...assuming they are all 'eligible'!
Truckmasters
In the DEFO deal(that was voted down) I think the company weren't allowed to put any DEFOs in HKG for a few years. So without the deal they can do it anytime. The savings are to be had on basings...no housing, no education etc. Back in 99 a few management guys did some number crunching and worked out that it took about 2 years for an SO to make up in salary/housing etc what he cost in then subsequentely being upgraded to FO versus a DEFO. So with 3-4 years as an SO the company saves lots.
BUT....for the forseeable future it is capacity constrained in the training department. So obviously an FO for 10years takes less training than an SO for 4 followed by FO for 6. So I believe they are going to do the oz trips with 2FOs and any other trips they can. Ideally we would have no SOs but apparently there are not enough landings available to keep that many FOs current.
So to answer your question, yes they can and no they aren't breaking any agreement. They will have to pay bypass pay to any eligible SO. Now what exactly defines eligible nowadays is beyond me. If there are say 50DEFOs then there should be 50 SOs on bypass pay in HKG...assuming they are all 'eligible'!
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
From: Hong Kong
Howdy Five Green, your post came up as I was writing my previous!
I disagree on your assessment of the non voters. I regularly choose NOT to vote because I don't care which way the vote goes regardless of archaic 2/3rds rules...and I was once a very active GC member. I have spoken to 2 people who didn't vote on the RP07 issue...I can assure you their IQs were quite high...but they were absolutely undecided and they really didn't care(not me....I have a low IQ and I did vote;-). If they had "abstained" it wouldn't have helped in either case!
I do strongly agree with you on this....
for whatever historical reasons, the company has chosen to negotiate with the HKAOA as the representative body for the aircrew. I think in those days, ex AOA GC guys went into management..now they become cat B;-) I digress...this has been the case for 14 years. If you don't like what is happening pay your 1.25% to vote. The only guys who really have a reasonable gripe about this are the ASL guys...the FEs in particular, who couldn't join due age etc. The rest of the guys should put up or shut up!
I disagree on your assessment of the non voters. I regularly choose NOT to vote because I don't care which way the vote goes regardless of archaic 2/3rds rules...and I was once a very active GC member. I have spoken to 2 people who didn't vote on the RP07 issue...I can assure you their IQs were quite high...but they were absolutely undecided and they really didn't care(not me....I have a low IQ and I did vote;-). If they had "abstained" it wouldn't have helped in either case!
I do strongly agree with you on this....
for whatever historical reasons, the company has chosen to negotiate with the HKAOA as the representative body for the aircrew. I think in those days, ex AOA GC guys went into management..now they become cat B;-) I digress...this has been the case for 14 years. If you don't like what is happening pay your 1.25% to vote. The only guys who really have a reasonable gripe about this are the ASL guys...the FEs in particular, who couldn't join due age etc. The rest of the guys should put up or shut up!
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
From: home
All S/O’s will be “Grade B” and only Grade A is eligible for upgrade. All S/O will not be suitable for promotion. This will invoke clause 6.2 of the COS. As per the COS, by pass will be paid to all S/O as per clause 10.5.
This will eliminate the bypass pay for Second Officers. We have been doing this for years with the First Officers and it has saved Us a large amount of By Pass pay.
Only We and the candidate appreciates who is in each Category. This way we keep the pilot group in the dark on suitability and the reasons for unsuitability. We don’t give any group the numbers for by pass pay which gives us deniability.
We don’t hear of too many pilots boasting about their by-pass pay because their are not many. We make sure of it.
We do enjoy our work particularly when we can take advantage of the pilot group, it only demoralizes them more.
The more the Review Board saves, the more our bonuses and less to the employees particularly the pilots.
The Management
10.5 In any case of recruitment of First Officers by Direct Entry, other than in accordance with 6.2, the next most senior Second Officer suitable for promotion will receive First Officer Bypass Pay in the form of Junior First Officer’s Salary on a one for one basis commencing three (3) months after the date of joining of the First Officer recruited by Direct Entry. The payment of First Officer Bypass Pay will cease when the Second Officer receiving bypass pay commences Junior First Officer training.
6.2 Recruitment of First Officers by Direct Entry will normally only take place when there are no Second Officers suitable for promotion.
6.2 Recruitment of First Officers by Direct Entry will normally only take place when there are no Second Officers suitable for promotion.
Only We and the candidate appreciates who is in each Category. This way we keep the pilot group in the dark on suitability and the reasons for unsuitability. We don’t give any group the numbers for by pass pay which gives us deniability.
We don’t hear of too many pilots boasting about their by-pass pay because their are not many. We make sure of it.
We do enjoy our work particularly when we can take advantage of the pilot group, it only demoralizes them more.
The more the Review Board saves, the more our bonuses and less to the employees particularly the pilots.
The Management
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
From: Over There
Errr as in the M. G. case ? Not sure what you mean. Whatever you mean it takes funds to take the Co. to court.
