E.G.M.
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Beacon Outbound,
Wish I had the time to do work on the committee - I don't. However, I do support them and attend every meeting that I can as well as reading carefully everything that comes out. I also look at the website regularly to keep abreast of developments.
I certainly would comment to them (and have) on policies with which I disagree; I wouldn't slag them off on the internet without telling them first. I also volunteer to do a bit of legwork occasionally.
About the survey, mine didn't have a space for name, so how could anyone know which was your survey form?
Perhaps I'll see you at the reconvened EGM today?
Compo
Wish I had the time to do work on the committee - I don't. However, I do support them and attend every meeting that I can as well as reading carefully everything that comes out. I also look at the website regularly to keep abreast of developments.
I certainly would comment to them (and have) on policies with which I disagree; I wouldn't slag them off on the internet without telling them first. I also volunteer to do a bit of legwork occasionally.
About the survey, mine didn't have a space for name, so how could anyone know which was your survey form?
Perhaps I'll see you at the reconvened EGM today?
Compo
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healey & 18 weeler> Thankyou for your well reasoned replies to my post. I and no doubt many others have been impressed by the logical and rational manner in which you have stated your case and I am now in no doubt you are in the right.
p.s. 18 w, one thing I did learn about 'aviation' during my years as a pilot in the military and in the civil sector was how to spell the word - but I bow to your obviously superior knowledge on the subject itself. Cheers!
p.s. 18 w, one thing I did learn about 'aviation' during my years as a pilot in the military and in the civil sector was how to spell the word - but I bow to your obviously superior knowledge on the subject itself. Cheers!
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Dear Mr Cheung
I suggest your lack of understanding comes from the fact that you are quite obviously not in the aviation industry and the responses you have received are due to this being an aviation forum (inspite of your claiming to be a pilot in a previous life). Let me attempt to explain a few things for you.
When pilots join a large airline, they do so at the bottom of a seniority list in a junior position where the pay is very low. At current rates, it takes more than 10 years for a new employee to advance to rank of captain, bearing in mind this person would need many more years of experience and qualifications to even get the job in the first place. If you decide the company is treating you unfairly and decide to leave, you must then look for another job where you, once again, will start at the bottom with the concurrent low salaries. The only real option for those who have invested several years in building up what we call seniority, is to try and improve or (in the case of Cathay Pacific) resist continuing pressure on conditions and salary from our position within the company.
Secondly, the current state of the pilot roster in Cathay Pacific is chaos. Make no mistake that this is the overriding issue in the current dispute. It stems from a variety of factors including a shortage of staff and an uncompromising management. I can assure you most of the pilots are spending large amounts of time away from their homes with little idea of their impending duties. Planning one’s weekend hasn’t been an option for a long time (At least you get that option working 5 ½ days a week). All well run airlines world wide are able to offer stability in a roster and I disagree with your comment that it is the nature of the beast. It is a symptom of a poorly run airline.
I hope this makes a few things clearer for you. Just a few things to finish off, the current action by the pilot body is an attempt to obtain a workable and safe rostering system, it’s not a pay issue. And if we are on such a good deal, quit your job and join up you ex pilot you.
I suggest your lack of understanding comes from the fact that you are quite obviously not in the aviation industry and the responses you have received are due to this being an aviation forum (inspite of your claiming to be a pilot in a previous life). Let me attempt to explain a few things for you.
When pilots join a large airline, they do so at the bottom of a seniority list in a junior position where the pay is very low. At current rates, it takes more than 10 years for a new employee to advance to rank of captain, bearing in mind this person would need many more years of experience and qualifications to even get the job in the first place. If you decide the company is treating you unfairly and decide to leave, you must then look for another job where you, once again, will start at the bottom with the concurrent low salaries. The only real option for those who have invested several years in building up what we call seniority, is to try and improve or (in the case of Cathay Pacific) resist continuing pressure on conditions and salary from our position within the company.
Secondly, the current state of the pilot roster in Cathay Pacific is chaos. Make no mistake that this is the overriding issue in the current dispute. It stems from a variety of factors including a shortage of staff and an uncompromising management. I can assure you most of the pilots are spending large amounts of time away from their homes with little idea of their impending duties. Planning one’s weekend hasn’t been an option for a long time (At least you get that option working 5 ½ days a week). All well run airlines world wide are able to offer stability in a roster and I disagree with your comment that it is the nature of the beast. It is a symptom of a poorly run airline.
I hope this makes a few things clearer for you. Just a few things to finish off, the current action by the pilot body is an attempt to obtain a workable and safe rostering system, it’s not a pay issue. And if we are on such a good deal, quit your job and join up you ex pilot you.
