Cathay dispute/ Hiring Ban
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Cathay dispute/ Hiring Ban
Today the hiring ban should go into effect. Any reports on talks to resolve the dispute? Any comments from AOA members or new hires being affected by this? How are people treating one another?
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Attached is an article from today's local English speaking rag. You will note Looney Tunes, running the AOA, still haven't quite woken up to the fact that 'limited industrial action' indeed ANY industrial action at a time when the company is deciding how many aircraft to park, is not a terribly intelligent stance.
Quote
Wednesday, October 10, 2001
Pilots to fight on into new year
Cathay union issues profit warning and labels management 'criminal' for rejecting talks offer
VICTORIA BUTTON
Cathay Pacific pilots yesterday said they were prepared to continue industrial action beyond Christmas, and warned that the airline could lose money this year.
Aircrew Officers' Association general secretary John Findlay said management was "criminal" for refusing a union offer of an unconditional return to formal negotiations on pay and rostering.
He cited one analyst as saying losses caused by the industrial action could so far be as high as $800 million, but the union could help the company's financial state if a settlement was reached.
Cathay's director of corporate development, Tony Tyler, said the industrial action had stopped having any effect on passenger numbers or flight delays.
"It is in fact what you might call virtual industrial action, or phoney industrial action," he said.
But the company was not prepared to negotiate while the industrial action was under way.
Mr Tyler was unable to make any profit or loss forecast, but said passenger levels on trans-Pacific routes had collapsed after the American terrorist attacks last month.
Flights normally 70 to 80 per cent full were now flying at about 50 per cent capacity.
Stockmarket analysts disagreed with the union's prediction that Cathay could suffer a loss this year but expected profits would be down 50 to 60 per cent on last year's record $5 billion.
"It really depends how much traffic falls in the fourth quarter of the year, but the airline has said as recently as two weeks ago that it was still profitable," said one Hong Kong-based aviation analyst with a major European brokerage.
Mr Tyler said the tough economic climate meant pilot demands for more money and time off could not be met.
Mr Findlay said the American attacks had not changed the fact that pilots had "had enough" on issues such as rostering, which he said was at the heart of the dispute.
"I'm afraid to say we will continue our dispute until there is a negotiated settlement," he said.
The union held a media briefing to mark the three months since Cathay sacked 49 pilots on July 9.
Fifty-three pilots have been sacked during the dispute, with one re-instated but demoted.
It also has emerged that two more pilots were demoted recently, but neither the union nor the company would comment on the circumstances as appeals were under way.
Mr Findlay said yesterday that pilots who joined Cathay before any negotiated settlement would be made to feel unwelcome and barred from joining the union or its overseas counterparts - which could harm their career prospects internationally.
The union has written to Cathay requesting that it avoid rostering on about 20 pilots who are due to start work before January. The union says that in the interests of promoting safety and avoiding cockpit conflict, they should not fly with union pilots.
Cathay plans to roster the new pilots on as normal and has denied that the situation is a safety issue.
Unquote
Quote
Wednesday, October 10, 2001
Pilots to fight on into new year
Cathay union issues profit warning and labels management 'criminal' for rejecting talks offer
VICTORIA BUTTON
Cathay Pacific pilots yesterday said they were prepared to continue industrial action beyond Christmas, and warned that the airline could lose money this year.
Aircrew Officers' Association general secretary John Findlay said management was "criminal" for refusing a union offer of an unconditional return to formal negotiations on pay and rostering.
He cited one analyst as saying losses caused by the industrial action could so far be as high as $800 million, but the union could help the company's financial state if a settlement was reached.
Cathay's director of corporate development, Tony Tyler, said the industrial action had stopped having any effect on passenger numbers or flight delays.
"It is in fact what you might call virtual industrial action, or phoney industrial action," he said.
But the company was not prepared to negotiate while the industrial action was under way.
Mr Tyler was unable to make any profit or loss forecast, but said passenger levels on trans-Pacific routes had collapsed after the American terrorist attacks last month.
