Koorn

Thinking of taking DHLair up on that job offer?
there´s a few things you might want to consider first. People are leaving at an unprecedented rate. People who have only jujst commands under their belts are leaving withn WEEKS of their upgrade.
The reasons are many, but the main ones are:

Cockpit fumes. The 757s that DHLair have all came from BA and are amongst the oldest flying. They have always had problems with fumes, but recently the fumes problem has reached epidemic proportions. For the last tow years or so, the incdence of engine oil in the cockpit incidents has steadily increased due to the poor maintenance on these airplanes. Several lpeople have had to be taken to hospital and others are now suing DHLair because of their exposure to oil fumes. last months safety roundup had about 50 reported incidents in it! And those are just the reported ones. Some pilots are not reporting for fear of their jobs. threats have been made to pilots for decking airplanes that were producing fumes. I´ve had a couple and believe me, it is not nice at all. some pilots have had twenty or more in the last year alone! I´m glad I´ll never have to smel them again, anyway.
Because of the new commands leaving, DHL air are now going to bond newly made up captains. Nobody does that.
There´s a big push on to go to leipzig at the moment as well. One departing manager issued an e-mail telling people th eplan was to wind the EMA base down entirely in the next couple of years. They´ve already done it at Brussels (they are finishing in 2008) and despite management denials it looks like the same thing is going to happen at DHLair. Leipzig are welcome to it anyway as far as I´m concerned.
If you´re a fresh young new hire FO you will be many years (over ten, probably) getting your command as the average flying hours per year are less than 300 because of the nature of the business.
The atmosphere in the company is very bad indeed. Management , and in particular the upper management, seem to identify ways to antagonise the troops and take every opportunity to do so. They keep lists of people that are troublemakers and let that be known to them that they are on it.
In addition to all of this, the crew rooms are depressing and you will spend a lot of time in them (if management tell you the new ones are better, well, I´ve seen one "new" crew room and it´s still like a Gulag)
all this is just a sampling of the problems, but there are many others. Sure all airlines have their problems, but no other airline has the same difficulty with the toxic fumes issue, which is the main reason over 40 people have left so far.
If you do take them up on their job offer, best of luck, but my advice to anyone thinking of it is if you have any other offer, take it..

FCS Explorer

anyone remember the TV report about fumes of burnt oil entering the cabin on Bae 146's having the same chemical contents as nerve gas? [no, i'm absolutely NOT kidding]

7373

Without prejudice

It can't be true because if it were, then you'd be able to see the crew reporting it in the Tech Log. Unless......engineers were to simply tear the offending pages out and lose the evidence.

If let's say someone was to do this, then they could easily be found guilty of manslaughter. Any airline that partakes in such gross misconduct should be reported to the CAA and their AOC pulled immediately!

Anotherflapoperator

Not nerve gas, but the fumes contain organophosphates, similar to what's in sheep dip, hence older 146 pilots talking and writing funnily. I had a smoke evac after an APU seal let go, fortunately on stand, and it isn't pleasant at all.

I'd hate to get the blood tests done as I have a fear of getting grounded and put in an old folks home (i'm 37!) Plenty of use of ieSpell in all my posts though.......

Koorn

Yes, no joke at all there. The organophosphates in the oils cause damage, full stop. While there are problems with a few different types of aircraft, the DHLair situation is somewhat different. The airplanes aren't just getting a bit of a background smell anymore, they're regularly flooding the flight deck with intense fumes. There's talk of getting a sniffer system in the cockpits to measure air quality, but that's a complete waste of time, and really just an attempt by the company and the CAA to whitewash this problem. The crews themselves know when the things are full of fumes, the fould smell tells them so!
Also, once this stuff gets into your system it doesn't get out. you have it for a very very long time. I understand decades, if not for life.

google oil fumes and 757s. you'll only find the tip of the iceberg regarding this problem, though.

The bottom line is, if you breath this stuff, and you will, almost nightly if you fly these old 757s (at least a third of the machines pong of the stuff all the time) you will damage your health long-term.

orangesky

7373 ... i think you will find it has been put in the tech log many times, with the usual "no evidence found" sign off. over the years i believe various bits in the engines have been changed to try and rectify this to no avail .... with the result that it appears less and less in the tech logs.

7373

Especially if a crew write them up one day after snagging the aircraft due thick fumes inhibiting normal thought processing and burning of skin and eyes. Then another crew fly it knowing what has occurred on the same aircraft, to find the pages have been completely removed from the tech log. Page sequencing completely out.

Third hand information but told by a very trusted DHL employee.

Jenson Button

Remember a few freight dog captains who would spark up with a Cuban or two and that would smell pretty bad.

On a serious note, there is a video produced by the Australians concerning these horrid chemicals pertaining to flightdeck and cabin incidents esp the 146. I think the IPA sent a DVD out about this, its worth a look.

