E.G.M.
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Why are you not on the AOA members' E mail address list out of interest.
All items approved, meeting adjourned awaiting further developments {the ball is in the Company's court to provide satisfactory progress by the 3rd Dec on 2 issues-Contract rostering definitions to eliminate current abuse and the NZ contract thing).
Bowing to obvious overwhelming pressure (which will continue on the other issues), the Company has agreed to now pay Extendee Captains A Scale pay after all. Suggestion from the floor that the 4 individuals (who DID NOT seek AOA advice prior to accepting their very selfish, greedy and immoral contracts), be invited to contribute the difference to the Sunnyside Club (overwhelming agreement from the floor, but not appropriate as a motion.)
All items approved, meeting adjourned awaiting further developments {the ball is in the Company's court to provide satisfactory progress by the 3rd Dec on 2 issues-Contract rostering definitions to eliminate current abuse and the NZ contract thing).
Bowing to obvious overwhelming pressure (which will continue on the other issues), the Company has agreed to now pay Extendee Captains A Scale pay after all. Suggestion from the floor that the 4 individuals (who DID NOT seek AOA advice prior to accepting their very selfish, greedy and immoral contracts), be invited to contribute the difference to the Sunnyside Club (overwhelming agreement from the floor, but not appropriate as a motion.)
Joined: Oct 1999
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From: bc
Are these 4 selfish people AOA members? If so should they be expelled? If not, at the very least, there should be 4 letters of apology written to the AOA commitee and its members.
Either way it will be very difficult to keep my stress level on the safe side if I show up to work and am supposed to operate with one of these greedy, pathetic boys who call themselves professionals!!!!!!!!
Either way it will be very difficult to keep my stress level on the safe side if I show up to work and am supposed to operate with one of these greedy, pathetic boys who call themselves professionals!!!!!!!!
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It is of course a given that the four persons who were prepared to carry on past normal retirement age for b scale ,should give the 30% increase in pay brought about by pressure from the AOA, to the charity of their choice.
Their lack of moral fibre is a disgrace to the profession. It shows little sensitivity to the aircrew whose support they relied on during last years fiasco. Although the AOA obviously had to give an assurance to management that the individuals in question would not be vilified, it obviously makes the whole AOA committee and membership sick that these sad,selfish characters should benefit in any way.
I for one would be unable to sit next to any of these individuals in any cockpit. I trust we all feel the same way.
Their lack of moral fibre is a disgrace to the profession. It shows little sensitivity to the aircrew whose support they relied on during last years fiasco. Although the AOA obviously had to give an assurance to management that the individuals in question would not be vilified, it obviously makes the whole AOA committee and membership sick that these sad,selfish characters should benefit in any way.
I for one would be unable to sit next to any of these individuals in any cockpit. I trust we all feel the same way.
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A great result for fairness and a slap in the face for all those involved in under the table dealings (including our Managers).
Well done everyone. Don't get your knickers in a twist and be stressed out by these selfish 'brethren'.
They're not even members of our AOA and yet we got them a deal that stands up. How dumb does THAT make them look.
Well done everyone. Don't get your knickers in a twist and be stressed out by these selfish 'brethren'.
They're not even members of our AOA and yet we got them a deal that stands up. How dumb does THAT make them look.
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It seems we have two similar threads running, so here is a copy of my post on the other thread:
Well done to all, especially the AOA and its members for bringing this about. I must say, however, that I would have been even more delighted had the outcome been that w.e.f. all future extendees would do so on A scales thereby excluding the existing handful whose actions I can never condone. Let them lie in the bed they have made for themselves! Similarly, the company's actions are reprehensible. Let's not be be overcome with the euphoria of the moment - all they have done is give back something that should never have been taken away in the first place! Whatever credibility NR may have built up has effectively been destroyed by the extendee issue and his farcical comments vis-a-vis the 1994 rostering practices. I would urge you all to maintain your resolve in order to bring about a speedy and successful resolution to the ongoing rostering practices negotiations.
