Disaster at CX - 49 Fired
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Diamond MPO:
it is understandable that you feel this way, of course ( I'm not a CX pilot, BTW ) but I am sure you would not travel CX if you thought the crews were unfit for duty or rushed into the flight by last minute destination changes.
This is what has beeen going on.
Incredibly, the crews have put up with it for ages, now their frustration is being vented. It's not aimed at you - indeed you're the last person they wish to get under the skin of.
It would be only fair of you, and would show incredible enlightenment, if you post a similar message to CX management in the HKG press. Fair's fair, eh? Believe me, CX senior managers don't really care about you right now - but they should. This is all about egos, and the inability of companies doing business in Asia to be seen to be giving in to staff in any way. Face is critical. I spoke to the current CEO of CX over a decade ago, and he said then if he made it to the top, the pilots were his #1 target. It's personal with him. You're in the crossfire.
Now you know the truth.
it is understandable that you feel this way, of course ( I'm not a CX pilot, BTW ) but I am sure you would not travel CX if you thought the crews were unfit for duty or rushed into the flight by last minute destination changes.
This is what has beeen going on.
Incredibly, the crews have put up with it for ages, now their frustration is being vented. It's not aimed at you - indeed you're the last person they wish to get under the skin of.
It would be only fair of you, and would show incredible enlightenment, if you post a similar message to CX management in the HKG press. Fair's fair, eh? Believe me, CX senior managers don't really care about you right now - but they should. This is all about egos, and the inability of companies doing business in Asia to be seen to be giving in to staff in any way. Face is critical. I spoke to the current CEO of CX over a decade ago, and he said then if he made it to the top, the pilots were his #1 target. It's personal with him. You're in the crossfire.
Now you know the truth.
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Diamond MPO
The inconvenience you feel is probably the way the rest of HK pax feels. However, just because you are inconvenienced does not mean that the pilots are wrong. Pilots, just like yourself, are employees of a company. When their working conditions deteriorate, they should have a right to discuss it with their employer. Unfortunately, we're just in the crossfire.
How would you feel if you went to work on Monday, expecting to be home right after work, and suddenly being told of an immediate business trip and be gone for the rest of the week. And when you return on Friday, expecting 2 days off, when all of a sudden, you're told you'll have to leave again on Sunday. Not much of a life, eh?
I'm not a pilot (yet), but I would hope for some sort of stability and plan out my family life. It's unfortunate that we are all inconvenienced by this dispute but we can all hope that a resolution can be made soon. Don't just look at the picture from one side.
Regards,
The inconvenience you feel is probably the way the rest of HK pax feels. However, just because you are inconvenienced does not mean that the pilots are wrong. Pilots, just like yourself, are employees of a company. When their working conditions deteriorate, they should have a right to discuss it with their employer. Unfortunately, we're just in the crossfire.
How would you feel if you went to work on Monday, expecting to be home right after work, and suddenly being told of an immediate business trip and be gone for the rest of the week. And when you return on Friday, expecting 2 days off, when all of a sudden, you're told you'll have to leave again on Sunday. Not much of a life, eh?
I'm not a pilot (yet), but I would hope for some sort of stability and plan out my family life. It's unfortunate that we are all inconvenienced by this dispute but we can all hope that a resolution can be made soon. Don't just look at the picture from one side.
Regards,
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Dear Diamond MPO Member,
I am a CX pilot and proud to be one, particularly at the present moment. What I am not proud of is the position I have been forced to take by an intransigent, prevaricating, incompetent management. I am not proud of the fact that you and the rest of the loyal CX travelling public have been inconvenienced and for that I reiterate the unequivocal apology published by the AOA, our union. However, I cannot sit back and let the misconception prevail that the disruptions are caused by pilot action. The limited industrial action in and of itself is called Maximum Safety Strategy and involves absolute adherence to the procedures laid down by the manuals provided by Cathay Pacific. You might argue that this is designed to affect the ontime performance of the company. Perhaps, but it is not intended to cancel flights. The management have elected to capitalise on the typhoon and blame the consequent disruption on the pilots. They have betrayed their commitment to their own passenger's safety by using the services of airlines whose standards are arguably inferior. They have grounded a large portion of their own fleet unecessarily to promote the perception that the pilots are all going sick and cannot be relied upon to perform the task. I myself have been on reserve for four days and have had not one call.
