Ryanair landings
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Ryanair landings
Hello all. please go easy on me. first post and all that.
I fly about 4 round trips/year, about half of these on Ryanair. I am not a pilot and do not claim to have any technical knowledge of flying.
Why are Ryanair landings so bl**dy hard, often accompanied by quite pronounced sideways lurches on touchdown (my son bruised the side of his abdomen through it striking the armrest on our last flight)?
I have done a search on here and couldn't find anything. There is some stuff on the web about pilots rushing and being under time pressures. Is this really the reason?
Regards
Dan
I fly about 4 round trips/year, about half of these on Ryanair. I am not a pilot and do not claim to have any technical knowledge of flying.
Why are Ryanair landings so bl**dy hard, often accompanied by quite pronounced sideways lurches on touchdown (my son bruised the side of his abdomen through it striking the armrest on our last flight)?
I have done a search on here and couldn't find anything. There is some stuff on the web about pilots rushing and being under time pressures. Is this really the reason?
Regards
Dan
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Dan it has nothing to do with time pressures. Landing an aircraft takes a considerable amount of skill - in tough weather conditions, even more so. When the runway is very wet, a landing that you can feel is desirable in order to ensure a good purchase on the ground, so as to avoid aquaplaning. It may be a short runway, in which case floating above it for a while is clearly undesirable. Furthermore, there are schools of thought that say all landings should be positive rather than smooth. Your position in the aircraft will also influence how you perceive the hardness of the landing.
One thing that is possible (although this goes for any airline) is that it was landined by a new pilot - either to commercial aviation or to the type of aircraft. It's perhaps more likely at Ryanair than another carrier, given their growth and their recruiting policies.
One thing that is possible (although this goes for any airline) is that it was landined by a new pilot - either to commercial aviation or to the type of aircraft. It's perhaps more likely at Ryanair than another carrier, given their growth and their recruiting policies.
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my son bruised the side of his abdomen through it striking the armrest on our last flight
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Here's a link to previous discussions on this topic
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=206365
..........which gives you yet another link - and I'm moving this to that forum.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=206365
..........which gives you yet another link - and I'm moving this to that forum.
Fly Conventional Gear
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Could someone answer me this:
In a plane like the modern PA28s (with tapered wings that suffer a lot from ground effect) it is really possible to kiss the ground with the only clue to the fact that one has touched down being the sound of the wheels...
However, whenever I'm flying as a passenger in an airliner the landings always seem much more of an 'event'. I've always assumed that it is impossible to 'grease' a heavy jet on in the same way as a light aircraft because there is so much travel in the undercarriage suspension...which means no matter how lightly one touches down initially one can't help but feel the jolt as the plane 'sits down' fully on its gear and the suspension compresses under the plane's weight.
Is that true? Or have I been unlucky to never experience a 'greaser' as a passenger?
In a plane like the modern PA28s (with tapered wings that suffer a lot from ground effect) it is really possible to kiss the ground with the only clue to the fact that one has touched down being the sound of the wheels...
However, whenever I'm flying as a passenger in an airliner the landings always seem much more of an 'event'. I've always assumed that it is impossible to 'grease' a heavy jet on in the same way as a light aircraft because there is so much travel in the undercarriage suspension...which means no matter how lightly one touches down initially one can't help but feel the jolt as the plane 'sits down' fully on its gear and the suspension compresses under the plane's weight.
Is that true? Or have I been unlucky to never experience a 'greaser' as a passenger?
Beacon Outbound
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A few quotes from the B737NG FCTM (Flight Crew Training Manual):
Landing Flare Profile
Avoid rapid control column movements during the flare. If the flare is too abrupt and thrust is excessive near touchdown, the airplane tends to float in ground effect. Do not allow the airplane to float; fly the airplane onto the runway. Do not extend the flare by increasing pitch attitude in an attempt to achieve a perfectly smooth touchdown. Do not attempt to hold the nose wheels off the runway.
Avoid rapid control column movements during the flare. If the flare is too abrupt and thrust is excessive near touchdown, the airplane tends to float in ground effect. Do not allow the airplane to float; fly the airplane onto the runway. Do not extend the flare by increasing pitch attitude in an attempt to achieve a perfectly smooth touchdown. Do not attempt to hold the nose wheels off the runway.
Pitch and Roll Limit Conditions
The Ground Contact Angles - Normal Landing figure illustrates body roll angle/pitch angles at which the airplane structure contacts the runway. Prolonged flare increases the body pitch attitude 2° to 3°. When prolonged flare is coupled with a misjudged height above the runway aft body contact is possible.