Well done to all, especially the AOA and its members for bringing this about. I must say, however, that I would have been even more delighted had the outcome been that w.e.f. all future extendees would do so on A scales thereby excluding the existing handful whose actions I can never condone. Let them lie in the bed they have made for themselves! Similarly, the company's actions are reprehensible. Let's not be be overcome with the euphoria of the moment - all they have done is give back something that should never have been taken away in the first place! Whatever credibility NR may have built up has effectively been destroyed by the extendee issue and his farcical comments vis-a-vis the 1994 rostering practices. I would urge you all to maintain your resolve in order to bring about a speedy and successful resolution to the ongoing rostering practices negotiations.
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Neautral Stability,
Before you start slapping each other on the back in a fit of self congratulatory smugness, wake up to yourself.
You are saying "well done " to the A.O.A. for getting a PAY RISE for the extendees!??
If the A.O.A. doesn't start representing the interests of the majority of it's membership very swiftly, I suspect that a lot of us will vote with our feet and give ourselves a 1% pay rise by quitting the Association.
There are many B-scale people out here who resent your attitude and think that the A.O.A. has got it's priorities severly out of wack. If you are to convince the membership that "A.O.A" does not stand for "A-scalers Only Association" - then you better start listening to the membership.
Get a significant pay increase for B-scalers... NOW!
Rgds
very upset,
Beacon Outbound.
[This message has been edited by Beacon Outbound (edited 25 November 2000).]
Before you start slapping each other on the back in a fit of self congratulatory smugness, wake up to yourself.
You are saying "well done " to the A.O.A. for getting a PAY RISE for the extendees!??
If the A.O.A. doesn't start representing the interests of the majority of it's membership very swiftly, I suspect that a lot of us will vote with our feet and give ourselves a 1% pay rise by quitting the Association.
There are many B-scale people out here who resent your attitude and think that the A.O.A. has got it's priorities severly out of wack. If you are to convince the membership that "A.O.A" does not stand for "A-scalers Only Association" - then you better start listening to the membership.
Get a significant pay increase for B-scalers... NOW!
Rgds
very upset,
Beacon Outbound.
[This message has been edited by Beacon Outbound (edited 25 November 2000).]
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Beacon Outbound,
Whilst I agree that B scalers need a pay rise, do not forget that a large majority of the A scalers are having to deal with a 30% pay cut, whilst the B scalers achieved a small pay rise at the same time. Do not think that the AOA is only for that group, they are fighting as best they know how. But in order to achieve anything that need every member on side 100%.
What really annoys me is that these original extendees [pathetic individuals that they are] who undermined the entire crew body, now reap the rewards of all the hard work from the AOA and the rest of all of us, I'm afraid that it really sticks in my throat, and is very hard to swallow! We may have achieved a victory on that point, but is it going to fix the rosters ? Improve your working conditions, make your life better in any way. I don't think so.
Mike Hardy a very good DFO once stated that he was worried about a WOE campaign for the following reason. He would always be certain about the start date, but would never be certain when and if it would ever end. Personally I think that the time for action is getting closer every day. I don't trust this management in any shape or form, they keep us talking to delay taking any action. It has worked for years so why not continue with a tried and trusted formula.
How can they improve the rosters? Even if they really wanted to, which they don't! There are insufficient crews to achieve the task, there are aircraft arriving throughout next year. The only way to make this management and board sit up and take notice is to inflict a deep and very painful wound.
What comes after Christmas , Chinese New Year? every flight is full so imagine the chaos if we were to institute a rolling sick out during that period.
Do not lose hope, do not become fragmented, things will improve but you will have to fight for it first. ARE YOU COMMITTED ENOUGH ? DO YOU HAVE THE COURAGE?
Whilst I agree that B scalers need a pay rise, do not forget that a large majority of the A scalers are having to deal with a 30% pay cut, whilst the B scalers achieved a small pay rise at the same time. Do not think that the AOA is only for that group, they are fighting as best they know how. But in order to achieve anything that need every member on side 100%.
What really annoys me is that these original extendees [pathetic individuals that they are] who undermined the entire crew body, now reap the rewards of all the hard work from the AOA and the rest of all of us, I'm afraid that it really sticks in my throat, and is very hard to swallow! We may have achieved a victory on that point, but is it going to fix the rosters ? Improve your working conditions, make your life better in any way. I don't think so.
