Cathay vs Air Canada?
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Meaw wrote:
"Just announced today by management,
AC hiring 600 pilots this year......looks like a good time to come and move up the ladder quite fast I would say."
There is only one minor problem. I don't have Left seat, 2 crew, night IFR carrier landings in the spaceshuttle logged yet!
"Just announced today by management,
AC hiring 600 pilots this year......looks like a good time to come and move up the ladder quite fast I would say."
There is only one minor problem. I don't have Left seat, 2 crew, night IFR carrier landings in the spaceshuttle logged yet!
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It is when I hear things like - 'AC is going to hire 600 pilots this year' that it makes me REALLY happy I am at Cathay. In 1999, AC said they were going to hire 150-250 pilots per year indefinitely. New hires were told by the DFO that they could conceivably be FO's on the 767 in YVR in two years. Four years and change later the initial number was just shy of 700 lay offs. Granted 140ish were furloughed. But now back to the roller coaster - 600 new hires in a year.
Cx's steady controlled growth (and profitability) make it easier for me to sleep at night.
The cyclical nature of most North Am majors - mass hiring followed by lay offs during the next trough is something that is always a concern. The best you can hope for is that is you get hired early enough that retirements and modest growth will have you outlive the furloughs when things start going South.
On that note - Cx has never forloughed a pilot.
My congrats to AC and their employees. I wish them all the best in their growth. I do truly hope that all of my Canadian friends busting their butt in GA get their airline seat with AC and more importantly are able to hang on to it when the next down turn inevitably rolls around. And for those of you currently at AC congratulations on the new order, planned expansion and hiring boom!
Cx's steady controlled growth (and profitability) make it easier for me to sleep at night.
The cyclical nature of most North Am majors - mass hiring followed by lay offs during the next trough is something that is always a concern. The best you can hope for is that is you get hired early enough that retirements and modest growth will have you outlive the furloughs when things start going South.
On that note - Cx has never forloughed a pilot.
My congrats to AC and their employees. I wish them all the best in their growth. I do truly hope that all of my Canadian friends busting their butt in GA get their airline seat with AC and more importantly are able to hang on to it when the next down turn inevitably rolls around. And for those of you currently at AC congratulations on the new order, planned expansion and hiring boom!
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Dear Dockjock,
Yes, sadly most CX pilots don't have backyards and dogs.
But, after a few years of sacrifice in HKG most of them buy
huge backyards in YVR when they take basings there.
It's okay to crow about your lifestyle, but realise that most
CX pilots will own several large backyards before you finish
paying the mortgage on your first.
Enjoy cleaning up after your dog, I prefer cats.
AC 1, CX several
Yes, sadly most CX pilots don't have backyards and dogs.
But, after a few years of sacrifice in HKG most of them buy
huge backyards in YVR when they take basings there.
It's okay to crow about your lifestyle, but realise that most
CX pilots will own several large backyards before you finish
paying the mortgage on your first.
Enjoy cleaning up after your dog, I prefer cats.
AC 1, CX several
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Count me in for AC...after 9 years of CX I can't help but wish I'd gone to AC. I'd much rather make very slightly less money, have control of my roster, have a difined benefit pension and actually see my kids grow up.
Sure beats being a slave to the Swires doing 90 hrs a month with 10 days off spent in the DB plaza breathing toxic air counting money.
Sure beats being a slave to the Swires doing 90 hrs a month with 10 days off spent in the DB plaza breathing toxic air counting money.
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The interesting part of your preference Goonybird is at 9 years in CX you most likely joined as an S/O with say 1500-2000 hours and nothing larger than a Metro, maybe even a Navajo? So with that experience back in 1996, AC probably wasn't an option for you otherwise you might had gone at that time. For argument sake, if you were accepted and joined AC in 1996, you would have had many years with an after tax salary below 40K then concerned about a furlough after 911. At CX you have enjoyed an average after tax salary of over 90K. So, stress, poverty for simple control of your roster…I think not!
I suspect that you’re the victim of your own desire Goonybird. During your first 3 years as an S/O you would have had plenty of time at home with the family. Then, you could have waited for a bus course and try and get a base ASAP. But you probably went 777 didn't you? Lousy roster but lots of flying which speaks volumes about your priorities. Your still living in HK probably to make the most of being a non-resident and save on taxes. Again, another priority. You could take a base now but you’re close to a command and you want to stay. Another choice. You don't have to take a command and you could take a base and be home 18-20 days a month but you choose not to. Don't blame CX for that and don't pretend that you had the choice to go AC and turned it down...I don't believe you when I see the other choices you have made.