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I am sure that management laughs every time they peruse these threads. We will never accomplish a thing if we don't work together! Fine words, which have been stated over and over again. But, in this thread alone, not to mention others, we constantly attack each other. We talk of "selfish people", "scabs", "scums", we knock A scalers, B scalers and freighter guy's. We state that we may be too stressed to fly with certain individuals etc, etc. So I feel it's time that I submit my 2 cents worth.
In hindsight, mistakes may have been made in the past but how long will we beat each other up over it? Also, to suggest that you will not operate with an individual because of his politics is extremely unprofessional. You don't have to like the person your flying with and you may not agree with his politics but if you can't fly with an individual who meets all the qualifications and regulations pertinent to his position, then the problem is yours! I'm sorry, but that kind of talk is upsetting. Now, let's turn the page and unite.
If we want to achieve the goal of a similar or singular pay scale then we must first fight to be treated the same. A single roster agreement for all is imperative if we want a chance at being paid the same.
I think the extension to age 60 is a good thing which is also becoming a global norm. I wonder if the majority of those that opposes it are young and without kids?
As for outsiders, we should try to establish an "Airline Specific Private Forum" to try and cut out the ignorant and most of all, the management.
Just a thought!
cpdude.
In hindsight, mistakes may have been made in the past but how long will we beat each other up over it? Also, to suggest that you will not operate with an individual because of his politics is extremely unprofessional. You don't have to like the person your flying with and you may not agree with his politics but if you can't fly with an individual who meets all the qualifications and regulations pertinent to his position, then the problem is yours! I'm sorry, but that kind of talk is upsetting. Now, let's turn the page and unite.
If we want to achieve the goal of a similar or singular pay scale then we must first fight to be treated the same. A single roster agreement for all is imperative if we want a chance at being paid the same.
I think the extension to age 60 is a good thing which is also becoming a global norm. I wonder if the majority of those that opposes it are young and without kids?
As for outsiders, we should try to establish an "Airline Specific Private Forum" to try and cut out the ignorant and most of all, the management.
Just a thought!
cpdude.
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Thanks cpdude, a well- reasoned and reasonable post. I heartily agree. The longer we spend slagging each other off on this very public forum the more we give our game away and lose the initiative. I see no advantage in letting management know our feelings. A lot of the sentiments expressed on this forum, whilst I respect the right to freedom of opinion, are an embarrasment and paint a very poor picture of ourselves as professionals.
Retirement at 60 was not an option when we joined but as a B-scaler I would welcome the negotiation of an option to extend to 60 and would be prepared to delay my time to command to achieve it. For pushbackred - no I am not close to 55, but I do have a deeply distressing view of retirement underfunded with a family to feed. Make no mistake, as we all know, it looked much more viable at the interview and shortly after I first joined but that was based on the widely held belief that B-scales were a temporary anomaly . The reality has taken time to sink in but it surely has.
Retirement at 60 was not an option when we joined but as a B-scaler I would welcome the negotiation of an option to extend to 60 and would be prepared to delay my time to command to achieve it. For pushbackred - no I am not close to 55, but I do have a deeply distressing view of retirement underfunded with a family to feed. Make no mistake, as we all know, it looked much more viable at the interview and shortly after I first joined but that was based on the widely held belief that B-scales were a temporary anomaly . The reality has taken time to sink in but it surely has.
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bbd> Now that's more like it - a relatively sensible reply - shame you had to try and be so patronising with it.
My aviation credentials aside - every time a post comes up which doesn't fit in with the perceptions of some of the more rabid correspondents here they're dismissed as a know nothing or a management stooge. It is possible that opinions other than your own are perfectly valid and have some merit.
InUSA made some valid points with helpful intent only to be rubbished as an ignorant 'yank'. The usefulness of an open forum is that it enables you to gain input from others and to allow your grievances to reach a wider audience (including the SCMP). The danger is that outsiders may reach the conclusion that CX pilots spend inordinate amounts of time on the net slagging off each other and the company, flaming outsiders and that CX recruits exclusively from the bottom left hand corner of the unstable/introvert quarter. At the present rate you'd probably be better off with a private forum as I cannot believe the views as expressed by the minority here reflect the opinions of the majority, yet it frequently gives a very negative impression of the pilot body as a whole.
Yes I am aware of the seniority issue but it seems things are so bad it's a wonder anyone stays. I got out of the industry for precisely the reasons you are complaining about, yes I know stay and fight from the inside but the fatal flaw with that argument especially in an outfit that isn't strongly unionised is that there'll always be plenty of self improvers who've mortgaged the house, slaved in McD's etc who'd cut their mothers throat for the job let alone yours. CX has nothing to fear about a lack of applicants - hence the B scale.
On that subject the slagging of A scalers by B scalers for their ills ! They let it happen, maybe, but no doubt as part of a realisation that competitive pressures made the change inevitable. What they didn't do was hold a gun to the heads of B scalers to force them to sign. If the A scale had been maintained most of those on the B scale wouldn't have been hired as CX would have been able to attract a far greater experience level to join.
