Management
Steve
Spot on...always easy to re-write history and motives from a different generation.
Capt Toss
May be time to retreat below the MSA again...I saw your alter ego with a baseball bat the other day and he is getting warm, very warm
Spot on...always easy to re-write history and motives from a different generation.
Capt Toss
May be time to retreat below the MSA again...I saw your alter ego with a baseball bat the other day and he is getting warm, very warm
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What people posting here conveniently forget is this:
GC was the DFO. The company was ALREADY recruiting B Scale officers BEFORE the pay deal was put to the committee. GC informed the committee that nothing in our terms of service, or in Hong Kong legislation, could prevent the company recruiting officers on whatever terms and conditions it felt like. When the committee told him that noone would come to CX on such derisory terms he produced a list of guys who had already accepted B scale terms and were coming to CX, families and all. Those are the facts, if you were on the committee or pilot body at the time, would you have stuck your neck out for a bunch of guys who had ALREADY ACCEPTED the terms that you would be fighting against?
GC was the DFO. The company was ALREADY recruiting B Scale officers BEFORE the pay deal was put to the committee. GC informed the committee that nothing in our terms of service, or in Hong Kong legislation, could prevent the company recruiting officers on whatever terms and conditions it felt like. When the committee told him that noone would come to CX on such derisory terms he produced a list of guys who had already accepted B scale terms and were coming to CX, families and all. Those are the facts, if you were on the committee or pilot body at the time, would you have stuck your neck out for a bunch of guys who had ALREADY ACCEPTED the terms that you would be fighting against?
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Cyral, Steve, VR-HFX, Kitsune, and others, well said gents....
Cxorcist...you said "everyone got scared and the wheels of CX aircraft kept turning. WEAK!!! At least call in unfit due stress. For ****'s sake! Get a doctor's note if you needed to CYA."
Well, sonny, all I can say is.....been there done that.
In fact, oh insightful one, go ahead and ask the person you praised in your last post about that particular incident.....if he is as close to you as you claim, you may decide to curb your insults. That person, a friend of mine, and a first rate individual, may be just the person to try and bring you up to speed on what it was like living through that incident.
Following that incident, I watched as 50 of my friends and colleagues got fired because of the industrial actions I took part in.
There were B scalers heavily involved in the industrial campaigns of the late 90's, it was a combined A scale and B scale effort....a "team" effort. Is team effort a concept you're familiar with...I think not?
Where were you during those industrial efforts that you now so shamefully denigrate???? Oh, that's right....YOU WEREN'T THERE!
You claim to be intelligent, principled, and a man of conviction (wow...all in one sentence), yet you have no problem hurling unprincipled slurs.....
I can't help but take it personally when johnny-come-lately chest thumpers like you criticize and throw stones at our efforts while having nothing, absolutely nothing, to offer on how your efforts have shaped Company policy since your tumultuous arrival on the scene.
The idea that you were on an AOA committee is enough to make me question why I continue to pay dues. As intelligent and savvy as you claim to be, you can't even recognize that we are supposed to be on the same side. You find it easier to hurl insults at members of your own team instead of recognizing who the true opponents are. How brave you are......
Cxorcist, try some humility, your arrogance is shameful.
Cxorcist...you said "everyone got scared and the wheels of CX aircraft kept turning. WEAK!!! At least call in unfit due stress. For ****'s sake! Get a doctor's note if you needed to CYA."
Well, sonny, all I can say is.....been there done that.
In fact, oh insightful one, go ahead and ask the person you praised in your last post about that particular incident.....if he is as close to you as you claim, you may decide to curb your insults. That person, a friend of mine, and a first rate individual, may be just the person to try and bring you up to speed on what it was like living through that incident.
Following that incident, I watched as 50 of my friends and colleagues got fired because of the industrial actions I took part in.
There were B scalers heavily involved in the industrial campaigns of the late 90's, it was a combined A scale and B scale effort....a "team" effort. Is team effort a concept you're familiar with...I think not?
Where were you during those industrial efforts that you now so shamefully denigrate???? Oh, that's right....YOU WEREN'T THERE!
You claim to be intelligent, principled, and a man of conviction (wow...all in one sentence), yet you have no problem hurling unprincipled slurs.....
I can't help but take it personally when johnny-come-lately chest thumpers like you criticize and throw stones at our efforts while having nothing, absolutely nothing, to offer on how your efforts have shaped Company policy since your tumultuous arrival on the scene.
The idea that you were on an AOA committee is enough to make me question why I continue to pay dues. As intelligent and savvy as you claim to be, you can't even recognize that we are supposed to be on the same side. You find it easier to hurl insults at members of your own team instead of recognizing who the true opponents are. How brave you are......
Cxorcist, try some humility, your arrogance is shameful.
Last edited by raven11; 23rd Nov 2011 at 04:49.
