What's your view on VHHH tower ATC service

[HKG Phooey]

how about auto transfer when airbore??? tower are no use for radar vectors so if you have a problem you dont want to speak to them anyways.... and when vacated.... auto contact ground..... (soon we will all know what the freq will be.....)

and....

letting more than 1 aircraft push at one time....





oh and i dont really think HK is the problem.... how about fixing CHINA????

[Bedder believeit]

Bedder Believeit

There seems to be a bit of angst regarding being either vectored to final or allowing the people in the front (computers?) of the airplane do it. If HK was a 360 degree airfield with no airspace limitations to the West, If HK didn't have up to 3400ft of solid rock running from the NE to the SE only 2 to 3 miles away, If HK didn't have a restrictive egress for departing aircraft off RWY 07 that will conflict with just about every arrival from the East and many others, if HK was only trying to manage a maximum demand of say 20 odd arrivals per hour instead of up to 40, If HK wasn't hemmed in to the South by Macau airspace, If HK didn't have to process arrivals and departures into and out of Macau that have a tendancy to conflict either with each other, or just about every other HK arrival and departure...should I go on(?) then, I agree, just letting the FMC (and pilot's) fly the approach would in all probability be the best option, However....This is not the case. Sorry, but the airlines demand via the Airport Authority that we steadily increase movement rates. Sometimes this will not be to our collective liking.

I feel very sorry for the people on the receiving end of some of the horrendous delays that are being given (with little or no notice) to departures to DOTMI and a lesser extent BEKOL. I am not trying to pass blame, but, it doesn't come from us.

As to having automatic frequency changes, one of the reasons for keeping departures on the tower frequency is so that if the departure goes shooting of to the South (as has happened when an aircraft was initially given a 07R sid, then changed to 25L for departure and not re programming the new 25L SID into the FMS and then making a huge turn towards PORPA/Lantau Peak as soon as auto pilot engaged), then the Tower controller will hopefully see the situation and take some sort of action. Mind you many departures are transferred at 500' to 1000' so this is negated somewhat.

I can't access one of the last comments, but since when did we have a situation where only one aircraft at a time was pushed back? Obviously if two aircraft are on adjacent bays, or a corner bay, then other bays will be blocked. One thing that grates with us is when people call ready for push, and we then move traffic around to suit that, and then they end up not being ready for some time. And believe me (Bedder) it happens all the time.

I am not trying to teach people to suck eggs, but I guess incidents happen, and a band aid is then applied, and people then say "where did that come from?"

[moosp]

After the brickbats, have a bouquet.

Tonight from Elato, cluster formation of four, one for Macau, all within ten miles trail. Speed variations given, descents given, by 250 we were all back at 290 knots or greater. A real professional job quickly executed.

Usual dog fight towards Limes, some from south, some from east, all sorted, lined up and trailed with minimum waste of space. Joy to watch. Then to complete the evening tower welcomed us back, leaving a warm fuzzy feeling.

And I guessed the ground freq. correctly! (see passim)

Pleasure doing business with you.

[Mr. Bloggs]

Cathay Pilots are trained to anticipate the push back. If only one door is open (baggage or passenger), the trainers gets on you if you don’t anticipate (lack of awareness they say). I say, when the doors are closed, ask for push back.

So a push back is asked with a door open and is given. Behold a door does not shut and you ask why. Cabin attendants found a problem with seating or Ground handlers found another bag to be loaded. So now it will take a minute or so.

Now since all the Aircraft have been moved to suit you, you do not push back straight away.

My advise is don’t ask for push back until all the doors are closed (there are others using the same field). For the controllers, if you see someone asking for push back and the doors have not been closed (maybe hard to see the pax/cargo door) Ask if he is allowed to push back with a door open and if not wait until it is closed. Ask just to confirm all doors are closed. If not, yell at him. If they do not push back within 30 sec, stop the push until ATC can accommodate other aircraft and you move to the back of the line (penalty box thing in the States).