Priorities in life...take responsibility for the choices you make!
I suspect that you’re the victim of your own desire Goonybird. During your first 3 years as an S/O you would have had plenty of time at home with the family. Then, you could have waited for a bus course and try and get a base ASAP. But you probably went 777 didn't you? Lousy roster but lots of flying which speaks volumes about your priorities. Your still living in HK probably to make the most of being a non-resident and save on taxes. Again, another priority. You could take a base now but you’re close to a command and you want to stay. Another choice. You don't have to take a command and you could take a base and be home 18-20 days a month but you choose not to. Don't blame CX for that and don't pretend that you had the choice to go AC and turned it down...I don't believe you when I see the other choices you have made.
Priorities in life...take responsibility for the choices you make!
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Cpt Dude,
Had you joined Ac in 1996 , you would have made around 45k in 96 and 1997.From 1998 to today ( about 8 years) you never would have made less than 110 k /year as you would never had gone lower than A320 FO. Depending on what you bid you might have even spent time as a DC9 Capt in YYZ at 150K/year and today would be senior wide body f/o , well above the 120k/year mark.
As for layoffs you would not even have come close with a 1996 seniority.
Check your facts before you ramble on.
Had you joined Ac in 1996 , you would have made around 45k in 96 and 1997.From 1998 to today ( about 8 years) you never would have made less than 110 k /year as you would never had gone lower than A320 FO. Depending on what you bid you might have even spent time as a DC9 Capt in YYZ at 150K/year and today would be senior wide body f/o , well above the 120k/year mark.
As for layoffs you would not even have come close with a 1996 seniority.
Check your facts before you ramble on.
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Thanks for the laugh and outrageous speculation, you didn't get a single point right! LOL
I joined with over 5000 hours, yes as an S/O for 20 months, never flew the 777 and went on a base as soon as possible. (guess I should update my pprune profile
My decision to join CX was made at a relatively young age, before I realised the importance of lifestlye, before marriage and before kids. It was NOT based on finances! I thought it would be exciting to live and work in H.K. and the first few years were fun, but another 20 years of crossing the Pacific 2-3 times a month is not that stimulating.
The only way to make CX financially worthwhile over AC is to live in H.K. and take advantage of the housing allowance by buying a flat. That's why I made the reference to DB, it wasn't a statement of my lifestyle, but an observation of how those who claim great wealth from CX, live their lives in H.K.
If you enjoy it, than all the power to ya! However, the thread was a question of comparing CX & AC and there is a lot more to a company than the basic salary. I didn't even touch on staff travel!
Most of all, as meaw said, check your facts before rambling on!
I joined with over 5000 hours, yes as an S/O for 20 months, never flew the 777 and went on a base as soon as possible. (guess I should update my pprune profile
My decision to join CX was made at a relatively young age, before I realised the importance of lifestlye, before marriage and before kids. It was NOT based on finances! I thought it would be exciting to live and work in H.K. and the first few years were fun, but another 20 years of crossing the Pacific 2-3 times a month is not that stimulating.
The only way to make CX financially worthwhile over AC is to live in H.K. and take advantage of the housing allowance by buying a flat. That's why I made the reference to DB, it wasn't a statement of my lifestyle, but an observation of how those who claim great wealth from CX, live their lives in H.K.
If you enjoy it, than all the power to ya! However, the thread was a question of comparing CX & AC and there is a lot more to a company than the basic salary. I didn't even touch on staff travel!
Most of all, as meaw said, check your facts before rambling on!
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So you don't get a housing allowance unless you live in HK? Well that seems obvious of course. But how do the AC and CX pay scales stack up in terms of non-expat conditions ie. N.A. based? Compare only longhaul widebody please as obviously domestic/transborder narrowbodies at AC would pay less.
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look here , it's bad enough having to work for Cathay and putting up with the Canadians we have at CX, but work for AC ? populated by Canadians, you must be 'avin a friggin' larf, that would seriously drive any normal human being mad or at least into serious depression..............................What is it with Canadians, your just upset 'cause no one takes any notice of your big F'off country whilst Everybody pays attention to the big f'off country next door ????