So to sum up. By not being in the AOA you say "I am happy for you to pay and support the structure by which you determine my contract, I do not want to be involved..". By being in the AOA and not voting you say "I am happy to support the minority vote".
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,609
Likes: 0
From: Asia
cpdude
If you have a master plan to convince the 1000 CX pilots that aren’t AOA members to join and vote, good luck. Until then the company has said it will only negotiate with the AOA. This effectively means the 1000 CX pilots that are AOA members will decide the future of the 1000 pilots that aren’t because they have elected not to be members. It is their right not to be a part of the negotiation and voting process just as it is mine to be part of it. Do I like that the AOA membership only consists of about 50% of the pilot body? No. An enormous amount of time and energy has been put in by the AOA committee to increase membership over the last 4-5 years. There has been some success but only time will tell how successful they will eventually be.
If you have a master plan to convince the 1000 CX pilots that aren’t AOA members to join and vote, good luck. Until then the company has said it will only negotiate with the AOA. This effectively means the 1000 CX pilots that are AOA members will decide the future of the 1000 pilots that aren’t because they have elected not to be members. It is their right not to be a part of the negotiation and voting process just as it is mine to be part of it. Do I like that the AOA membership only consists of about 50% of the pilot body? No. An enormous amount of time and energy has been put in by the AOA committee to increase membership over the last 4-5 years. There has been some success but only time will tell how successful they will eventually be.
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
From: Over There
cpdude
If you have a master plan to convince the 1000 CX pilots that aren’t AOA members to join and vote, good luck. Until then the company has said it will only negotiate with the AOA. This effectively means the 1000 CX pilots that are AOA members will decide the future of the 1000 pilots that aren’t because they have elected not to be members. It is their right not to be a part of the negotiation and voting process just as it is mine to be part of it. Do I like that the AOA membership only consists of about 50% of the pilot body? No. An enormous amount of time and energy has been put in by the AOA committee to increase membership over the last 4-5 years. There has been some success but only time will tell how successful they will eventually be.
If you have a master plan to convince the 1000 CX pilots that aren’t AOA members to join and vote, good luck. Until then the company has said it will only negotiate with the AOA. This effectively means the 1000 CX pilots that are AOA members will decide the future of the 1000 pilots that aren’t because they have elected not to be members. It is their right not to be a part of the negotiation and voting process just as it is mine to be part of it. Do I like that the AOA membership only consists of about 50% of the pilot body? No. An enormous amount of time and energy has been put in by the AOA committee to increase membership over the last 4-5 years. There has been some success but only time will tell how successful they will eventually be.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,609
Likes: 0
From: Asia
cpdude
ASL isn't ideal but quite frankly is a drop in the ocean in the who scheme of things. I would like to know what you would do to encourage the other 90%+ that aren't members to join the AOA because to be honest I have no idea what else could be done that isn't already being done?
ASL isn't ideal but quite frankly is a drop in the ocean in the who scheme of things. I would like to know what you would do to encourage the other 90%+ that aren't members to join the AOA because to be honest I have no idea what else could be done that isn't already being done?
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,040
Likes: 2
From: 3.5 from TD
Man, pilots are the stingy-est group of people I know.
Just pay the damn fees and get over it! We are not talking major fees here. I don't care if you disagree with policy, or don't like the president. The fact that you can vote is enough for me. Also as important, the fact that you get extra insurance coverage and other "in-case-!!!!t" benefits.
A lot of the guys I have talked to just haven't joined because they really don't give a damn. If that is the case, then you deserve what you get and have no right to complain about how it is handed to you.
So please stop arguing about stupid little percentages and dumb-ass excuses for not voting. You sound like a bunch of whinners arguing about pennies when it comes time to pay the check at a restaurant.
And make sure you give a buck to the driver on the overnights (I can't believe I actually have to tell people that!)
Even the cabin crew at my previous job would tip the van driver. And they where only making 17 USD/hour!
Just pay the damn fees and get over it! We are not talking major fees here. I don't care if you disagree with policy, or don't like the president. The fact that you can vote is enough for me. Also as important, the fact that you get extra insurance coverage and other "in-case-!!!!t" benefits.
A lot of the guys I have talked to just haven't joined because they really don't give a damn. If that is the case, then you deserve what you get and have no right to complain about how it is handed to you.
So please stop arguing about stupid little percentages and dumb-ass excuses for not voting. You sound like a bunch of whinners arguing about pennies when it comes time to pay the check at a restaurant.
And make sure you give a buck to the driver on the overnights (I can't believe I actually have to tell people that!)
Even the cabin crew at my previous job would tip the van driver. And they where only making 17 USD/hour!
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
From: Over There
cpdude
ASL isn't ideal but quite frankly is a drop in the ocean in the who scheme of things. I would like to know what you would do to encourage the other 90%+ that aren't members to join the AOA because to be honest I have no idea what else could be done that isn't already being done?