Flights normally 70 to 80 per cent full were now flying at about 50 per cent capacity.
Stockmarket analysts disagreed with the union's prediction that Cathay could suffer a loss this year but expected profits would be down 50 to 60 per cent on last year's record $5 billion.
"It really depends how much traffic falls in the fourth quarter of the year, but the airline has said as recently as two weeks ago that it was still profitable," said one Hong Kong-based aviation analyst with a major European brokerage.
Mr Tyler said the tough economic climate meant pilot demands for more money and time off could not be met.
Mr Findlay said the American attacks had not changed the fact that pilots had "had enough" on issues such as rostering, which he said was at the heart of the dispute.
"I'm afraid to say we will continue our dispute until there is a negotiated settlement," he said.
The union held a media briefing to mark the three months since Cathay sacked 49 pilots on July 9.
Fifty-three pilots have been sacked during the dispute, with one re-instated but demoted.
It also has emerged that two more pilots were demoted recently, but neither the union nor the company would comment on the circumstances as appeals were under way.
Mr Findlay said yesterday that pilots who joined Cathay before any negotiated settlement would be made to feel unwelcome and barred from joining the union or its overseas counterparts - which could harm their career prospects internationally.
The union has written to Cathay requesting that it avoid rostering on about 20 pilots who are due to start work before January. The union says that in the interests of promoting safety and avoiding cockpit conflict, they should not fly with union pilots.
Cathay plans to roster the new pilots on as normal and has denied that the situation is a safety issue.
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AOA will victimise new joiners as they will be perceived to be aligned with management and management dont give a toss either way, as all pilots are just numbers on the bottom line.
If new joiners do not take the start date they are offered... CX will not offer another course EVER. (yes this is fact!) If you do take the job AOA will make you "feel most unwelcome".
You lose either way - No job or ***** job.
Management seem unwilling to negotiate with the AOA.... so no change to the satis quo is imminent.
AOA think the victimsation, of new joiners, could be so bad that they want them to fly with only non-union crews! Are you serious?
Is dividing the pilot body the managements plan?
The recruitment ban is in place. No-one refutes that and its consequences but punishing new joiners (when their only other option is unemployment) creates more victims.
Their crime is timing. Timing of interviews & timing of their course date. A date CX is unwilling to change.
CX are driving a wedge into the AOA and the AOA, if it comes out fighting, is going to target new joiners. Surely thats not kosher.
Is it 'divide and conquer' or 'smoke screen and mirrors'. Misdirecting the AOA towards targeting new joiners also helps management.
The 49ers cause is just... but surely the AOA has enough ammunition to avoid creating more victims in this ugly dispute.
CX may only make a HK$2billion profit this year. Compared to the rest of the world I'd say management are very happy with that.
This world is ugly enough at the moment...the AOA is nearly begging to get back to negotiations. Is it too much to ask for management to show some goodwill too?
Likewise AOA to new joiners?
Is their that much hatred in the hearts and bile in the guts in HKG?
If new joiners do not take the start date they are offered... CX will not offer another course EVER. (yes this is fact!) If you do take the job AOA will make you "feel most unwelcome".
You lose either way - No job or ***** job.
Management seem unwilling to negotiate with the AOA.... so no change to the satis quo is imminent.
AOA think the victimsation, of new joiners, could be so bad that they want them to fly with only non-union crews! Are you serious?
Is dividing the pilot body the managements plan?
The recruitment ban is in place. No-one refutes that and its consequences but punishing new joiners (when their only other option is unemployment) creates more victims.
Their crime is timing. Timing of interviews & timing of their course date. A date CX is unwilling to change.
CX are driving a wedge into the AOA and the AOA, if it comes out fighting, is going to target new joiners. Surely thats not kosher.
Is it 'divide and conquer' or 'smoke screen and mirrors'. Misdirecting the AOA towards targeting new joiners also helps management.
The 49ers cause is just... but surely the AOA has enough ammunition to avoid creating more victims in this ugly dispute.