Mike Hardy a very good DFO once stated that he was worried about a WOE campaign for the following reason. He would always be certain about the start date, but would never be certain when and if it would ever end. Personally I think that the time for action is getting closer every day. I don't trust this management in any shape or form, they keep us talking to delay taking any action. It has worked for years so why not continue with a tried and trusted formula.
How can they improve the rosters? Even if they really wanted to, which they don't! There are insufficient crews to achieve the task, there are aircraft arriving throughout next year. The only way to make this management and board sit up and take notice is to inflict a deep and very painful wound.
What comes after Christmas , Chinese New Year? every flight is full so imagine the chaos if we were to institute a rolling sick out during that period.
Do not lose hope, do not become fragmented, things will improve but you will have to fight for it first. ARE YOU COMMITTED ENOUGH ? DO YOU HAVE THE COURAGE?
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Well said Conan. To the slightly unstable Beacon Outbound. As much as I normally dislike entering into a slanging match with someone whom I assume to be a fellow AOA member, here goes. If you feel that B-scalers are not represented by the AOA, then you must have previously dug a very big hole for your head and proceeded to stick it in there as far as possible. The B-scale representation on the committee is considerable. You will also find that the majority of AOA membership now consists mainly of B-scalers and has done so for some time now. The work, which the AOA president and his committee do behind the scenes, is enormous. If you were to take yourself down to the office and read the correspondence file occasionally, you would realize that a great deal of effort is expended on rebutting this management's persistent efforts to reduce not just the A-scaler overall remuneration package, but that of all its members. To name but a few, these matters range from hotel issues, through management's interpretation of commander's discretion, to rostering issues, housing, medical… and so on and so on… Although I agree with one point you made, that B-scale pay is an issue and deserves our attention, there is only so much that can be done at any one time. Many see the priority as being that of roster stability and achievable overtime thresholds. Successful resolution of this issue will bring benefits to all our members, irrespective of whether they are A-scale or B-scale.
The point I was trying to make, vis-à-vis the extendees, was that the U turn by management on this issue was not done as a self-initiated gesture of goodwill towards men, it was done as a result of quiet diplomacy behind the scenes; that work was done by men who spend numerous hours of their own time working for you and me. As a result, what has been achieved is that any extendee will do so on at least his present conditions of service. I regret that this will now include the present bunch of extendees, some of whom are not AOA members, but you can't have everything in life.
Finally, if you feel that you can achieve your industrial goals on your own, without the help of the AOA, then you are as naive as your post portrays you to be. If, as you say, you would achieve a 1% pay-rise by relinquishing your AOA membership, you would undoubtedly find this to be your last. It may be, to quote you, that there are many people out there who resent my attitude, but you may wish to consider the possibility that it is your attitude which is out of step with the majority.
The point I was trying to make, vis-à-vis the extendees, was that the U turn by management on this issue was not done as a self-initiated gesture of goodwill towards men, it was done as a result of quiet diplomacy behind the scenes; that work was done by men who spend numerous hours of their own time working for you and me. As a result, what has been achieved is that any extendee will do so on at least his present conditions of service. I regret that this will now include the present bunch of extendees, some of whom are not AOA members, but you can't have everything in life.
Finally, if you feel that you can achieve your industrial goals on your own, without the help of the AOA, then you are as naive as your post portrays you to be. If, as you say, you would achieve a 1% pay-rise by relinquishing your AOA membership, you would undoubtedly find this to be your last. It may be, to quote you, that there are many people out there who resent my attitude, but you may wish to consider the possibility that it is your attitude which is out of step with the majority.
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Beacon Outbound
I am an A scaler and a staunch AOA supporter. I was therefore wondering what exactly have the A scalers got from the AOA that the B scalers didn't. I have had my pay frozen since 1994 and taken a huge pay cut recently for 3 years. If I recall you have had a few small pay rises. I don't want to get into an A scale ... B scale thing as it has all been said before but since the introduction of B scales my conditions get worse every year. When the company introduces C scale oneday and your B scale is frozen for ever I hope you will also be understanding as you expect us to be.
