Pilot extensions
Guest
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How can anyone defend these people? We have CC at the moment. Most of us turn down great offers from crew control to comply with it (I actually voted NO to CC, but now that it is here, I do comply with it). Since most of us don't work on days off, how can it be ok to extend beyond 55? And then on B-scale!!!!
I think we all agree that B-scale is below industry standard and I think that we all agree that it is in everyone's best interest to raise it, preferably to A-scale level. How can we possibly convince the company that this is the case, if these silly old farts with millions of pounds stacked away in the bank are willing to take a paycut which is even more significant than last year, just to continue being Mr. -400 captain. I am sorry, but these guys are selfish and a disgrace. If there was no CC and they extended on A+ salary then I might accept it, since the company is short of C&Ts. But at the moment there is no excuse and if I once again hear "I can't afford to retire", I don't think I will be able to control my stomach.
I think we all agree that B-scale is below industry standard and I think that we all agree that it is in everyone's best interest to raise it, preferably to A-scale level. How can we possibly convince the company that this is the case, if these silly old farts with millions of pounds stacked away in the bank are willing to take a paycut which is even more significant than last year, just to continue being Mr. -400 captain. I am sorry, but these guys are selfish and a disgrace. If there was no CC and they extended on A+ salary then I might accept it, since the company is short of C&Ts. But at the moment there is no excuse and if I once again hear "I can't afford to retire", I don't think I will be able to control my stomach.
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You lot do eat your young, as you have now shown! The price of Snr. Captain has now been 'benchmarked' hasn't it? Two years to the next negotiations and the die has been cast! The message has been sent loud and clear to Mr. Turnbull that you are willing to accept B scale wages without significant backlash. I have been gone from CX for a while now, (Life after CX is great btw!) but would like to offer some food for thought. I could vilify the AOA for not coming out strongly against this, but there have now been so many things they should have anticipated or at least reacted to. I could vilify the chaps that have taken your jobs on B scale in the twilight of their careers, but that is your job to make them uncomfortable at every opportunity! You ladies and gentlemen are the AOA, make your wishes known. Stop sitting idly by while your careers are being damaged day by day, inch by inch. Get involved and make your voices heard. The recent UAL contract has benchmarked the 744 capt job in the USA. I just want to make sure that you understand how much salary that is in total: the $340/hr translates to about $340,000 usd's per year, Keep in mind that is including credit hours, They generally get 8 to 10 credit hours per month for DT etc. They rarely fly more than 65 to 75 hrs seat time per mo. in the US. PLUS expenses_ about $400 usd/month, PLUS retirement of 11% of every dollar earned in ADDITION to your salary, usually resulting in a payment of 1 to 3 million usd's on retirement, PLUS a monthly payment on retirement of 30 to 60% of your final salary for the rest of your life. PLUS comprehensive Medical/Dental/Life insurance/Loss of Licence/Disability/, PLUS free staff travel after 5 or 10 years of service. To achieve this level of compensation in a cash only environment like CX's compensation would equate to about 400,000 usd's per year in total. Almost twice the CX pay for a captain on a base.
Do not take a 'damage control' stance with CX. You must re-establish the 'benchmark' at the appropriate level. For those you with American citizenship or a grean card, the handwritting is on the wall. Good luck to all of you, it sure looks like you will need it.
[This message has been edited by Fatbastard (edited 15 September 2000).]
Do not take a 'damage control' stance with CX. You must re-establish the 'benchmark' at the appropriate level. For those you with American citizenship or a grean card, the handwritting is on the wall. Good luck to all of you, it sure looks like you will need it.
[This message has been edited by Fatbastard (edited 15 September 2000).]
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Time has come to tighten the CC scope. Unfortunately, the present contract has not been broken since these individuals actually retired and have signed on to a new contract.
They appear not to be in contravention of the CC provisions. They are sailing very close to the wind and have definitely crossed the line with regards to the moral standing of their actions.
I quite agree with Checkmate etc that they are sad to have nothing better to do after their retirement. THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE ACCEPTED B-SCALES.
These are the same senior guys who have failed to support their colleagues in the past. Delightful chaps, I am sure, but guys - you are so nieve. Here's why:
1. The company doesn't NEED you and all your "skills and experience". They are building your egos up to make you feel important. "You are so important since you're C&T and we value your input to the development to our younger pilots career progression." For this read "we think that you are rather pompous and believe that the company will not survive without your incredible skills and knowledge. This means that you will work for almost nothing." Dah!!