CX may only make a HK$2billion profit this year. Compared to the rest of the world I'd say management are very happy with that.
This world is ugly enough at the moment...the AOA is nearly begging to get back to negotiations. Is it too much to ask for management to show some goodwill too?
Likewise AOA to new joiners?
Is their that much hatred in the hearts and bile in the guts in HKG?
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With all the lay offs in tha aviation world it's nice to see the fat A scale pilots still try and get more money.I have always disliked unions that was only there for there own self interest, this one proves it.I have friends that our B scale or freighter pilots and the AOA is not interested in getting them a better deal!!. So fire the A scalers and hire a fresh bunch, I think there are a lot of us looking.
To our USA friends our thoughts are still with you over NY.
To our USA friends our thoughts are still with you over NY.
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Jungly
Yes there is, and it is hard to believe that 'brother' fliers are using their potential colleagues as pawns in this affair. I doubt if many pilots worldwide would not support the sacked pilots in their plight. I certainly do, and all power to the Cx elbow in busting the union busters. But the AOA is determined to use any tactic to achieve its ends, even if that means denying pilots the opportunity of joining Cathay. Some at Cathay will say that they would not want to join anyway, but that is a decision for the individual.
To expect a pilot to sacrifice his or her career for the furtherance of another's/others is, I think, unreasonable. To then act in sulky silence if rostered to fly with one who had the balls to think for themself, is childish and unprofessional. Surely all your efforts need to directed against those with whom you have the gripe.
Yes there is, and it is hard to believe that 'brother' fliers are using their potential colleagues as pawns in this affair. I doubt if many pilots worldwide would not support the sacked pilots in their plight. I certainly do, and all power to the Cx elbow in busting the union busters. But the AOA is determined to use any tactic to achieve its ends, even if that means denying pilots the opportunity of joining Cathay. Some at Cathay will say that they would not want to join anyway, but that is a decision for the individual.
To expect a pilot to sacrifice his or her career for the furtherance of another's/others is, I think, unreasonable. To then act in sulky silence if rostered to fly with one who had the balls to think for themself, is childish and unprofessional. Surely all your efforts need to directed against those with whom you have the gripe.
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Angus
You are misinformed. My A scale chums have taken significant pay cuts in return for stock options (okay under performing right now) and, as far as I am aware, haven't been after more money. They want(ed) stable rostering and respect and cooperation from their management. Not much to ask for? The main union support is from recent joiners (post '93) who have decided life with Cathay sucks. Maybe it was better flying turbo probs around Winnipeg after all?
You are misinformed. My A scale chums have taken significant pay cuts in return for stock options (okay under performing right now) and, as far as I am aware, haven't been after more money. They want(ed) stable rostering and respect and cooperation from their management. Not much to ask for? The main union support is from recent joiners (post '93) who have decided life with Cathay sucks. Maybe it was better flying turbo probs around Winnipeg after all?
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Management are rapidly realising that the only way out is to fire everyone and reissue contracts to those they consider suitable. Roll on, so those who have a gripe get out now before you are fired!
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The A scalers are humanoids not greedy scaremongers. There is no rift between the A and the B scale.
There are differences of emphasis. Among the A scale there are those that have taken basings and are now back in HK. There are those that are in HK and want basings...some again.Indeed a complete demogarphich of homo sapiens.
I think outside observers misunderstand the fact that 100% of the drivers want the company to grow and prosper. Current on-time records show that to be the case.
Where we are now is in a kind of Mexican standoff where both sides still want to show their fangs but do so with good intentions.
If I weren to be picking a fight...I would pick one I could win. Clearly boths sides realise this is not possible but there is face on the line.
At the risk of being called a......le again by BusyB I ride unsheathed into the fray.
Bury the hatchet. Have an open meeting and put all the cards on the table. Everyone in CX wants to make it the best in the biz. It is ..so let it be.
Again...I say that those on the side will not be discarded as long as they agree to let management manage. Ask and be granted due process but for God's sake keep it out of the courts and the press because if all this goes to court or arbitered by CNN, we know who will win...the lawyers. They will probnably insist that OJ becomes DFO.