The AOA, on the other hand has asked the worldwide body of pilot unions, IFALPA, to instruct its members to assist Cathay Pacific Airways, if so requested, in providing services to move their passengers. Hardly the actions of a body bent on causing maximum disruption.
In conclusion, I'd like to offer a personal apolgy for the less than polite responses you have recieved on this forum and hope we can sort this unhappy situation out in the minimum time.
I am a CX pilot and proud to be one, particularly at the present moment. What I am not proud of is the position I have been forced to take by an intransigent, prevaricating, incompetent management. I am not proud of the fact that you and the rest of the loyal CX travelling public have been inconvenienced and for that I reiterate the unequivocal apology published by the AOA, our union. However, I cannot sit back and let the misconception prevail that the disruptions are caused by pilot action. The limited industrial action in and of itself is called Maximum Safety Strategy and involves absolute adherence to the procedures laid down by the manuals provided by Cathay Pacific. You might argue that this is designed to affect the ontime performance of the company. Perhaps, but it is not intended to cancel flights. The management have elected to capitalise on the typhoon and blame the consequent disruption on the pilots. They have betrayed their commitment to their own passenger's safety by using the services of airlines whose standards are arguably inferior. They have grounded a large portion of their own fleet unecessarily to promote the perception that the pilots are all going sick and cannot be relied upon to perform the task. I myself have been on reserve for four days and have had not one call.
The AOA, on the other hand has asked the worldwide body of pilot unions, IFALPA, to instruct its members to assist Cathay Pacific Airways, if so requested, in providing services to move their passengers. Hardly the actions of a body bent on causing maximum disruption.
In conclusion, I'd like to offer a personal apolgy for the less than polite responses you have recieved on this forum and hope we can sort this unhappy situation out in the minimum time.
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I have to agree 100% with Midnight Rambler.
I too will appologise for the rude and offensive posts this forum is producing. - Please let it be known that the majority of these posts are not from CX pilots.
For those that are just on this forum for the ride...................please go ride somewhere else!
null
I too will appologise for the rude and offensive posts this forum is producing. - Please let it be known that the majority of these posts are not from CX pilots.
For those that are just on this forum for the ride...................please go ride somewhere else!
null
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I have read with interest the messages posted in this forum. I too am a Diamond MPO member and have been a MPO member since 1980. Firstly I suggest should take a look at what the frequent flyers are saying since it is the fares paid by the sharp end seats that keep airlines like CX in business and your salaries (and management’s) paid. From there (Flyertalk Miles) http://www.flyertalk.com/milesfr.shtml
and under the CX section you will see what has been discussed since this action commenced. It shows there is overall sympathy with the pilots over the rostering situation but that is where it stops. Dare I say that I think your Union has let you down in this struggle by not having a negotiator of the same capability as the management side ? You should have brought in a pro negotiator with an unblinkered view of the whole situation to negotiate (that means give and take) the best deal and refer it to your members for a democratic vote. If the majority then wanted to go ahead and shoot itself in the foot then so be it. Putting it simply, the CX management has as much chance of flying a jet as you have at beating them at their own profession with your current armoury. The way it has come across is that you are in the 2nd year of a 3 year package agreement; the management made a generous (in my opinion – I run my own company, pay my own rent, school fees, medical etc and do not get 10% airfares and company provident fund) offer which was rejected by the Union negotiators without reference to your members for a vote. The package was then withdrawn. The HKAOA then commenced its annoying action. CX chartered planes and crews and as such had to use them since it was paying dearly for them anyway. The fact that this kept possible ‘slow-mode’ call it enhanced safety or whatever you like pilots sitting at home on call is irrelevant since they kept the majority of their schedules going – meanwhile giving the pilots time to get over their ‘sickness’ at home. All you are doing now is pissing off long term CX fliers like me and exhausting what little sympathy remains. Many of you would have come from other airlines like BA, Qantas or Canadian. Do we presume that because you were pilots at those airlines before then those airlines were the best because of your presence there ? Also you must consider whether the current cost cuttings and savings, etc are a decision made by the CX CEO or whether he has been directed to do so by his boss in UK ? It is my opinion that by continuing this annoying action you will see more colleagues fired and their careers effectively finished. CX will have no problem replacing your positions. You need to get in a professional negotiator with an unbiased view of the current situation and get back to the table with the management.