What is the difference between being “Ready” and “Fully Ready”? You are ready or you are not.

My personal opinion, I would rather get vectored. Don’t like being in a hold with 1000’ clearance with someone who could make a mistake on their altitude clearance. too many aeroplanes too close together. Rather do S turns, it keeps me awake. Seems it was said before, holds don’t optimize arrivals. I know it is very difficult to reach up the turn the heading button every 30 sec or so, but use your beer drinking arm, it is much stronger.

Been to LHR and they use the snake system after leaving Lambourne for Runway 27 and been to the States where they use the same “S” snake system. All at the same speed following each other in. One big happy snake. If you don't do what your are told, you get yelled at.

If you hear “Turn heading 265 and descend to 4100’, then 3000’ and 1500’ (Runway 07), you know you will be dropped in early. Seems the controllers will give you a 9-10 mile final, so prepare for it. Saves time from going to “Sokoe” and Limes”. You don’t have to dive to 1500’ when cleared, just intercept the the glide slope at 2600-3000’. Make life easier, have the gear down and a reasonable speed to intercept. Takes more mental work, but hell, you are Cathay Pilots, you invented flying. Seems some may have invented ATC also.

In the end, ATC are in a box, a small one to boot, so unless you are going to have a mid-air, let them do there job.

For ATC, what are some of the things you see pilots do, that we can do better (whining not included, we have that mastered)?

[Bedder believeit]

Bedder Believeit

To HKG Phooey, I forgot to mention in the response to your request for auto freq transfer on Departure. When RWY 07 is in use (the bulk of the time over the course of a year) the overshoot path for aircraft on RWY 07L ILS/D app is not quite separated from the SID Departure path for an aircraft departing RWY 07R. Therfore if an aircraft performs a missed approach on 07L, at the same time as an aircraft is becoming airborne off 07R, then both aircraft can be kept "in house" (in this case the Tower) so that a suitable vertical (and visual) separation can be implemented by the two concerned controllers (118.4 and 118.2) before transfer to Departures (123.8). Obviously two differing requirements might be: Situation 1. A heavy cargo aircraft overshooting on the North RWY against a lightish medium flight to nowhere climbing like a rocket off 07R, we may instigate an altitude restriction on the freighter, and get the light departure to expedite climb. Situation 2 would be the exact reverse. This is also one of the reasons why we are reluctant to approve requests for practice VOR/D approaches onto either 07L or 25R as the overshoot paths are both "Maintain Runway heading", and it means that we lose a departure slot. Whilst this in itself is not critical, the aspect of having to make the decision at such an early stage when you request the approach means that the system does not often know how many departures may be taxiing out. This may explain why you don't always get your request.

[Five Green]

I agree

I actually prefer vectors to holding as well. If the vector is obvious enough ie you can plan the right vertical speed, then you can save fuel over holding. In a hold you will ( on average) be lower and the constant powering up around the corners does waste fuel. One thing that is handy and used elswhere when major vecoring is "number in sequence" helps you see the game plan. Yes we get by without that but it is noce on the bad wx days etc.

Take off 25L heading eastbound (i.e. TPE, JPN). ATC need altitude not forward speed (FL 140 or above at “Trout”), so after leaving “Prawn” at 230 kts, keep the speed at 250kts and climb faster. When you gain enough altitude you will be cleared more direct, then go fast. Then again I may be wrong.

Mr. Bloggs: The 744 at or near max TOW does not climb efficiently at 250 kts, the rate of climb still relates to best angle and best rate. Usually at max TOW best angle is still nearer to 280 than 250 therefore you will not climb any faster at the slower speed. That also means you will not reach altitude in any less distance/time and the draw back is that at 250 kts you use more fuel to get to altitude. Extreme winds asside.