Lets face it the payscales quoted on this thread for Air Canada wouldn't even cover a reasonable bar bill in Hong Kong, 'tis no wonder Mr.9 years at CX but wish I worked for AC is still in Hong Kong...............you could be a Silly little toy jet Captain on 50% less than you earn as a CX F/O.............. whoopee, and live with all those white trash women instead of having your pick of the cream of Asia.............................
what else, Oh, yes, "I'd rather have a defined benefits pension" all well and good until your wonderful management spend the pension fund on keeping your company afloat and then tell you, "Sorry, your $12,000 a month is only going to be $2000" I'll take a big lump of cash paid every month to a third party in an account in MY name, thank you very much...................
Honestly. it's like trying to educate pork..........................
Lets face it the payscales quoted on this thread for Air Canada wouldn't even cover a reasonable bar bill in Hong Kong, 'tis no wonder Mr.9 years at CX but wish I worked for AC is still in Hong Kong...............you could be a Silly little toy jet Captain on 50% less than you earn as a CX F/O.............. whoopee, and live with all those white trash women instead of having your pick of the cream of Asia.............................
what else, Oh, yes, "I'd rather have a defined benefits pension" all well and good until your wonderful management spend the pension fund on keeping your company afloat and then tell you, "Sorry, your $12,000 a month is only going to be $2000" I'll take a big lump of cash paid every month to a third party in an account in MY name, thank you very much...................
Honestly. it's like trying to educate pork..........................
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tamalai: With statements like that you are doing a good job of turning anyone off from wanting to join Cx. But I guess that is your goal. With that kind of an attitude I'd hate to find out what you'd be like to deal with in the cockpit.
As far as AC or Cx being bettter or worse to work for I belive it all boils down to your attitude and priorities. I know pilots at both airlines and some are happy some are not. For someone to pack up and bring their family (if they have one) to asia is a huge committment but one that could pay off if, like I said you dive in with the right attitude. As far as AC hiring 600 pilots that is great if it all happens. AC is not out of the woods yet and surely has a rocky road ahead. 77mill dollar loss in the last quarter, and those are the #'s on paper, I'd love to see the real #'s before writing various things off. I don't work for any of these two airlines but looking at all the hardship that me and many of my friends have endured in form of lay-off's, wage cut's, forced moves etc. has has left a sour taste in my mouth as far as Canadian aviation goes. I realize the grass allways looks greener on the other side, but I would most definetly go to Cx if given the opportunity.
All I want is some stability and a decent paycheck, that's all!
I know Goonybird is complaining about crossing the pacific 2 or 3 times a month, well it does not matter where you are or what you do it will become routine sooner or later.
As far as AC or Cx being bettter or worse to work for I belive it all boils down to your attitude and priorities. I know pilots at both airlines and some are happy some are not. For someone to pack up and bring their family (if they have one) to asia is a huge committment but one that could pay off if, like I said you dive in with the right attitude. As far as AC hiring 600 pilots that is great if it all happens. AC is not out of the woods yet and surely has a rocky road ahead. 77mill dollar loss in the last quarter, and those are the #'s on paper, I'd love to see the real #'s before writing various things off. I don't work for any of these two airlines but looking at all the hardship that me and many of my friends have endured in form of lay-off's, wage cut's, forced moves etc. has has left a sour taste in my mouth as far as Canadian aviation goes. I realize the grass allways looks greener on the other side, but I would most definetly go to Cx if given the opportunity.
All I want is some stability and a decent paycheck, that's all!
I know Goonybird is complaining about crossing the pacific 2 or 3 times a month, well it does not matter where you are or what you do it will become routine sooner or later.
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Goonybird,
The assumptions I made concerning your background were reasonable given the incorrect information you were giving out.
So if you went on a base ASAP why do you complain about not seeing your kids grow up? Did you live at your base? Did you not have 15-18 days off a month? If you can't stand being away then why don't you get an office job? Being away is the nature of our career.
Stimulating? Nothing about airline flying is stimulating to me. I haven't been stimulated with flying since I left the military. But, it is a great job and one that allows me to enjoy life with my family.
Financially speaking, sure you can use the housing allowance to maximize your net worth but just speaking on salary alone...starting salary is twice that of AC and after several years the gap narrows to almost a similar salary if your "B" scale so the lost salary at the start is never made up. Also, with AC you were paying 45-55% taxes on that salary versus 8-12% in HK with family discounts.
Defined Benefit Pension? It could have been gone with the recent CCAA but they scraped through retaining it this time. Would you really like to plan your retirement based on a theoretical pension? It's not secure and could be lost at any time.
Lastly, if you don't enjoy your work/life then change it. Life is too short to be miserable everyday. Make a career change and learn to enjoy that change or make some simple changes within the company and learn to enjoy life.
tamalai,
Why do you have such a problem with Canadians? I'm convinced your a Brit aren't you? Or an Australian/Brit want to be maybe?