2. We would love to pay you A scale but this would put you outside of the companies policy for the past 7 years of only employing on B scales. You wouldn't want special conditions now, would you?
3. Now don't worry about the base thing, old chap. We'll extend you on a base and we'll just delay any of those junior guys beneath you from taking one up. (We'll give you a nice roster too.) You're senior to them so it's your right to have the base.
4. By the way, did I tell you that the company will drop you like a ton of hot bricks as soon as we don't need you again. Don't worry - your retirement staff travel will still be the worst of any large airline in the world. PRI 28 and no FOC - try telling a BA captain that and he will laugh at you.
These guys have been an easy touch for the company. It includes one guy who said after B-scales etc that "it's still a lot of money to be paid for a job I love. I think that it's still great."
Sad boys who forgot that they should have had a life outside of Cathay and flying.
If you are members of the HKAOA then you ALL ought to be ashamed.
[This message has been edited by Compliant One (edited 16 September 2000).]
They appear not to be in contravention of the CC provisions. They are sailing very close to the wind and have definitely crossed the line with regards to the moral standing of their actions.
I quite agree with Checkmate etc that they are sad to have nothing better to do after their retirement. THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE ACCEPTED B-SCALES.
These are the same senior guys who have failed to support their colleagues in the past. Delightful chaps, I am sure, but guys - you are so nieve. Here's why:
1. The company doesn't NEED you and all your "skills and experience". They are building your egos up to make you feel important. "You are so important since you're C&T and we value your input to the development to our younger pilots career progression." For this read "we think that you are rather pompous and believe that the company will not survive without your incredible skills and knowledge. This means that you will work for almost nothing." Dah!!
2. We would love to pay you A scale but this would put you outside of the companies policy for the past 7 years of only employing on B scales. You wouldn't want special conditions now, would you?
3. Now don't worry about the base thing, old chap. We'll extend you on a base and we'll just delay any of those junior guys beneath you from taking one up. (We'll give you a nice roster too.) You're senior to them so it's your right to have the base.
4. By the way, did I tell you that the company will drop you like a ton of hot bricks as soon as we don't need you again. Don't worry - your retirement staff travel will still be the worst of any large airline in the world. PRI 28 and no FOC - try telling a BA captain that and he will laugh at you.
These guys have been an easy touch for the company. It includes one guy who said after B-scales etc that "it's still a lot of money to be paid for a job I love. I think that it's still great."
Sad boys who forgot that they should have had a life outside of Cathay and flying.
If you are members of the HKAOA then you ALL ought to be ashamed.
[This message has been edited by Compliant One (edited 16 September 2000).]
Guest
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In my experience in the states, bypass pay was a good deal. Max F/O seniority and Captain's pay. Anymore, most of us are in it for the money, not the glory. Four years to the left seat the norm? Try twenty or 5 to the right seat. Present upward mobility is not the norm. Sort of like an 8 year bull market.
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Every person in the ranks waiting for their command is a threat to men in their midlife crisis. They see every younger person as a threat to what they are and the illusion of what they were. They have friends and Mums and Dads dying so it scares the hell out of them that they are now looking at death's door too and they feel that hanging on to what represents their youth and keeps their ego's vital will keep death away even longer. One day everyone faces this aspect of life, but for men who have been in such ego positions as Cathay A-scalers have been it is a long way down, and because it would never happen to them...they were immortal and indespensible they didn't plan or prepare for the inevitable. It is all fear of what has happened to them biologically.
Guest
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Hey AtRisk, that's gutsy. But you miss a critical point in the role of management. As you rightly point out, the systemic theme in all of this is a fear based organizational culture. Hence those in the role of management (middle or otherwise) will gravitate to those positions in an attempt to distance themselves from 'the inevitable', as you put it. But the 'leader' and the 'led' are two components of an inclusive system.
There are many good examples in organizational literature where outgoing corporate leaders successfully transfer their own fears onto the 'general' population. When they are replaced by 'tyrant' leaders, that collective fear is 'successfully' projected, along with their own fears and insecurities, onto those they lead, to everyone's detriment. And it is reflective of an unhealthy organizational culture that is often characterized by morale problems and toxic work environments.
I take issue with your notion of A-scalers as the source of the problem though. The fears that you mention are a very real part of organizational dynamics, however you misidentify the source. The bottle neck is still at the top of a bottle.