I realise that the "after landing vacate the rwy...." is probably for the few rather than the many however the standing joke is "after landing" as that can probably be left out as you are not going to attempt it before landing ! Another insight to Cathay check rides regarding the above. You now get demerits for not hammering on the brakes and careening of first oppurtunity. Even if there is not someone 4 miles in trail !!! There is still no grey for some of our CTs

Also the speed control on the ILS plates. Can ATC wave that (ie "speed your discretion") if the spacing is not an issue as it does not fit with a really light weight arrival in the 744. Plus we are still having issue with getting our landing flap out by 1500 AAE and the speed control just confuses that.

Hong Kong is the only airport I know that you talk to "HKG departure" on "arrival" ?

The other day we were on our takeoff roll 07R when another 744 went around. Interesting to watch from up close and handled no dramma. Job well done ATC !

IMHO Cheers

[NoseGear]

I'm in

Bedder, can you tell me how/who to contact for a visit to the tower? I am keen to see how you operate up there, might even learn something!

PM me or post here if you feel like being inundated!

Nosey

[Mr. Bloggs]

All I am saying is use best angle or 250, which ever is greater, to 14000 then you may get turned toward “Ocean” sooner then drive it to “Econ” climb. “Elato/Envar should not be a factor in a 744 to FL 290-330. A heavy 340 will definitely struggle.

Any ATC thoughts on this or is the thought process all shot to hell? What works best for ATC to turn early towards Envar/Elato/Ocean/Rasse, Altitude or Speed?

[HKG Phooey]

see there is a reason for everything....... thanks.....

the diff between "ready" and "fully ready" thats easy.....

"fully"

[Viper2]

I agree with GEH065. I fly from Macau and it is a big relief to get into HKG airspace out of China or Taiwan. Maybe it is a bit busy sometimes but so much better than anywhere else in Asia!

Oops ... almost forgot .... can we have the right base every time?

[geh065]

Mr. Bloggs, I have never been taught to request pushback before all doors are closed, nor do I see it very often at all the other guy request it.

[Mr. Bloggs]

Sorry but I have.

[Five Green]

Mostly Ready

As far as a know there is no requirement to use the phrase "fully ready" here in Hong Kong. Please correct me if I am wrong. I know that it is actually written in the pages of LHR's charts ! Always made me laugh similar to kinda pregnant. So I usually use the phrase "barely ready" ,"mostly ready" etc.

All kidding aside I would say that the push back delays can also happen unexpectedly such as a difficult tug, unexpected ground personal issues (tug driver not there is a common one!),broken shear pin, cabin issues etc so Mr Beddfer try not to be too harsh on us driver types. Maybe we should have an all ready call to the ground before we ask for push but that won't happen at CX we are still trying to sort out what to say and when, to check that our doors are closed !!!

Fully Finished, down off soap box

[ClearToLand]

Originally Posted by Silberfuchs

On a slight tangent; Its is rediculous to be told "Youre No.2 to the Cathay 330 in front", when quite patently the Cathay in front is No.5 in the queue. That makes me No.6, not No.2.

These are mind numbingly useless words and both ATC and Aircrew are in err in this respect.

Not necessarily Siberfuchs, normally when we say "You're no.2 to the Cathay A330 joining from whiskey" means you are following/giving way to that Cathay, it doen't mean the departure sequence. If we tell you the departure sequence, we'll say "follow the Cathay A330 ahead, you're no.6 for departure"

[bekolblockage]

Ha! Thanks Suzie. That would explain why the Rec Room was full of expats between 12 and 2.

[ClearToLand]

Haha, but we held him at the holding point for a south lander....

[gyro]

You only held him for one arrival....??? What about giving him the 2-4 HOURS his kinsmen are assigning us!!!!!!

[throw a dyce]

I'm surprised they didn't diddle the TOIL for the tower guys 2 hour disappearing act.. Looks like nowt has changed across there. If it wasn't for the gweilos then the place would have never f ing opened.
It's ok out in the real world,after escaping you know.