Fly the airplane onto the runway at the desired touchdown point and at the desired airspeed. Do not hold it off and risk the possibility of a tailstrike.
Note: A smooth touchdown is not the criterion for a safe landing.
The Ground Contact Angles - Normal Landing figure illustrates body roll angle/pitch angles at which the airplane structure contacts the runway. Prolonged flare increases the body pitch attitude 2° to 3°. When prolonged flare is coupled with a misjudged height above the runway aft body contact is possible.
Fly the airplane onto the runway at the desired touchdown point and at the desired airspeed. Do not hold it off and risk the possibility of a tailstrike.
Note: A smooth touchdown is not the criterion for a safe landing.
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the airplane tends to float in ground effect
In answer to the prevous poster, I have experienced quite a few greasers as pax (737/A320/F70), so it is possible, but whether they were intentional or not is an entirely different matter!
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The problem is you don't usually remember the greasers anywhere near as much as the hard landings.
Besides- how hard the landing is can have little to do with the airfield- flying into Samos (LGSM) I was amazed at how smoothly the plane touched down- especially compared to the return to Manchester where it felt like we bounced!
Besides- how hard the landing is can have little to do with the airfield- flying into Samos (LGSM) I was amazed at how smoothly the plane touched down- especially compared to the return to Manchester where it felt like we bounced!
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It has nothing to do with their skill, as has already been established.
Smooth touchdowns are not the key to a safe landing, I'd rather have a very hard landing that is perfectly safe than a very smooth landing which isn't safe at all.
It has nothing to do with airline either, I've had horrible landings with Ryanair and I've also had some of the best.. Either way, I don't criticize or praise the crew for it, whatever the outcome of the touchdown is - It was safe and thats what they are there to do, safely fly the aircraft.
I've had worse landings with Emirates than I have Ryanair, haha.
Smooth touchdowns are not the key to a safe landing, I'd rather have a very hard landing that is perfectly safe than a very smooth landing which isn't safe at all.
It has nothing to do with airline either, I've had horrible landings with Ryanair and I've also had some of the best.. Either way, I don't criticize or praise the crew for it, whatever the outcome of the touchdown is - It was safe and thats what they are there to do, safely fly the aircraft.
I've had worse landings with Emirates than I have Ryanair, haha.
Thread Starter
Don't qiute follow the logic there...."you've paid peanuts for your flight so we're going to slam the plane onto the runway....that will show'em!"
Anyway I'm not particularly complaining, and certainly not questioning the ability of the crew, just interested in this phenomenon.
Dan
Anyway I'm not particularly complaining, and certainly not questioning the ability of the crew, just interested in this phenomenon.
Dan
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From recent flights, I have found the Dublin crews to be quite rough with the plane, with hard landings, fast taxis etc, and these were on clear, calm days! The Italian crews from Pisa treated it like an aircraft should be treated - it was perhaps one of the smootest flights I'd been on!
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BOAC, thanks for the thread link earlier in this one. I note that Tight Slot closed the other thread as "getting heated" due to the presentation of a little hard evidence by an "unqualified" passenger on the number of landing accidents experienced by Ryanair.
One of the things which tends to confuse me is the attempt to mystify the concept of motor skills and muscle memory (including funnily enough the bottom cheeks of a regular pax). In the same way that a pilot gaining experience can judge a physical effect and adjust it, a frequent pax can learn to tell the difference between a positive landing and a carrier deck one, for which I understand carrier aircraft have specially strengthened gear compared to their land based sisters.
I fly from an airfield which is used regularly by Ryanair, and have noticed that their movements about the field tend to be a little rushed compared to the other operators. The culture of an organisation can be quite pervasive, and if the culture at Ryanair is "on time at all costs" mission focused, and this may be contributing to rough handling of the aircraft, then the circle can only be broken by outside comment, accepted at face value by the professionals at the front end, who are after all only human.
While pprune is a wonderful site, I have unfortunately witnessed rather a lot of professional preciousness and a fairly condescending approach to non-pilot contributors, even those who are quite measured in their comments.
"Methinks thou dost protest too much..........
"
rmac
One of the things which tends to confuse me is the attempt to mystify the concept of motor skills and muscle memory (including funnily enough the bottom cheeks of a regular pax). In the same way that a pilot gaining experience can judge a physical effect and adjust it, a frequent pax can learn to tell the difference between a positive landing and a carrier deck one, for which I understand carrier aircraft have specially strengthened gear compared to their land based sisters.