I suggest the following book if you're interested in organizational dynamics: "Work Abuse : How to Recognize and Survive It, by Chauncey Hare, Judith Wyatt; available at Amazon.
-cheers.
[This message has been edited by k_d_s (edited 17 September 2000).]
There are many good examples in organizational literature where outgoing corporate leaders successfully transfer their own fears onto the 'general' population. When they are replaced by 'tyrant' leaders, that collective fear is 'successfully' projected, along with their own fears and insecurities, onto those they lead, to everyone's detriment. And it is reflective of an unhealthy organizational culture that is often characterized by morale problems and toxic work environments.
I take issue with your notion of A-scalers as the source of the problem though. The fears that you mention are a very real part of organizational dynamics, however you misidentify the source. The bottle neck is still at the top of a bottle.
I suggest the following book if you're interested in organizational dynamics: "Work Abuse : How to Recognize and Survive It, by Chauncey Hare, Judith Wyatt; available at Amazon.
-cheers.
[This message has been edited by k_d_s (edited 17 September 2000).]
Guest
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Let me guess. All of the people who defend these SCABS are "older in theie age". Have some respect for yourself and act like the MANY decent older Captains who look forward to leaving.
Stay on base!! SCAB. They ARE taking someones base who has been waiting.
Buy the way only the No.1 S/O gets bypass pay. Different for F/O's.
Nut you fools who agree with these guys miss the big picture.
IT SLOWS UP UGRADES.
3 F/O UPGRADES SLOWED DOWN.
3 S/O UPGRADES SLOWED DOWN
3 NEW GUYS SLOWED DOWN.
Hang your heads in shame scabs because everyone knows who you are. Pathetic lonely old men. There is a life outside CX.
If your hanging around for your ego and repect, you have lost it all. Even flight attendants know who you are and dissaprove.
SHAME SHAME SHAME
Lousy scabs.......
Stay on base!! SCAB. They ARE taking someones base who has been waiting.
Buy the way only the No.1 S/O gets bypass pay. Different for F/O's.
Nut you fools who agree with these guys miss the big picture.
IT SLOWS UP UGRADES.
3 F/O UPGRADES SLOWED DOWN.
3 S/O UPGRADES SLOWED DOWN
3 NEW GUYS SLOWED DOWN.
Hang your heads in shame scabs because everyone knows who you are. Pathetic lonely old men. There is a life outside CX.
If your hanging around for your ego and repect, you have lost it all. Even flight attendants know who you are and dissaprove.
SHAME SHAME SHAME
Lousy scabs.......
Guest
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Forget the "slowed down" bit, if there is a down turn before the upgrades happen they won't take place and a long wait (for the next upturn) will ensue. Wouldn't want to be the top three F/Os and S/Os then !
Hey, we all know how quickly things can turn around - don't we !!!
Hey, we all know how quickly things can turn around - don't we !!!
Guest
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A couple of comments..it's hard for the AOA to project the 'line' about 'inadequate' retirement benefits when all i read on this thread are comments about 'loaded' old farts at 55 having so much money they should fold up and leave. I feel that extensions are not right..they DO prevent command upgrades and are a shining example of the company being caught out (yet again) with staffing levels. In addition CX can easily skirt the 60 ret. age issue by indefinately offering 'B' scale extensions to as many senior guys as they need to keep the ball rolling. If 60 is what it must be then make it 60 under a properly negotiated deal with ALL pilots having a say. ..not this "we'll fly for free" crap. Keep in mind that the final 5 years of other airlines' crew means they are at the absolute peak of their income and retirement multiples. 60 IS the international age of retirement..make it so.. but let CX honour(i use that term VERY loosely!) the conditons of service as regards salary and benefits. Yeah ..i know..pigs will fly!
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There is a two fold problem that is multiplied by a factor of <2>.
The men who are coming of age for their retirement are from a corporate era of "the company will take care of you!" Today's corportate cultures worldwide are such that the only one you can depend on is yourself. Their are scores of books about this topic available at Amazon.com.
They watched the elder men of days gone by leave with honour and had a tradition of passing the tourch to the next generation with the satisfaction that they left with what they were told they would have upon leaving. They are being cheated of what they expected.