ASL isn't ideal but quite frankly is a drop in the ocean in the who scheme of things. I would like to know what you would do to encourage the other 90%+ that aren't members to join the AOA because to be honest I have no idea what else could be done that isn't already being done?
Flyers, posters and BBQ's will bring many in!
...and every drop counts!
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
From: Over There
Man, pilots are the stingy-est group of people I know.
Just pay the damn fees and get over it! We are not talking major fees here. I don't care if you disagree with policy, or don't like the president. The fact that you can vote is enough for me. Also as important, the fact that you get extra insurance coverage and other "in-case-!!!!t" benefits.
A lot of the guys I have talked to just haven't joined because they really don't give a damn. If that is the case, then you deserve what you get and have no right to complain about how it is handed to you.
So please stop arguing about stupid little percentages and dumb-ass excuses for not voting. You sound like a bunch of whinners arguing about pennies when it comes time to pay the check at a restaurant.
And make sure you give a buck to the driver on the overnights (I can't believe I actually have to tell people that!) Even the cabin crew at my previous job would tip the van driver. And they where only making 17 USD/hour!
Just pay the damn fees and get over it! We are not talking major fees here. I don't care if you disagree with policy, or don't like the president. The fact that you can vote is enough for me. Also as important, the fact that you get extra insurance coverage and other "in-case-!!!!t" benefits.
A lot of the guys I have talked to just haven't joined because they really don't give a damn. If that is the case, then you deserve what you get and have no right to complain about how it is handed to you.
So please stop arguing about stupid little percentages and dumb-ass excuses for not voting. You sound like a bunch of whinners arguing about pennies when it comes time to pay the check at a restaurant.
And make sure you give a buck to the driver on the overnights (I can't believe I actually have to tell people that!)
Even the cabin crew at my previous job would tip the van driver. And they where only making 17 USD/hour! 
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,040
Likes: 2
From: 3.5 from TD
I could care less if they join it or not. I'm just tired of them whinning about not wanting the AOA to represent them wanting to pay for a "broken" union. You know why it is broken?? Because people like you just don't give a damn and many don't join. So which came first?? The chiken or the egg?
What kind of message do you think the company would get if membership all of a sudden jumped through the roof? You think NR would still be pushing that" you should join the union" line?
I hope these whinners don't join. I'm glad I'm in and my friends are in, and we vote and think alike, that is why they are my friends. I'll keep voting for what I like and you can just keep getting what I decide you should get. I really don't care if you like it or not.
Rant complete, before take-off checklist.
What kind of message do you think the company would get if membership all of a sudden jumped through the roof? You think NR would still be pushing that" you should join the union" line?
I hope these whinners don't join. I'm glad I'm in and my friends are in, and we vote and think alike, that is why they are my friends. I'll keep voting for what I like and you can just keep getting what I decide you should get. I really don't care if you like it or not.
Rant complete, before take-off checklist.
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
From: Over There
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
From: Asia
RTP squared
Join the AOA if you want any control over which way your contract goes.
If not just keep quiet and accept what you are too cheap to participate in.
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
From: Over There
I'm in the AOA and I don't have any control over which way my contract goes because the entire process is flawed. We are in a sort of stalemate here! Nothing will change with the process and nothing will improve with the contract.
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
From: Asia
Numeroo :
What I was tryin to point out is not voting means there are less people to vote for a motion. That in turn means it takes less people to vote down a motion thereby giving more weight relative to the overall membership and over all pilot body to a no vote.
For the record I completely agree with this. Howwever an abstention rather than not voting is much better because it shows that you cared enought to be involved in the process but that the issues was not clear cut enough for you. It also means that the company and CPdude and friends cannot then spin the resulting numbers as well.
For CPdude. The vote is set up in the way it is to ensure that only votes that are categorically supported go through. Other wise you maintain the status quo which is the contract under which you joined or subsequently agreed to (excluding forced changes as we won't talk about those!) pre-dating the vote(s). So if people don't vote or don't care to join the AOA then that works because those that are affected and therefore care enough to vote can decide their own fate.
FG
What I was tryin to point out is not voting means there are less people to vote for a motion. That in turn means it takes less people to vote down a motion thereby giving more weight relative to the overall membership and over all pilot body to a no vote.
For the record I completely agree with this. Howwever an abstention rather than not voting is much better because it shows that you cared enought to be involved in the process but that the issues was not clear cut enough for you. It also means that the company and CPdude and friends cannot then spin the resulting numbers as well.
For CPdude. The vote is set up in the way it is to ensure that only votes that are categorically supported go through. Other wise you maintain the status quo which is the contract under which you joined or subsequently agreed to (excluding forced changes as we won't talk about those!) pre-dating the vote(s). So if people don't vote or don't care to join the AOA then that works because those that are affected and therefore care enough to vote can decide their own fate.
FG