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" If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for everything "
I am an A scaler and a staunch AOA supporter. I was therefore wondering what exactly have the A scalers got from the AOA that the B scalers didn't. I have had my pay frozen since 1994 and taken a huge pay cut recently for 3 years. If I recall you have had a few small pay rises. I don't want to get into an A scale ... B scale thing as it has all been said before but since the introduction of B scales my conditions get worse every year. When the company introduces C scale oneday and your B scale is frozen for ever I hope you will also be understanding as you expect us to be.
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" If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for everything "
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Panza,
"When C scales are introduced..." I work for Veta and receive a salary less than B scales. I suppose it would be wrong to call that salary "C scales", because it was,in part, the brainchild of the AOA and it only concerns ASLscum . Let's call it "Freighter Pay" and we can all be happy... G&T's all round.
I'll be getting my coat then...
Liam G.
"When C scales are introduced..." I work for Veta and receive a salary less than B scales. I suppose it would be wrong to call that salary "C scales", because it was,in part, the brainchild of the AOA and it only concerns ASLscum . Let's call it "Freighter Pay" and we can all be happy... G&T's all round.
I'll be getting my coat then...
Liam G.
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Neutral Stability,
If your intention was to persuade me back "onside", then calling me unstable is unlikely to achieve your aim. If your intention was to persuade me that the A.O.A is attempting to look after the best interests of all it's members, then you failed again.
I am a member of the A.O.A, I have supported the association completely. But I do not believe that the association is above critisism as you appear to believe it is.
CoS 94 ,B-scales, ASL, 20% pay cuts for members ?? If the association keeps on being this successful at protecting it's members interests we will soon be paying the company for the priveledge of coming to work.
Lets agree to differ on this one Neutral. You think everything is going swimmingly well and I am obviously unhinged.
rgds
Beacon Outbound.
If your intention was to persuade me back "onside", then calling me unstable is unlikely to achieve your aim. If your intention was to persuade me that the A.O.A is attempting to look after the best interests of all it's members, then you failed again.
I am a member of the A.O.A, I have supported the association completely. But I do not believe that the association is above critisism as you appear to believe it is.
CoS 94 ,B-scales, ASL, 20% pay cuts for members ?? If the association keeps on being this successful at protecting it's members interests we will soon be paying the company for the priveledge of coming to work.
Lets agree to differ on this one Neutral. You think everything is going swimmingly well and I am obviously unhinged.
rgds
Beacon Outbound.
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Dear Beacon Outbound,
I fear that you have misinterpreted exactly what the recent decision by the company amounts to in the big picture.
The company has agreed to stop the abuse of our existing contracts on the matter of extendees. Your contract (it may be worth you getting it out and reading it) contains specific conditions for the extending of officers beyond normal retirement age. Whilst these conditions may be out-dated and insufficient, it is important that the company realises that it cannot simply ignore or change our contract unilaterally. This it now accepts. Step 1 accomplished.
The next step is to gain an acceptable and legally binding work practices agreement so that all officers can benefit from a stable lifestyle or be properly remunerated for the disruption.
Ensuring a proper and industry driven salary structure for all members comes next.
May I suggest that you take an active interest in the AOA (assuming that you aren't already giving up some of your time) before you attack your association. When was the last time that you went into the office?
The committee has my full support.
Compliant One
I fear that you have misinterpreted exactly what the recent decision by the company amounts to in the big picture.
The company has agreed to stop the abuse of our existing contracts on the matter of extendees. Your contract (it may be worth you getting it out and reading it) contains specific conditions for the extending of officers beyond normal retirement age. Whilst these conditions may be out-dated and insufficient, it is important that the company realises that it cannot simply ignore or change our contract unilaterally. This it now accepts. Step 1 accomplished.
The next step is to gain an acceptable and legally binding work practices agreement so that all officers can benefit from a stable lifestyle or be properly remunerated for the disruption.
Ensuring a proper and industry driven salary structure for all members comes next.
May I suggest that you take an active interest in the AOA (assuming that you aren't already giving up some of your time) before you attack your association. When was the last time that you went into the office?
The committee has my full support.