As for the compounded problem they are watching the younger men picking up the women as they used to, but aren't anymore, they are loosing their hair down the drain hole every morning, it is more difficult to keep up the exercises, their hearts are causing them problems, the have to wear glasses too. They want to feel young and alive again. Their job is the major souce of connection to their youth. Plus, all their beliefes about what the world was about has collapsed as the corporate cultures have changed so drastically. They thought they would be seeing themselves walking out just as those before them did, but not today. They didn't plan for their retirement because they were immoratal, forever young, and the company was going to take care of them. They want to be where the younger men are; to feel alive, and the younger men want to be where the older men are to feel the prestige and the money factors. It just isn't fair but it is biology of the human race.
To help you undestand I suggest reading Jungian theories of self realisation, Ken
Wilber's models of consciousness and self, Eric Fromm's Life Cycles and most works by Maslove.
I agree that there is a tremendous amount of corporate abuse about in Cathay, and perhaps the book "Work Abuse" should be presented for required reading to all employees. However, abuse cannot exist without a person who is willing to play the roles of victim.
The men who are coming of age for their retirement are from a corporate era of "the company will take care of you!" Today's corportate cultures worldwide are such that the only one you can depend on is yourself. Their are scores of books about this topic available at Amazon.com.
They watched the elder men of days gone by leave with honour and had a tradition of passing the tourch to the next generation with the satisfaction that they left with what they were told they would have upon leaving. They are being cheated of what they expected.
As for the compounded problem they are watching the younger men picking up the women as they used to, but aren't anymore, they are loosing their hair down the drain hole every morning, it is more difficult to keep up the exercises, their hearts are causing them problems, the have to wear glasses too. They want to feel young and alive again. Their job is the major souce of connection to their youth. Plus, all their beliefes about what the world was about has collapsed as the corporate cultures have changed so drastically. They thought they would be seeing themselves walking out just as those before them did, but not today. They didn't plan for their retirement because they were immoratal, forever young, and the company was going to take care of them. They want to be where the younger men are; to feel alive, and the younger men want to be where the older men are to feel the prestige and the money factors. It just isn't fair but it is biology of the human race.
To help you undestand I suggest reading Jungian theories of self realisation, Ken
Wilber's models of consciousness and self, Eric Fromm's Life Cycles and most works by Maslove.
I agree that there is a tremendous amount of corporate abuse about in Cathay, and perhaps the book "Work Abuse" should be presented for required reading to all employees. However, abuse cannot exist without a person who is willing to play the roles of victim.
Guest
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Good post AtRisk. Except that self-realization is more appropriately attibuted to Maslow and his hierarchy of needs. Jung's interest was focused on individuation and reconciling opposites. Not quite the same thing, although both theorists have valid applications in organizational dynamics. Eric Fromm is interesting as is Wilbur's more contemporary and inclusive focus on consciousness.
If you're interested in a Jungian approach to organizational dynamics you might want to check out Arthur Coleman's "Up from Scapegoating", also available at Amazon. He's a Jungian analyst who brings Jung's work to an organizational setting.
In that sense, who will you scapegoat when the present scapegoats fall out of vogue? Or are you afraid to focus accountability on management, senior executives and/or the CEO because they feel distant and more powerful?
When the company offered VSS last year, stating that they were over staffed, they had every intention of extending the retirement age on B-scales as part of their organizational shenanigans. That was part of their plan even then! Hoodwinked again. Many on this thread still dont know where the 'enemy' lives. Big picture? Yeah, right.
[This message has been edited by k_d_s (edited 18 September 2000).]
If you're interested in a Jungian approach to organizational dynamics you might want to check out Arthur Coleman's "Up from Scapegoating", also available at Amazon. He's a Jungian analyst who brings Jung's work to an organizational setting.
In that sense, who will you scapegoat when the present scapegoats fall out of vogue? Or are you afraid to focus accountability on management, senior executives and/or the CEO because they feel distant and more powerful?
When the company offered VSS last year, stating that they were over staffed, they had every intention of extending the retirement age on B-scales as part of their organizational shenanigans. That was part of their plan even then! Hoodwinked again. Many on this thread still dont know where the 'enemy' lives. Big picture? Yeah, right.
[This message has been edited by k_d_s (edited 18 September 2000).]
Guest
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On a previous thread I tried to convince the "young whingers" that they should press the AOA to negotiate a good retirement deal at 60. Instead it would appear that the yw's prefer to spout rubbish on this site about old farts not having a life outside CX etc etc. Believe the fact that 60 is THE NORMAL retirement age in almost every other airline in the world. CX is out of step and will eventually do what it needs to get into step. By refusing to accept the idea of retirement at 60 and pushing for a deal you leave CX free to do whatever it wishes. I warned you! Now you start whinging about a few captains being extended. You are pathetic! Believe me there is more to come, so get real and convince the AOA to get us ALL a good deal on this issue.