Let's get with the program...which is to stop the 400's from being parked next to the outhouse and every landing doing a tour of HAECO.
On On
There are differences of emphasis. Among the A scale there are those that have taken basings and are now back in HK. There are those that are in HK and want basings...some again.Indeed a complete demogarphich of homo sapiens.
I think outside observers misunderstand the fact that 100% of the drivers want the company to grow and prosper. Current on-time records show that to be the case.
Where we are now is in a kind of Mexican standoff where both sides still want to show their fangs but do so with good intentions.
If I weren to be picking a fight...I would pick one I could win. Clearly boths sides realise this is not possible but there is face on the line.
At the risk of being called a......le again by BusyB I ride unsheathed into the fray.
Bury the hatchet. Have an open meeting and put all the cards on the table. Everyone in CX wants to make it the best in the biz. It is ..so let it be.
Again...I say that those on the side will not be discarded as long as they agree to let management manage. Ask and be granted due process but for God's sake keep it out of the courts and the press because if all this goes to court or arbitered by CNN, we know who will win...the lawyers. They will probnably insist that OJ becomes DFO.
Let's get with the program...which is to stop the 400's from being parked next to the outhouse and every landing doing a tour of HAECO.
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~ don't you think the new joiners also want to be put of a successful airline...and indeed, keen to make that happen.
I respect your positive approach but in the same breath the AOA is picking a fight it can win, with anyone breaking the recruitment ban. (My point is the bully-boy tactics prove nothing - just create more victims)
The AOA website press releases indicate that informal talks look positive for the 49ers. I think the AOA know only too well that they can get the jobs back (and that is brill)....but why won't management come to the negotiating table now?
Perhaps management want some ban breakers in the system....cannon fodder for both sides...but it does show they have the power of recruitment over the AOA.
Too much testosturone (sp?) and muscle-flexing, not enough chit chat?
I respect your positive approach but in the same breath the AOA is picking a fight it can win, with anyone breaking the recruitment ban. (My point is the bully-boy tactics prove nothing - just create more victims)
The AOA website press releases indicate that informal talks look positive for the 49ers. I think the AOA know only too well that they can get the jobs back (and that is brill)....but why won't management come to the negotiating table now?
Perhaps management want some ban breakers in the system....cannon fodder for both sides...but it does show they have the power of recruitment over the AOA.
Too much testosturone (sp?) and muscle-flexing, not enough chit chat?
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Don't you find it a little interesting that there are no AOA members posting on this forum, and the only opinions you are reading are those of a very subjective management who are frustrated and self-protective?
I would suggest to all concerned that you are unlikely to get a balanced analysis here.
This is no way to start career research. There are many more unprejudiced forums, libraries, aviation publications etc., that would provide you with a far more impartial view.
A word of advice gents (and ladies)...Snake Hips and other BBS terrorists are NOT the way, the truth or the light.
I would suggest to all concerned that you are unlikely to get a balanced analysis here.
This is no way to start career research. There are many more unprejudiced forums, libraries, aviation publications etc., that would provide you with a far more impartial view.
A word of advice gents (and ladies)...Snake Hips and other BBS terrorists are NOT the way, the truth or the light.
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Is it not a little ironic that the AOA members are threatening intimidation on the flight deck for those new joiners. Not really in the spirit of the "Maximum Safety Policy" - hardly good CRM.
Furthermore the attitude to AOA members from gound and cabin staff is getting progressively worse. Somehow I think that the AOA pilots will fare out worst - don't forget your sandwiches guys.
The selfish actions of this so called group of "professionals" has weakened the airline, and when the 13th month payment is canned, and the job and pay cuts start, the recriminations will start.
Furthermore the attitude to AOA members from gound and cabin staff is getting progressively worse. Somehow I think that the AOA pilots will fare out worst - don't forget your sandwiches guys.
The selfish actions of this so called group of "professionals" has weakened the airline, and when the 13th month payment is canned, and the job and pay cuts start, the recriminations will start.