I fly from an airfield which is used regularly by Ryanair, and have noticed that their movements about the field tend to be a little rushed compared to the other operators. The culture of an organisation can be quite pervasive, and if the culture at Ryanair is "on time at all costs" mission focused, and this may be contributing to rough handling of the aircraft, then the circle can only be broken by outside comment, accepted at face value by the professionals at the front end, who are after all only human.
While pprune is a wonderful site, I have unfortunately witnessed rather a lot of professional preciousness and a fairly condescending approach to non-pilot contributors, even those who are quite measured in their comments.
"Methinks thou dost protest too much..........
"rmac
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Rmac,
Let me assure you that the Ryanair culture is that safety transcends any other consideration. Whilst we are conscious of maintaining the schedule we have sufficient spare capacity to pick up on major delays.
As for "rough handling" let me assure you that I always teach that a swept wing airplane should be put on the ground at the right speed in the right place. A gentle touchdown is not important.
The culture of an organisation can be quite pervasive, and if the culture at Ryanair is "on time at all costs" mission focused, and this may be contributing to rough handling of the aircraft
As for "rough handling" let me assure you that I always teach that a swept wing airplane should be put on the ground at the right speed in the right place. A gentle touchdown is not important.
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While pprune is a wonderful site, I have unfortunately witnessed rather a lot of professional preciousness and a fairly condescending approach to non-pilot contributors, even those who are quite measured in their comments.
I'm not suggesting that debate is in any way a bad thing, or that scepticism is unhealthy: However, as in the previous Ryanair landing thread, when professionals offer an opinion, or explain a procedure, surely the wise course would be to treat them with some weight?
BTW rmac - please don't consider this as some sort of personal attack, as that is not the intent: It is however, intended as a general observation.
Fly Conventional Gear
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The thing is though while non-flying 'experts' aren't usually very good at giving opinions on these subjects, quite often neither are the professionals. There probably are plenty of Ryanair pilots on this site, but even if there was a 'problem' (purely from a passenger comfort point of view) with Ryanair's landings I slightly doubt any would admit to on here.
Now it is true that Ryanair take a lot more 'low houred' pilots than other airlines do (which is great by the way and they should be commended for doing so) and therefore it does stand to reason that the landings may not be as comfortable, but just as safe, as some other airlines. I've just started my twin rating for example, on the Twin Comanche (one the coolest planes ever to grace the air btw) and my landings at the moment are pretty awful, and I'd expect the same if I had just started on the 737-800. Maybe that goes some way to answering the original poster's question. Having said that though I don't think 4 round trips a year is anywhere near enough to draw conclusions about the differences between airlines in terms of landing quality...there are just so many other variables to take into account.
Now it is true that Ryanair take a lot more 'low houred' pilots than other airlines do (which is great by the way and they should be commended for doing so) and therefore it does stand to reason that the landings may not be as comfortable, but just as safe, as some other airlines. I've just started my twin rating for example, on the Twin Comanche (one the coolest planes ever to grace the air btw) and my landings at the moment are pretty awful, and I'd expect the same if I had just started on the 737-800. Maybe that goes some way to answering the original poster's question. Having said that though I don't think 4 round trips a year is anywhere near enough to draw conclusions about the differences between airlines in terms of landing quality...there are just so many other variables to take into account.
Last edited by Contacttower; 6th Jan 2008 at 20:47.
Paxing All Over The World
Non pilot speaking
Also:
I have been on the flight deck into STN in the most appalling wind and rain and watched someone (in a Lo Co 734) pull off the most amazingly smooth landing when he could hardly see out of the windscreen and was juggling everything.
I have been in a respected mainline carrier into MUC on a 320 with a smooth-as-smooth slide down the approach and then experienced a suddenly faster sink rate that shook and rattled everything at touch down so that people who were asleep woke up and screamed.
In other words ... there is no telling what about anything from a landing.
Maybe that goes some way to answering the original poster's question.
- Unknown wind at 30 feet off the ground
- Wind at 25 foot that lifted a/c more than expected
- Wind at 15 foot that dropped a/c more than expected
- Unexpected wash of air around the corner of that larger hangar half a mile away
- A unexpected flicker from an engine
- A surprise ...
I have been on the flight deck into STN in the most appalling wind and rain and watched someone (in a Lo Co 734) pull off the most amazingly smooth landing when he could hardly see out of the windscreen and was juggling everything.
I have been in a respected mainline carrier into MUC on a 320 with a smooth-as-smooth slide down the approach and then experienced a suddenly faster sink rate that shook and rattled everything at touch down so that people who were asleep woke up and screamed.
In other words ... there is no telling what about anything from a landing.