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Many of us know who was the last person hired on the A scale and, likewise, those who were the first to be hired on the B scale. Had I been among the first to have my promised Conditions of Service changed would I have been outraged? Absolutely. Would I have still joined? More than likely. Would I have borne a grudge or simply accepted the new reality? Hypothetical, so I don't really know but I can guess.
All this happened 17 years ago and we are still blaming each other for the fallout. You have to admire the exquisite irony - reduce Terms and Conditions and then sit back and watch the workforce systematically destroy their collective bargaining position at the same time as reducing labour costs. A stroke of genius some might say.
What's happening now with the iCadets and what happened with the introduction of B scale is no different. The iCadets will eventually end up blaming everyone else for a decision they themselves took, hopefully having weighed up the pros and cons. When that happens, people such as cxorcist will be back on their soapboxes saying there was little that the then membership could have done to prevent the imposition of "C scales" and that the iCadets have no-one to blame but themselves.
They know us only too well and prey on our fragile collective ego.
STP
All this happened 17 years ago and we are still blaming each other for the fallout. You have to admire the exquisite irony - reduce Terms and Conditions and then sit back and watch the workforce systematically destroy their collective bargaining position at the same time as reducing labour costs. A stroke of genius some might say.
What's happening now with the iCadets and what happened with the introduction of B scale is no different. The iCadets will eventually end up blaming everyone else for a decision they themselves took, hopefully having weighed up the pros and cons. When that happens, people such as cxorcist will be back on their soapboxes saying there was little that the then membership could have done to prevent the imposition of "C scales" and that the iCadets have no-one to blame but themselves.
They know us only too well and prey on our fragile collective ego.
STP
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DEAR RAVEN
I have not seen it all, but I have seen a lot over the years including several characters like CXorsist, bullies by nature , big talkers, chest beaters and two faced back stabbers, and you know what....whilst we were walking the picket line years ago, literally having bricks thrown at us (yes full size bricks into a crowd) ....people like CXorsist after having the blowtorch applied to their lily livered yellow belly ran back to work falling over themselves to get in the early s*cab line, leaving the vast majority of us without jobs. We don't need his ill informed swipes and notions about our character make up. If he wants to get in the ring a throw punches....expect a bloody nose because I for one will fight back stooping to his level, to make his thick brain comprehend if I see the need to make the point.
He is banging on in another thread about naming and shaming crew working on G days and there is not even a motion in the wind for that and go course the GC of today would scotch that suggestion in its tracks as it is run by hard working savvy volunteers. We all understand the ramifications of G day working but until it is voted on it is just dribble to suggest naming and shaming.
Raven I agree CXorsist is a bad ad for the AOA and probably does a lot of negative press for our Association but another thing I have learnt over the journey is for every one of his ilk, there are hundreds of quality guys in our association worth rallying around and to continue to pay our dues and hold our head high that for our ENTIRE career we have been principled even thought circumstances have not always gone how we would have liked. Johhny come lately folks like CXorsist are not worthy of causing any one to leave the AOA because I doubt if he is in for the long haul anyhow!.
He is banging on in another thread about naming and shaming crew working on G days and there is not even a motion in the wind for that and go course the GC of today would scotch that suggestion in its tracks as it is run by hard working savvy volunteers. We all understand the ramifications of G day working but until it is voted on it is just dribble to suggest naming and shaming.
Raven I agree CXorsist is a bad ad for the AOA and probably does a lot of negative press for our Association but another thing I have learnt over the journey is for every one of his ilk, there are hundreds of quality guys in our association worth rallying around and to continue to pay our dues and hold our head high that for our ENTIRE career we have been principled even thought circumstances have not always gone how we would have liked. Johhny come lately folks like CXorsist are not worthy of causing any one to leave the AOA because I doubt if he is in for the long haul anyhow!.
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Gents,
This will be my last post on this thread. Your emotional replies contain so little in terms of actual substance that I will not justify most of them with a response. Clearly, many of you carry a lot a guilt about how you have conducted yourselves in the past. As you should... However, my intentions were not to ruffle feathers, but to clarify why our pilot group is the sad state that it is today. I wish A scalers could accept their part in our failures. Not to be repetitive but the shortcomings of A scale leader- and follower-ship are off the charts and set the horrible precedence by which so many of our lesser employed colleagues follow today.
Kitsune, we (you guys) should have fought the B scale to preserve the A scale, not for those whom had already joined on B. Similarly, STP, we absolutely should be fighting the iCadet for our own sake right now, not for the iCadets!!! We should all be employed on the same terms now, then, and forever. Different terms divide us irreparably. Just notice how we refer to each other... A, B, C, F, etc.
Raven, you are right. We are all on the same team. We should treat each other like teammates and expect high standards of quality and excellence from each other. Part of that is accountability. I do not think most of you have taken any responsibility for what happened under your watch. That's unacceptable. Similarly, we are experiencing a leadership failure with respect to the iCadet program. We will be to blame for our own future degradation because of this. We are far too worried about various TUs and are missing the "gorilla" walking through the middle of the congo line.