and under the CX section you will see what has been discussed since this action commenced. It shows there is overall sympathy with the pilots over the rostering situation but that is where it stops. Dare I say that I think your Union has let you down in this struggle by not having a negotiator of the same capability as the management side ? You should have brought in a pro negotiator with an unblinkered view of the whole situation to negotiate (that means give and take) the best deal and refer it to your members for a democratic vote. If the majority then wanted to go ahead and shoot itself in the foot then so be it. Putting it simply, the CX management has as much chance of flying a jet as you have at beating them at their own profession with your current armoury. The way it has come across is that you are in the 2nd year of a 3 year package agreement; the management made a generous (in my opinion – I run my own company, pay my own rent, school fees, medical etc and do not get 10% airfares and company provident fund) offer which was rejected by the Union negotiators without reference to your members for a vote. The package was then withdrawn. The HKAOA then commenced its annoying action. CX chartered planes and crews and as such had to use them since it was paying dearly for them anyway. The fact that this kept possible ‘slow-mode’ call it enhanced safety or whatever you like pilots sitting at home on call is irrelevant since they kept the majority of their schedules going – meanwhile giving the pilots time to get over their ‘sickness’ at home. All you are doing now is pissing off long term CX fliers like me and exhausting what little sympathy remains. Many of you would have come from other airlines like BA, Qantas or Canadian. Do we presume that because you were pilots at those airlines before then those airlines were the best because of your presence there ? Also you must consider whether the current cost cuttings and savings, etc are a decision made by the CX CEO or whether he has been directed to do so by his boss in UK ? It is my opinion that by continuing this annoying action you will see more colleagues fired and their careers effectively finished. CX will have no problem replacing your positions. You need to get in a professional negotiator with an unbiased view of the current situation and get back to the table with the management.
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Articulately put MR.
We may not have a deep warchest of money however we can be quietly confident of holding the moral high ground.
When I heard the comment on CNN by TT of 'If you want the hours then look at the pilot's logbooks' I saw the cracks appearing in the management strategy. They must have been cringeing in Swire House over that gaffe.
Keep calm, maintain dignity, be courteous (and helpful where possible) to our cabin crew/ground crew colleagues and keep up the spirits of those most vulnerable aircrew members.
Best regds
MI
[ 13 July 2001: Message edited by: Mark Itforsus ]
We may not have a deep warchest of money however we can be quietly confident of holding the moral high ground.
When I heard the comment on CNN by TT of 'If you want the hours then look at the pilot's logbooks' I saw the cracks appearing in the management strategy. They must have been cringeing in Swire House over that gaffe.
Keep calm, maintain dignity, be courteous (and helpful where possible) to our cabin crew/ground crew colleagues and keep up the spirits of those most vulnerable aircrew members.