Be safe when you scratch and sniff.

Banzai Eagle

Koorn
Should you not be targeting all future DHL Pilots not just wannabies?, or are you an ex wannabie?.
Just a few points to add to the discussion.
A (single) recently promoted Captain has resigned to join the AAIB (serves the Company right for laying on trips to AAIB!). Good luck to him those jobs rarely come up, and guess what he wants to maintain flying with DHL Air on those fume filled aircraft you mention.
Fumes - not my specialist subject and neither yours by your words. Yes there are fume issues, a lot of hard work going on, the Company is trying to cover it up - insult to many good people including PN the Safety Officer (MBE or maybe OBE for services to Safety), CAA are trying to cover it up, nope. And D of T want to put "sniffers" onboard to confirm or deny your claims, surely that must be good?.
As far as I understand it there are 3 schools of thought on fumes
Small majority - some v militant , some v worried, maybe leaving because of fumes or LEJ concerns
Majority - sitting on fence awaiting outcome of "sniffers"
Small majority - what fumes - whats the problem?

Trouble makers lists - no lists mate.

Lets face it had Silverjet not come along would you still be at DHL Air - probably.

BarrowBoy

Banzai, so you are the person who swallowed the company pill then, we wondered who it was!!!
Yes a single captain has left for a very good job, why then are the company concerned enough to start bonding new captains? Could it be that they have heard about a significant number of new/ about to be new captains looking elsewhere?
As for the fumes you may not be an expert but the evidence is very hard to ignore. No one has ever suggested PN isn't trying his hardest but when the company line is to ignore the problem or act aggressively towards it he is p***ing up a wall; and yes I am an expert of sorts.....when I had a fumes incident serious enough to put me in hospital the MD wanted me fired for losing a sector......
As for a minority concerned....does losing 30% and rising of the pilot workforce in 1 year sound like a minority....yes Silverjet have given a large amount of people (and about to get larger!) the opportunity to get out....however for the rest left it may make the company look inwards at how it treats its crews, but then again.....

Koorn

Banzai.. What? Anyone who applies for DHL air is a wannabe regardless of experience?
And i'm not targeting anyone. I just think people should know what they're getting into. they're hardly going to advertise the fumes issue at an interview, are they?
I'm certainly more of an expert on fumes than you are. I've experienced them and they are extremely unpleasant. Nasty chemicals, especially organo-phosphates, are not part of a healthy breakfast.
one can debate the intricacies of exposure to this stuff til hel freezes over but the fact is, they are not good for you.

If you aren't bothered by organo-phosphates, sprinkle them on your own porridge, not mine.

sapco2

Reportable problems to DHK’s parent group (DPWN) plus the CAA; the Department of Transport; the Commission of Toxicity; or any other organisation (IMHO) lie squarely on the shoulders of DHK’s accountable manager.

Let’s take a look at the AM’s track record during his 3-year tenure as MD of DHK. Bear in mind, the following points are MY PERSONAL OBSERVATIONS and are given to you without prejudice:

1. Our current Flight Operations Director is the 4th to hold office during the MD's 3 year tenure!
2. THE MD has made 2 of his PA’s redundant during the same period
3. The Ops manager may be added to the list because he’s recently resigned
4. Communication with pilots' is poor and there seems to be a general atmosphere of distrust between management & pilots.
5. The MD has successfully suppressed any form of meaningful pilot representation. Our former 3 ‘DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED’ pilot representatives resigned their posts (all of whom are leaving the company). They were replaced by 2 non-elected (some may say ‘compliant’) representatives, albeit the more vocal one of those 2 has also left the company.
6. He intimidated the UK's DPWN pilot representative into resigning his position on the European Works Council Committee
7. Toxic fumes continue to be a major problem and one former pilot is currently in the process of suing the company?
8. Excessive numbers of Pilots are leaving (I’ve lost count) including one newly promoted captain
9. Heavy demands are being placed on the training department resulting in reports that 2 contract training posts may be created
10. The concept of creating 2nd officer roles, paying £22,000 PA, fixed to a bond for 5 years may be construed as insulting to those who have shelled out so much money on their training. Furthermore, it is highly likely to undermine existing co-pilot terms and conditions leading to a snowball effect of continuous pilot turnover (salary later fixed at £28,000 - edited 6/8/07)
11. Year on year salary reviews have been minimal
12. FDP has not increased during the past 2 years
13. Plans to Bond newly promoted captains (Idea rescinded 20th Apr 07 - hence edited post)
14. Plans to slash Training pay increments for newly promoted TRI’s
15. Goodwill from the pilots is being tested to the absolute maximum

Third-hand reports indicate similar problems MAY exist in DHK’s sister company EAT.