Look if things really are that bad there has never been a better time than now to look elsewhere. Time to command in some UK charter operators is now running at 3 to 4 years,although doing a summer season with them would make you look at your rostering in a new light. Again a lot of it is a matter of perception - a friend of mine working as a captain for a UK charter, based in SE England (similar cost of living to HK) was talking about their latest pay rise, he's now on GBP55,000 p.a. and quote 'it's telephone numbers'! Well not by HK lights but he thinks it's reasonable even given that the company certainly takes its pound of flesh.
CX management obviously makes a judgement that the gain from flexible rostering outweighs the loss from pilot dissatisfaction and cost of training replacements etc. Unless sufficient trainers and captains force the issue or large numbers start leaving so it hurts the company will continue on its present course.
And from the co.'s point of view why shouldn't it? Hong Kong people expect to work long hours, the majority of people working 9 to 5 aren't knocking off at 5 and pulling long weekends. Complaints of a disrupted home/social life do not have the same resonance here as in the West.
So bbd you have my sympathy and good luck with your fight but I fear rosters will long be an issue here and elsewhere. However with your knowledge of well-run airlines you ought to be able to sort it out, you're obviously wasted as a pilot, you management genius you.
My aviation credentials aside - every time a post comes up which doesn't fit in with the perceptions of some of the more rabid correspondents here they're dismissed as a know nothing or a management stooge. It is possible that opinions other than your own are perfectly valid and have some merit.
InUSA made some valid points with helpful intent only to be rubbished as an ignorant 'yank'. The usefulness of an open forum is that it enables you to gain input from others and to allow your grievances to reach a wider audience (including the SCMP). The danger is that outsiders may reach the conclusion that CX pilots spend inordinate amounts of time on the net slagging off each other and the company, flaming outsiders and that CX recruits exclusively from the bottom left hand corner of the unstable/introvert quarter. At the present rate you'd probably be better off with a private forum as I cannot believe the views as expressed by the minority here reflect the opinions of the majority, yet it frequently gives a very negative impression of the pilot body as a whole.
Yes I am aware of the seniority issue but it seems things are so bad it's a wonder anyone stays. I got out of the industry for precisely the reasons you are complaining about, yes I know stay and fight from the inside but the fatal flaw with that argument especially in an outfit that isn't strongly unionised is that there'll always be plenty of self improvers who've mortgaged the house, slaved in McD's etc who'd cut their mothers throat for the job let alone yours. CX has nothing to fear about a lack of applicants - hence the B scale.
On that subject the slagging of A scalers by B scalers for their ills ! They let it happen, maybe, but no doubt as part of a realisation that competitive pressures made the change inevitable. What they didn't do was hold a gun to the heads of B scalers to force them to sign. If the A scale had been maintained most of those on the B scale wouldn't have been hired as CX would have been able to attract a far greater experience level to join.
Look if things really are that bad there has never been a better time than now to look elsewhere. Time to command in some UK charter operators is now running at 3 to 4 years,although doing a summer season with them would make you look at your rostering in a new light. Again a lot of it is a matter of perception - a friend of mine working as a captain for a UK charter, based in SE England (similar cost of living to HK) was talking about their latest pay rise, he's now on GBP55,000 p.a. and quote 'it's telephone numbers'! Well not by HK lights but he thinks it's reasonable even given that the company certainly takes its pound of flesh.
CX management obviously makes a judgement that the gain from flexible rostering outweighs the loss from pilot dissatisfaction and cost of training replacements etc. Unless sufficient trainers and captains force the issue or large numbers start leaving so it hurts the company will continue on its present course.
And from the co.'s point of view why shouldn't it? Hong Kong people expect to work long hours, the majority of people working 9 to 5 aren't knocking off at 5 and pulling long weekends. Complaints of a disrupted home/social life do not have the same resonance here as in the West.
So bbd you have my sympathy and good luck with your fight but I fear rosters will long be an issue here and elsewhere. However with your knowledge of well-run airlines you ought to be able to sort it out, you're obviously wasted as a pilot, you management genius you.
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I'm fed up with this "pubic" forum. We need our own so we don't have to read rubbish from people that don't know what they are talking about in relation to our situation!
We beat our heads against a wall trying to educate the outsiders and they still come back with "I know this chap in a UK charter outfit...." you have it real good. No point in going on as you won't listen anyway.
Idiots.
We beat our heads against a wall trying to educate the outsiders and they still come back with "I know this chap in a UK charter outfit...." you have it real good. No point in going on as you won't listen anyway.
Idiots.
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Here I go again with a question.
The company suggesting that we will not get our 13th month bonus is a way to drive a wedge between the pilots and FA's: Anyone agree?