Compliant One
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Compliant One, I fear that you have misinterpreted the basic tenet of my grumble - that certain groups DO feel alienated and that no-one is listening. Not the committee nor members like yourself who patronize me and ask me to read my contract.
I have read my contract. It says lots of things, one of which is that I do not get a pension, I do not get a Provident Fund. I get 15.5% of salary in lieu-which is TAXED.
Perhaps you have the luxury of a provident fund which you can afford to retire on?
Perhaps you have the luxury of not having to work under the inequity of B-scales.
Perhaps you signed an agreement last year which cut your income by 20-30%. In doing so you sent a clear message to management that it is perfectly acceptable to continue to treat all staff with the same manipulative contempt. Even the B-scale staff who supported you. They won t hesitate to do the same thing to me next time around. Well done!
So, don t try to tell me the A.O.A is above criticism, it insults me and demeans yourself.
I have read my contract. It says lots of things, one of which is that I do not get a pension, I do not get a Provident Fund. I get 15.5% of salary in lieu-which is TAXED.
Perhaps you have the luxury of a provident fund which you can afford to retire on?
Perhaps you have the luxury of not having to work under the inequity of B-scales.
Perhaps you signed an agreement last year which cut your income by 20-30%. In doing so you sent a clear message to management that it is perfectly acceptable to continue to treat all staff with the same manipulative contempt. Even the B-scale staff who supported you. They won t hesitate to do the same thing to me next time around. Well done!
So, don t try to tell me the A.O.A is above criticism, it insults me and demeans yourself.
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Hey B.O.,
As has already been suggested, why don't you go in to the H.K.A.O.A. office and voice your displeasure to the committee.
You are correct in that "our organisation" is not above criticism. One point to note is that "our organisation" is the membership of the H.K.A.O.A and not just the committee.
I think you will serve your cause better by doing this.
As has already been suggested, why don't you go in to the H.K.A.O.A. office and voice your displeasure to the committee.
You are correct in that "our organisation" is not above criticism. One point to note is that "our organisation" is the membership of the H.K.A.O.A and not just the committee.
I think you will serve your cause better by doing this.
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Boy oh boy, where to begin. I would like to remind you oh beacon outbound, that no one put a gun to your head when you signed your contract with the company. You knew exactly what you were coming to, and what you were to be paid. Now suddenly you don't like it!! Well we came here a long time ago expecting our conditions to remain much the same or perhaps improve. Since 1994 the A scalers have gone backwards, whilst the B scale salary has improved. At least you haven't had things taken away from you that were contractually given to you, upon arriving here to take up employment.Whilst I agree that B scales are bad we need to get the contract issues sorted out first, then work on improving every ones lot in life.
To say that the A scalers signed a contract which has given the company the right to continue with contract abuse is so far off the mark as to be ridiculous. Remember we were all made to sign with the threat of dismissal hanging over our heads, whilst you guys got a pay rise I took a 15% hit.Do I take that out on the B scalers NO!, it isn't their fault, it's the companies . Why try to put a wedge between the two groups, we are all fighting for the same thing, A decent contract that is not revoked by the company every 5 minutes a liveable roster, and a decent wage. I have to say that you sound so bitter about the union that you may well do us all a favour and resign, see if you can do better on your own. Just remember that you accepted the terms and conditions of employment when you arrived here just as I did. I would like nothing better than to return to 1994 conditions of service, the ones that I accepted when I arrived, which have been eroded ever since.
To say that the A scalers signed a contract which has given the company the right to continue with contract abuse is so far off the mark as to be ridiculous. Remember we were all made to sign with the threat of dismissal hanging over our heads, whilst you guys got a pay rise I took a 15% hit.Do I take that out on the B scalers NO!, it isn't their fault, it's the companies . Why try to put a wedge between the two groups, we are all fighting for the same thing, A decent contract that is not revoked by the company every 5 minutes a liveable roster, and a decent wage. I have to say that you sound so bitter about the union that you may well do us all a favour and resign, see if you can do better on your own. Just remember that you accepted the terms and conditions of employment when you arrived here just as I did. I would like nothing better than to return to 1994 conditions of service, the ones that I accepted when I arrived, which have been eroded ever since.