Guest
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Amused and Mole; Here is a legitimate question... but first is the deal you, all other officers and I agreed and understood at the beginning of our tenure that our tenure was to end at age 55 and it was understood and accepted by each of us and all of our peers on the job. So what is causing the push from the people who are now at the retirment age or within its sights pushing for extensions or to have the age raised? Since the company has already given you several knee jerks in the last few years to make you see that you are not getting what you were told you would to begin with, so why are you even interested in extending the abuse to yourself in the means of subjection to further loss of your beliefes and your personal moral? It appears that most of the senior officers choose to stand apart and fight for their own personal gains and their need to feel needed in a rapidly changing environment. Would it not be a better position to leave with knowing you used the time you agreed to and let your last years be in a battle to make life better for those who follow you? There is so much division and derision here between the young and the old on the flight deck. The aspect of being the leaders seems to have fallen away from the senior captains and the younger officers are trying to rally together for unity to bring in a bit more of the traditions that you entered the company with, and the main focus is that the company should be accountable and responsible to its employees and the contracts which are accepted by the employees with beliefes and faith that the company will adhere to their side of the contract. Each time they gain a level of confidence that the employees are willing to give an inch this time; next time they will give a mile. If you have to go..go out in a flame of glory not a whimpering coddger that settled for less than you are truly worth. When you sell yourselves short and are willing to work for less and bend over for the weinner you devalue every other person within the ranks doing the same job from the F/O you just flew with to the person just walking in the door. Why not work to make sure that everyone has the value you were originally (had) promised as opposed to reducing the value of the job you have done for 20+ years and have done it well?
[This message has been edited by AtRisk (edited 18 September 2000).]
[This message has been edited by AtRisk (edited 18 September 2000).]
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And as an aside: Is it because we are well read and educated in the various philosophies and theories of the human existence and biology that makes us "space cadets?" Does being educated and well read mean we should be worth less than those who are old and set in their ways and are not willing to expand their visions or their potential? According to the biology of man, and by the psychology of man the men facing retirement are going through stages of life that scare the hell out of them. Denying its existence does not equate to coping with it or dealing effectively with it. To deny this biological event is to deny that you came through the birth canal <55> years ago. I bet your Mummy would argue that you did, she remembers that day you don't.
"Proud to be a Space Cadet" Besides, by the time I am 55 I just might be flying these Bozo Busses out into the twighlight zone and back.
[This message has been edited by AtRisk (edited 18 September 2000).]
[This message has been edited by AtRisk (edited 18 September 2000).]
[This message has been edited by AtRisk (edited 24 September 2000).]
"Proud to be a Space Cadet" Besides, by the time I am 55 I just might be flying these Bozo Busses out into the twighlight zone and back.
[This message has been edited by AtRisk (edited 18 September 2000).]
[This message has been edited by AtRisk (edited 18 September 2000).]
[This message has been edited by AtRisk (edited 24 September 2000).]
Guest
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At the risk of asking something I should know...
Doesn`t the B scale COS say thoust shall retire at age 55? And if so, doesn`t that mean that these guys extending are doing so on a new contract?
Also, when one gets bypass pay, aren`t you stuck on that (i.e. Yr1) till commencing your course. So lets say an S/O gets bypass pay starting today. But doesn`t start his/her course till Jan 01. Come profit share time, the said camper is now a J F/O, and renumerated accordingly, lets say two months salary for arguments sake. $80 k. If said camper had actually started their course at day 1, and jumped through all the hoops, kissed the right butts etc, they would be a F/O and would get an EXTRA $40k at p/share time.
Thats enough to pay for three and a half years parking at CX city!
Doesn`t the B scale COS say thoust shall retire at age 55? And if so, doesn`t that mean that these guys extending are doing so on a new contract?
Also, when one gets bypass pay, aren`t you stuck on that (i.e. Yr1) till commencing your course. So lets say an S/O gets bypass pay starting today. But doesn`t start his/her course till Jan 01. Come profit share time, the said camper is now a J F/O, and renumerated accordingly, lets say two months salary for arguments sake. $80 k. If said camper had actually started their course at day 1, and jumped through all the hoops, kissed the right butts etc, they would be a F/O and would get an EXTRA $40k at p/share time.
Thats enough to pay for three and a half years parking at CX city!