If this is true it is truly a dirty tactic which I hope will only draw the two groups closer and support one another.
Sweet FA.............out
The company suggesting that we will not get our 13th month bonus is a way to drive a wedge between the pilots and FA's: Anyone agree?
If this is true it is truly a dirty tactic which I hope will only draw the two groups closer and support one another.
Sweet FA.............out
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Thrust I have a question? I know that to have a private forum all one need to do to post is submit your name and employee number or whatever designation to denote employment with the company of the private forum. Do you not think management doesn't knows this? They can still sign on to your "private forum" and read your postings? And they will be able to post and insight even more dissention because then those who believe they are safe from the prying eye will eat it up like the bottom feeders some have proven to be with their postings on this BB.
A tried and true rule in aviation is that any airplane can stall at any altitude and speed. There is an equally true rule in advertising and marketing.
"Word of mouth is the best form of advertising." Also in that method of advertising is this rule: A customer dissatisfied with a product or service or treatment by employees will tell no less than 11 people. A content customer will not tell more than 5 people of their experience. So you take those rule to heart when you choose to slam and write in a patronizing tone to those cutomers who read this forum and offer their professional advice from the real world of business. See we the customers can choose to walk too, we can walk right on over to that other counter and buy a ticket and get to the same location that a ticket with CX would get us to. And you are certain to respond with well then go right ahead and do that. Yep, I am convinced and I hope Marco Polo, and Tai Cheung and the many others who have followed your situation and offered suggestion will unite and walk on over and take those new flights over the top of the world and get to and from the USA faster than CX can do it.
And the efforts that Contenintal is making to go from worst to first are really making it a pleasure to fly with them, and their world alliance partners.
Cheers and Happy Holidays.
ALL PAYING PASSENGERS of CX UNITE LETS TAKE A WALK TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE TERMINAL.. Perhaps we can see how well they appreciate our money and cutomer's suggestions. I know Contenintal is listening to their customers.
[This message has been edited by InUSAandObserving (edited 11 December 2000).]
A tried and true rule in aviation is that any airplane can stall at any altitude and speed. There is an equally true rule in advertising and marketing.
"Word of mouth is the best form of advertising." Also in that method of advertising is this rule: A customer dissatisfied with a product or service or treatment by employees will tell no less than 11 people. A content customer will not tell more than 5 people of their experience. So you take those rule to heart when you choose to slam and write in a patronizing tone to those cutomers who read this forum and offer their professional advice from the real world of business. See we the customers can choose to walk too, we can walk right on over to that other counter and buy a ticket and get to the same location that a ticket with CX would get us to. And you are certain to respond with well then go right ahead and do that. Yep, I am convinced and I hope Marco Polo, and Tai Cheung and the many others who have followed your situation and offered suggestion will unite and walk on over and take those new flights over the top of the world and get to and from the USA faster than CX can do it.
And the efforts that Contenintal is making to go from worst to first are really making it a pleasure to fly with them, and their world alliance partners.
Cheers and Happy Holidays.
ALL PAYING PASSENGERS of CX UNITE LETS TAKE A WALK TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE TERMINAL.. Perhaps we can see how well they appreciate our money and cutomer's suggestions. I know Contenintal is listening to their customers.
[This message has been edited by InUSAandObserving (edited 11 December 2000).]
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I agree with you, thrust. First of all, I am not a pilot. I am just a little citizen of HKG. Before I read CX pilots' opinions here, I think CX pilots are trying to threaten the company by using their "sick off." But now, I am on pilot's side because now I know who is right and who is evil, and I don't want to see CX kills all its pax because of the messy roster. Also, I think pilots should keep posting message here because if you post message in AOA's forum, no public (e.g. me) can be seen. Then pilots won't get the support of the majority of HKG people. I know my english writing skill is weak, but hope you understand what I am trying to express.
[This message has been edited by Malingerer (edited 12 December 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Malingerer (edited 12 December 2000).]
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Thanks for the comments Mal...
I hope you are still on the pilots side if you read the SCMP article on page 3 today. There is a big headline that states "Strike-threat Cathay pilots accused of greed" If you read the article you will see a totally company SPIN on events. It is an article full of lies, diversions and deception. Don't believe a word of it. Pay in excess of 3.3 million for for senior pilots with over 13 years experience is rubbish. The problem is NOT about MONEY it is about our ROSTERING PRACTICES.
The year after next year will be about money!
I hope you are still on the pilots side if you read the SCMP article on page 3 today. There is a big headline that states "Strike-threat Cathay pilots accused of greed" If you read the article you will see a totally company SPIN on events. It is an article full of lies, diversions and deception. Don't believe a word of it. Pay in excess of 3.3 million for for senior pilots with over 13 years experience is rubbish. The problem is NOT about MONEY it is about our ROSTERING PRACTICES.
The year after next year will be about money!