Best regds
MI
[ 13 July 2001: Message edited by: Mark Itforsus ]
I am not a CX pilot nor did I pretend to be. My profile quite clearly states my professional background. I am entitled to an opinion in response to Diamond MPO Member's comments. We in ATC today face the same sort of frustrations associated with safety. The majority of our senior management have no ATC background. The only thing they understand is cost cutting by reducing staff under the guise of "cost efficiency". This is now taking precedence over SAFETY. My contention is that Diamond MPO Member doesn't like to be inconvenienced, but if he wasn't, would he take the time and effort to support a cause which is in the interest of his SAFETY? Of course pilots and air traffic controllers don't take any pride in taking industrial action and inconveniencing the travelling public. Of course you (the passengers) are our bread and butter. But you do want to get to your destination safely don't you? The intransigence of senior management in some companies/organizations is difficult to perceive by those not subjected to it. I get a dose of it every time I go to work and I'm pretty certain that passengers such as Diamond MPO Member won't care a hoot until that is we bring it to their attention by inconveniencing them a little. Of course they may wish to wait until they are a pile of ash in the smouldering wreckage of what was once an aeroplane.......which may be a more permanent inconvenience!
OK I've had my say even though I have only scratched the surface of a very complex issue affecting the aviation world. I'll butt out as requested.
[ 13 July 2001: Message edited by: Avman ]
OK I've had my say even though I have only scratched the surface of a very complex issue affecting the aviation world. I'll butt out as requested.
[ 13 July 2001: Message edited by: Avman ]
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Hong Kong truly is a special place. One of the best things about Hong Kong is the fact that it is one of the freest places on earth to conduct business.
The freedom that all Hong Kong citizens have does carry a special burden. That burden is being felt in the current Cathay / Pilots Union dispute. This dispute is perfectly legal and within their right both as a Company and as a Union. Both parties in this dispute feel completely justified in their positions. No amount of discussion on this forum will change that. It is a shame that as a sideline to the dispute that other parties also are feeling pressured. These include other Cathay employees, travel and tourism employees and business owners and others.
No one can solely blame one party in this dispute for creating it. It has been simmering for years and involves complicated issues that should have been successfully negotiated and resolved years ago. It definitely points to a management failure, as Cathay management could have resolved these issues if they had been smarter. But, there are too many left over colonial attitudes and egos involved. Having said that, it is also evident that the pilot group could have taken other approaches that might have avoided the current situation.
But opportunities for early settlement were lost and the course has been set. This dispute will continue and not be easily resolved. If the citizens of Hong Kong want to end their suffering, there is only one remedy. Encourage Cathay Pacific to resume negotiations and reach a settlement in this dispute. Until that is done, you will continue to witness both sides exercise the precious freedoms to fight for their cause.
Take sides if you want……….that is your right also. I know I have.
The freedom that all Hong Kong citizens have does carry a special burden. That burden is being felt in the current Cathay / Pilots Union dispute. This dispute is perfectly legal and within their right both as a Company and as a Union. Both parties in this dispute feel completely justified in their positions. No amount of discussion on this forum will change that. It is a shame that as a sideline to the dispute that other parties also are feeling pressured. These include other Cathay employees, travel and tourism employees and business owners and others.
No one can solely blame one party in this dispute for creating it. It has been simmering for years and involves complicated issues that should have been successfully negotiated and resolved years ago. It definitely points to a management failure, as Cathay management could have resolved these issues if they had been smarter. But, there are too many left over colonial attitudes and egos involved. Having said that, it is also evident that the pilot group could have taken other approaches that might have avoided the current situation.
But opportunities for early settlement were lost and the course has been set. This dispute will continue and not be easily resolved. If the citizens of Hong Kong want to end their suffering, there is only one remedy. Encourage Cathay Pacific to resume negotiations and reach a settlement in this dispute. Until that is done, you will continue to witness both sides exercise the precious freedoms to fight for their cause.
Take sides if you want……….that is your right also. I know I have.
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The message is clear from many of the comments here...the HKAOA has dropped the ball big time, in the PR department.
Hardly surprising, considering their perceived notion of self importance.
Hardly surprising, considering their perceived notion of self importance.