Also, I never wrote that the NC was a close friend. I wrote that he is the only A scaler I have ever observed caring about those on lesser payscales. I'm sure there are others. Perhaps you, Raven, are one of them? If so, may I ask what you have done?
Oval, I disagree that this is a contract job. If we could unify as a pilot group, we would be treated as a collective. Since we don't, we get what we have now. In a sense, it is the old chicken and the egg argument. Which came first? They tried on dividing the group, and we did not rise to the occasion. So we continue to be treated as a fractured group. We are all to blame for this. Not Hong Kong labour law. That too is a weak excuse. But need I remind you where and when this all started. It is not personal, it's a fact. Sorry guys. I wish it weren't so.
To those of you who have been offended by my words, I apologize. Perhaps wrongly, I feel that industrial matters are like any other portion of our profession. As professionals, we should examine our mistakes, admit to them, and do what we can to correct them. I do not think A scalers have adequately done that. Many are in denial. Others are deflecting blame. Some just don't care.
OK, off the "soapbox". Fire away boys! Let's see if you can mix any substance with all your emotion...
This will be my last post on this thread. Your emotional replies contain so little in terms of actual substance that I will not justify most of them with a response. Clearly, many of you carry a lot a guilt about how you have conducted yourselves in the past. As you should... However, my intentions were not to ruffle feathers, but to clarify why our pilot group is the sad state that it is today. I wish A scalers could accept their part in our failures. Not to be repetitive but the shortcomings of A scale leader- and follower-ship are off the charts and set the horrible precedence by which so many of our lesser employed colleagues follow today.
Kitsune, we (you guys) should have fought the B scale to preserve the A scale, not for those whom had already joined on B. Similarly, STP, we absolutely should be fighting the iCadet for our own sake right now, not for the iCadets!!! We should all be employed on the same terms now, then, and forever. Different terms divide us irreparably. Just notice how we refer to each other... A, B, C, F, etc.
Raven, you are right. We are all on the same team. We should treat each other like teammates and expect high standards of quality and excellence from each other. Part of that is accountability. I do not think most of you have taken any responsibility for what happened under your watch. That's unacceptable. Similarly, we are experiencing a leadership failure with respect to the iCadet program. We will be to blame for our own future degradation because of this. We are far too worried about various TUs and are missing the "gorilla" walking through the middle of the congo line.
Also, I never wrote that the NC was a close friend. I wrote that he is the only A scaler I have ever observed caring about those on lesser payscales. I'm sure there are others. Perhaps you, Raven, are one of them? If so, may I ask what you have done?
Oval, I disagree that this is a contract job. If we could unify as a pilot group, we would be treated as a collective. Since we don't, we get what we have now. In a sense, it is the old chicken and the egg argument. Which came first? They tried on dividing the group, and we did not rise to the occasion. So we continue to be treated as a fractured group. We are all to blame for this. Not Hong Kong labour law. That too is a weak excuse. But need I remind you where and when this all started. It is not personal, it's a fact. Sorry guys. I wish it weren't so.
To those of you who have been offended by my words, I apologize. Perhaps wrongly, I feel that industrial matters are like any other portion of our profession. As professionals, we should examine our mistakes, admit to them, and do what we can to correct them. I do not think A scalers have adequately done that. Many are in denial. Others are deflecting blame. Some just don't care.
OK, off the "soapbox". Fire away boys! Let's see if you can mix any substance with all your emotion...
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At the end of the day everyone does whats best for them and to hell with everyone else. It's human nature. As a wise A scaler told me, the only way to have a cohesive contract is to have no variables. Everyone is based in Hong Kong, no-one does W patterns, no one flys on G Days, no one does an "early" command getting F/O pay for the privilege. Everyone is on the same housing, no fixed or floating option.
This conversation is about 25 years too late.
This conversation is about 25 years too late.
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cxorcist, for all of your sanctimonious, self-aggrandising claims of ownership of the moral high ground in this argument you do have a point. However, I'm curious as to what you would have done had you found yourself in the same position as the A scalers did in 93/94. Indeed, I'm curious as to what YOU are doing NOW to stand against the imposition of the reduced conditions on the so-called iCadets and, by implication, the current pilot body. I don't think the "I'm alright Jack" mentality is restricted to those who you accuse of lacking in leadership qualities. Reading this forum it would seem that many of our current pilots, rather than stating that they will be doing everything in their power to prevent the imposition of the new Terms and Conditions, are ridiculing new-joiners publicly for their apparent lack of judgement in accepting.
Still I can only guess what the answers to the above questions would be because you say:
and having declared your last post to be your final one on this thread I am fully aware that such a principled person will be unable to respond. Sad really as I was looking forward to receiving the benefit of your "thesis" on leadership.
STP
Still I can only guess what the answers to the above questions would be because you say:
More importantly however, I am principled and live life with conviction.
STP