In spite of this insight into DHK, I wish those planning to join the best of good luck. To finish on some positive aspects of the job, these are;

1. Overall, aircraft line maintenance is very good (toxic fumes being a seperate issue)
2. The rosters are good due to very able Crew department
3. The hotel standards are generally good
4. Flying hours are low (300 per year is typical)
5. Discretion reports are NOT common

Overall I like my freighting job but it's marred somewhat by the above resolvable problems, attributable directly to the accountable manager!

Koorn

Yes, I have to agree with everything Sapco has posted here with the exception of the roster. The rostering guys are good but they are constrained by the policy decided upon by the man in the corner. I was never happy with the roster except the odd month when I wasn't being screwed.
One has to wonder exactly what his mission is here. If it's to get as many people to leave on their own as possilbe, he's succeeding.
And i do wish good luck to anyone joining.

neil armstrong

I still have an high respect for the crewing/rostering team at DHL air.
Its the only department that is properly managed in my eyes.
For the rest the problems mentioned in this post are spot on.
Ive been flying freight for many years and always enjoyed it but the way management is treating the crews in this company its time to go and find another job.

Neil

Avenging Angel

Agree with the above.

Of particular concern is the aircraft that will be selected for the Department of Transport “sniffer” tests referred to by Banzai Eagle.

Some of the aircraft have not exhibited any sign of fumes due to the fact they have better or newer or whatever engines with better less worn seals while others are of a state that offers an almost daily dose of “fumes”.

Of course DHL will be offering one of the “problem” aircraft for the test because they are very concerned about our health and know that offering one of the “no problem” aircraft would be a complete waste of everybodys time.

They will……………won’t they…………….??

Love_joy

Surely, if this is really true - and I dont doubt that it may well be - that there would be more incident reports from aircrew coming out of DHL?

I know that if any aircraft I flew, or even my car filled up with "intense smoke" I'd be out of there so fast.... A fumes incident with a Thomsonfly 757 last year resulted in an emergency landing and full evac.

Koorn

In fact there have been lots and lots of reports. The latest Safety publication, which records all ASRs and MORs, had about fifty reports of cockpit fumes, outnumbering all other problems put together. They made a lot of noise about fixing the problem. They reduced the amount of oil carried in the engines and replaced a couple of the really bad engines but there were still incidents happening several times a week as of last week. An incident can be anything from a "Bad smell" to "intense fumes". It's very subjective and by all accounts they're never visible.
As the previous poster mentioned, there are some airplanes that don't smell at all, so the problem must be just in the defective engines, but after two years of listening to their promises about fixing them I just got tired of waiting and decided to vote with my feet. I hope they do fix it. It's incredibly dangerous both in the long term and in the short term. More than one pilot has been virtually incapacitated, fortunately the worst of these was on the ground. The consequences of both crew being affected by a major fumes incident, well let's not go there.
Just as worrying are the long term effects. Quite a few of the airplanes put a low level of fumes in the cockpit on every flight. Just a smell, but an unpleasant one. It means one is being continuously exposed during the entire flight. Some don oxygen, others just put up with it and still others can't smell it at all. The airplane is usually grounded for a while, given a compressor wash and sent back out again, sometimes with one pack deferred as U/S, other times with the problem cleared, until the next time it happens.
As I've said, this isn't my problem anymore (I hope!) so this is my last word on the subject.
Best of luck to all there, none of them deserve this.

SQP1

I find it hard to believe anyone can make such a drama out of this. The fact is the problem is a small problem blown out of all proportion by a few drama queens.
I'm tired of a tiny majority making all the noise while the rest of us just get on with what were expected to do.
I have smelled the "smoke" and it's not that bad at all. The vast majority of the pilots have smelled it in fact and it's only a few that wine about it.
You don't need putting oxygen on. That's completely over the top.
Going to the hospital, rubbish. I've smelt it and it's only that, a smell.
The guys who wine about it are just looking for attention or something else to wine about is all.

I'm glad you were able to find such a nice jammy number for yourself mate, but why piss on the rest of us who are just trying to do our job?
Sounds to me like you just got a problem with wherever you are.

Avenging Angel

And here’s another bunch of “winers” whatever they are!

http://www.thisistravel.co.uk/travel/news/BA-cabin-fumes-posehealthrisk-article.html?in_article_id=41432

http://www.aviation-health.org/news/browse.php?action=shownews&category=&id=18&topicid=24368

http://www.aopis.org/Aopis_Chapters.html

Obviously just some sort of mass hysteria we are witnessing here……isn’t it………isn't it ......?

7373

Spot the managements answer above
No wonder people feel that they are banging their heads against a brick wall. If this is how they deal with a serious safety matter, what hope do you have when an honest mistake is made
And you wonder why attrition levels have gone through the roof!