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A total of twelve aircraft, but not sure of the types at the moment, this from a very reliable source in CX. Mostly older types, I would think. The story does seem to change daily though....
As for the AOA, dead in the water with NO hope of a successful outcome. Pity these misguided guys cannot see the light. Many bitter days ahead for these malcontents.
As for the AOA, dead in the water with NO hope of a successful outcome. Pity these misguided guys cannot see the light. Many bitter days ahead for these malcontents.
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Well ess jay, my source could be incorrect, but on the other hand, UAL is parking 14 747's, all -400's I believe, within 4 months. This was unthinkable just a few months ago. CX may be in the same boat....to much capacity. Freighters may be parked as well as the cargo rates in Asia have gone in the basement. Very different times now, sad to say.
And.......just who would those 'non-union' pilots be that the new joiners may expect to fly with??????
Union membership is running in the high 90's % which includes A and B scalers.
This dispute was never about salaries and if you have that impression you're misinformed.
It's about being given a roster and not flying a SINGLE rostered trip for months on end. It's about turning up for a rostered short haul and being given a 16 hour sector to toronto with an immediate 'deadhead' back via anchorage.
It's about being called 10 times a day and given a plethora of trips/reserves/last minute "can you be here in 1/2 an hour" ....on your 8 days off per month!
We've all had it before,worked harder,flown **** equipment,had assholes for bosses ...and after 20 years of getting up the ladder one step at a time do we chuck it all away because a couple of accountants don't give a **** that saving $10 on crewing costs you a lifetime invested and a marriage?....i for one think not.
The pilots here used to fly on days off for free,used to happily 'go the extra mile' and had the industry's lowest sick leave.....ALL of the 'goodwill' was entirely destroyed by a short-sighted attack on operating crew numbers,rosters,and remuneration(B-scales).
It didn't work in the USA and it won't last here either.
If you aspire to struggle for half your lifetime and join a carrier worth working for then 'get informed'. Goodluck to the new joiners..it's going to be tough...but then you already knew that.
Union membership is running in the high 90's % which includes A and B scalers.
This dispute was never about salaries and if you have that impression you're misinformed.
It's about being given a roster and not flying a SINGLE rostered trip for months on end. It's about turning up for a rostered short haul and being given a 16 hour sector to toronto with an immediate 'deadhead' back via anchorage.
It's about being called 10 times a day and given a plethora of trips/reserves/last minute "can you be here in 1/2 an hour" ....on your 8 days off per month!
We've all had it before,worked harder,flown **** equipment,had assholes for bosses ...and after 20 years of getting up the ladder one step at a time do we chuck it all away because a couple of accountants don't give a **** that saving $10 on crewing costs you a lifetime invested and a marriage?....i for one think not.
The pilots here used to fly on days off for free,used to happily 'go the extra mile' and had the industry's lowest sick leave.....ALL of the 'goodwill' was entirely destroyed by a short-sighted attack on operating crew numbers,rosters,and remuneration(B-scales).
It didn't work in the USA and it won't last here either.
If you aspire to struggle for half your lifetime and join a carrier worth working for then 'get informed'. Goodluck to the new joiners..it's going to be tough...but then you already knew that.
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Good luck?
These guys have run out of luck and excuses as well....the only option is for these malcontents to give-in to management, and say "Yes Sir" when spoken to...a sorry lot indeed. In the end, many will leave, and will most likely not be missed. A few will bite the bullet and stay...to be rewarded later? Why should they, when they joined, they asked for work, did they not? And now the only excuse they can give is......my family wants me home.
Tough sh@t.
These guys have run out of luck and excuses as well....the only option is for these malcontents to give-in to management, and say "Yes Sir" when spoken to...a sorry lot indeed. In the end, many will leave, and will most likely not be missed. A few will bite the bullet and stay...to be rewarded later? Why should they, when they joined, they asked for work, did they not? And now the only excuse they can give is......my family wants me home.
Tough sh@t.