The real reason is because Canadians don't take crap and you don't like that. The crap I see SOME Brits dish out is just incredable. They and probably you have a real problem. Anti-social with others? Only have fun with your pip-pip friends? One of those that talks big but can't fly your way out of a wet paper bag when things go for sh**? Yup seen it before. So, are you one of those aces?
The assumptions I made concerning your background were reasonable given the incorrect information you were giving out.
So if you went on a base ASAP why do you complain about not seeing your kids grow up? Did you live at your base? Did you not have 15-18 days off a month? If you can't stand being away then why don't you get an office job? Being away is the nature of our career.
Stimulating? Nothing about airline flying is stimulating to me. I haven't been stimulated with flying since I left the military. But, it is a great job and one that allows me to enjoy life with my family.
Financially speaking, sure you can use the housing allowance to maximize your net worth but just speaking on salary alone...starting salary is twice that of AC and after several years the gap narrows to almost a similar salary if your "B" scale so the lost salary at the start is never made up. Also, with AC you were paying 45-55% taxes on that salary versus 8-12% in HK with family discounts.
Defined Benefit Pension? It could have been gone with the recent CCAA but they scraped through retaining it this time. Would you really like to plan your retirement based on a theoretical pension? It's not secure and could be lost at any time.
Lastly, if you don't enjoy your work/life then change it. Life is too short to be miserable everyday. Make a career change and learn to enjoy that change or make some simple changes within the company and learn to enjoy life.
tamalai,
Why do you have such a problem with Canadians? I'm convinced your a Brit aren't you? Or an Australian/Brit want to be maybe?
The real reason is because Canadians don't take crap and you don't like that. The crap I see SOME Brits dish out is just incredable. They and probably you have a real problem. Anti-social with others? Only have fun with your pip-pip friends? One of those that talks big but can't fly your way out of a wet paper bag when things go for sh**? Yup seen it before. So, are you one of those aces?
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tamalai,
Thank you for your enlightening input, but for anyone that is not Canadian, contrasting the two companies is pointless as Air Canada does not hire expats.
For those of us that are Canadian however, the comparison is perfectly valid. It is obvious that CX pays quite a bit more, but the cost of living in Canada is significantly less than that of HK, and a job at AC involves quite a bit less lifestyle upset with regards to moving a family etc.
Furthermore, for those of us with spouses that are employed here in Canada, total family income has to be considered. While my wife may be able to find some sort of employment in HK, it is doubtful that her career would be transferrable directly, so that would mean flushing a $150K education pretty much down the drain for her.
But as I said, thanks for your input into an discussion that concerns you in no way whatsoever!
Thank you for your enlightening input, but for anyone that is not Canadian, contrasting the two companies is pointless as Air Canada does not hire expats.
For those of us that are Canadian however, the comparison is perfectly valid. It is obvious that CX pays quite a bit more, but the cost of living in Canada is significantly less than that of HK, and a job at AC involves quite a bit less lifestyle upset with regards to moving a family etc.
Furthermore, for those of us with spouses that are employed here in Canada, total family income has to be considered. While my wife may be able to find some sort of employment in HK, it is doubtful that her career would be transferrable directly, so that would mean flushing a $150K education pretty much down the drain for her.
But as I said, thanks for your input into an discussion that concerns you in no way whatsoever!
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Tamalai,
I wonder how many low-class, un-educated, red-neck racists like you are at CX but if it's more than just you it would make CX a very undesirable place to work in. Next time you flare your A340, just remember the airplane is talking to you directly.......retard.
I wonder how many low-class, un-educated, red-neck racists like you are at CX but if it's more than just you it would make CX a very undesirable place to work in. Next time you flare your A340, just remember the airplane is talking to you directly.......retard.
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tamalai
Tamalai - Take this as your final warning, you have stepped close to the line before but your most recent post on this thread is unacceptable racist rubbish. I'm leaving it here for others to see and respond to but if you post anything like this again you will be banned from the Fragrant Harbour forums, remember, Final Warning. BlueEagle - Moderator.
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Gooney:
Touch on Staff Travel, please. In detail. (Anyone else care to share Staff Travel griefs - or good - stories???)
A sincere thanks to all the contributors here to-date. Mostly productive info with a scattering of a few chuckles here and there. Thanks, most everyone.
....This thread is far from dead.
Touch on Staff Travel, please. In detail. (Anyone else care to share Staff Travel griefs - or good - stories???)