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So the spray from the big "fountain" in the hills getting to your brain? Only 10 more posts till you explode or melt down...yes? Take a drive to Falcon and have some chicken strips at the Roost. Breathe deeply, think happy thoughts and try to love the folks that made it. Don't be so bitter. There is more to life than hating the people around you...
REEEELLLAAAAXXXXX
REEEELLLAAAAXXXXX
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You're so right there Mr Kubota, so you and your friends should read, or choose to disregard 411-a's posts, not attack his person when he posts his views...I've seen more venemous, personal attacks from the likes of you and your "union brothers" than we have from 411-a...so take your own medicine mate....
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It is a terrible thing to happen to a great company like CX to have to show such utter incompetance in handling a conflictual situation involving the ONLY non-expendable employees in an airline:cockpit crews.All these latest developments are taking place in an international context which certainly is not favorable to a tough stance by any airline management anywhere in the world.In Europe & the US, Pilot trade unions have demanded & obtained huge improvements in pay & working conditions, benefiting from a sustained growth in the industry & a forseeable shortage of cockpit crews for major airlines. I have had the chance lately to discuss these matters rather extensively with friends who are in CX management;sadly, what it boils down to is that the head of CX is totally incapable of anticipating its own cockpit crews' reactions to any form of productivity improvement. The latest measures taken seem to be just one more poke in one direction, just to test reactions. If reactions are not up to expectations, it will be assumed by people taking those new measures that they are on the right track to achieve their goals, & further similar decisions will be taken, to the detriment of the same categories of personnel. Involving cockpit crews in strategic decisions concerning the future of the company would be another direction to be explored and this can only happen if all pilots in CX show enough solidarity to force CX management to back down on the latest measures. One thing that never be forgotten is that you call the shots if & only if you are holding the high ground and that is exactly the CX pilots' porsition just now. What is left to do, to my mind, is to convince CX deciders that this is the case. It will be very difficult, if at all possible, to recruit large numbers of pilots to replace the ones being laid off within a reasonable span of time & the more publicity we can give to the rest of the profession concerning the despicable attitude of CX management in the last 2 months the harder recruiting will be. Hang in there, boys.
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I'd just like to say that the crews that I have had to work with recently have been courteous and polite and have not taken it over to the ground staff, thanks for that guys.
Jetfrog have to disagree that the Flt Deck are the only non expendable employees in an airline, no doubt they are important/essential but so are others see the following for another debate on this (although kaptain m has gone very quiet) http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimat...7&t=001804&p=6
Jetfrog have to disagree that the Flt Deck are the only non expendable employees in an airline, no doubt they are important/essential but so are others see the following for another debate on this (although kaptain m has gone very quiet) http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimat...7&t=001804&p=6
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It is always fortunate when one is so lucky to be given such insight by another with limitless Intellect.
In this case Avman, you have truly outdone yourself, your words so articulate have put me in my place and I am enlightened for the better. Thank you for your considerate and well thought out advice, you have won me over 100% and am now an ardent supporter of the pilots cause. Why? Because of you Avman, a true legend in your own mind.
Back to the lesser beings who stand at the feet of Avman and the bulging shadow cast by his ego, as well as those who apologised for Avman's earlier comments, thank you, as I said HONESTLY, I am not concerned with who get's what though I do hope this is resolved at the earliest possible time and with the least possible disturbance.
Best of luck.
In this case Avman, you have truly outdone yourself, your words so articulate have put me in my place and I am enlightened for the better. Thank you for your considerate and well thought out advice, you have won me over 100% and am now an ardent supporter of the pilots cause. Why? Because of you Avman, a true legend in your own mind.
Back to the lesser beings who stand at the feet of Avman and the bulging shadow cast by his ego, as well as those who apologised for Avman's earlier comments, thank you, as I said HONESTLY, I am not concerned with who get's what though I do hope this is resolved at the earliest possible time and with the least possible disturbance.
Best of luck.