A sincere thanks to all the contributors here to-date. Mostly productive info with a scattering of a few chuckles here and there. Thanks, most everyone.
....This thread is far from dead.
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CPdude,
You have some fair enough comments.
However if I were getting 15-18 days off a month I wouldn't be on here complaining about my roster. I just looked at 2005 to date and my best month was 13 days. I've never said the money is better at AC, only the lifestyle. The problem most CX pilots have is that they cannot distinquish between pay and lifestyle, the two are not synonymous.( as a CDN resident I pay the same taxes as someone at AC) By the way, I am working on a change that will take me out of CX in the not too distant future.
With regard to defined benefit pensions I suggest some light reading of the pension laws in Canada. A compnay sponsoring a DB plan cannot simply spend the money within the plan, it's held outside the company. What they can do, and what did happen is a company can take a contribution holiday if the fund is fully funded. (CX has been on a holiday for years for the old "A" scale scheme) AC took a holiday in 2000 while riding the wave of the tech laden stock market. The problem began when the market crashed in combination with the contribution holiday, creating an "underfunded" plan. What Victor Li wanted to do was right off the under funded portion of the plan and move staff to a defined contribution, thus removing the future risk and the obligation of topping up the years they took as holiday. Enough on that dry stuff!!
So lets touch on staff travel...CX staff pay ZED fares for travel on their own airline.. HKG-YVR-HKG aprox. 300-500 CAD on CX depending on class of service. If the info I'm given from friends at AC is correct they pay about one tenth that. Any AC staff care to comment??
tamalai, your post is disgusting!Get some professional help.
You have some fair enough comments.
However if I were getting 15-18 days off a month I wouldn't be on here complaining about my roster. I just looked at 2005 to date and my best month was 13 days. I've never said the money is better at AC, only the lifestyle. The problem most CX pilots have is that they cannot distinquish between pay and lifestyle, the two are not synonymous.( as a CDN resident I pay the same taxes as someone at AC) By the way, I am working on a change that will take me out of CX in the not too distant future.
With regard to defined benefit pensions I suggest some light reading of the pension laws in Canada. A compnay sponsoring a DB plan cannot simply spend the money within the plan, it's held outside the company. What they can do, and what did happen is a company can take a contribution holiday if the fund is fully funded. (CX has been on a holiday for years for the old "A" scale scheme) AC took a holiday in 2000 while riding the wave of the tech laden stock market. The problem began when the market crashed in combination with the contribution holiday, creating an "underfunded" plan. What Victor Li wanted to do was right off the under funded portion of the plan and move staff to a defined contribution, thus removing the future risk and the obligation of topping up the years they took as holiday. Enough on that dry stuff!!
So lets touch on staff travel...CX staff pay ZED fares for travel on their own airline.. HKG-YVR-HKG aprox. 300-500 CAD on CX depending on class of service. If the info I'm given from friends at AC is correct they pay about one tenth that. Any AC staff care to comment??
tamalai, your post is disgusting!Get some professional help.
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Goonybird,
The comments you make are also very reasonable. I agree the staff travel at CX is a joke.
The real problem at CX is the job can be so dramatically different depending on fleet, base and position of the crew member. Now I'm sure some AC guy is going to jump in and say that flying long days on the RJ or sitting reserve is not fun but at least at AC as you get more senior you get (A) more money and (B) more opportunity for a better roster. At CX we have some F/O's making more than some Captains and you could be one of the most senior pilots in the company and end up with a horrendous roster. I've seen F/O's rostered 55 hours month after month with Relief F/O's flying 85-90 hours. I just spoke to a Captain that was over 100 hours but then you will find another on the same fleet at only 75 hours. What is with that? So as I said, CX can be great or it can suck depending on the factors I stated above.
The comments you make are also very reasonable. I agree the staff travel at CX is a joke.
The real problem at CX is the job can be so dramatically different depending on fleet, base and position of the crew member. Now I'm sure some AC guy is going to jump in and say that flying long days on the RJ or sitting reserve is not fun but at least at AC as you get more senior you get (A) more money and (B) more opportunity for a better roster. At CX we have some F/O's making more than some Captains and you could be one of the most senior pilots in the company and end up with a horrendous roster. I've seen F/O's rostered 55 hours month after month with Relief F/O's flying 85-90 hours. I just spoke to a Captain that was over 100 hours but then you will find another on the same fleet at only 75 hours. What is with that? So as I said, CX can be great or it can suck depending on the factors I stated above.