The New ALAEA (Merged)
Joined: Jun 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,187
Likes: 59
From: OZ
Masterstroke - I'll leave the obvious inuendo about the alias alone - you come across as a highly skilled practitioner of the best CRM, NOT.
IMHO it's always better to be supportive rather than take cheap shots in public.
IMHO it's always better to be supportive rather than take cheap shots in public.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 407
Likes: 0
From: sydney, australia
embarrassment doesn't come into it.
The careers and lives of hundreds of people are being toyed with.
They deserve an answer. Those people don't have access to Cox and he wont give the union a straight answer. What needs to happen is when he is interviewed the right questions are asked. Your average reporter doesn't know the terminology that is used to "spin" the truth when it comes to aviation maintenance and cost cutting. We need to head them in the right direction.
Questions like "When you compare the cost of overseas repair facilities to Australian facilities do you just use the base hourly rate as your comparison or do you compare the rates you are actually charged"
"What steps did you take to improve productivity in Sydney Heavy Maintenance before closing it?"
"Are the OHS requirements the same"
The careers and lives of hundreds of people are being toyed with.
They deserve an answer. Those people don't have access to Cox and he wont give the union a straight answer. What needs to happen is when he is interviewed the right questions are asked. Your average reporter doesn't know the terminology that is used to "spin" the truth when it comes to aviation maintenance and cost cutting. We need to head them in the right direction.
Questions like "When you compare the cost of overseas repair facilities to Australian facilities do you just use the base hourly rate as your comparison or do you compare the rates you are actually charged"
"What steps did you take to improve productivity in Sydney Heavy Maintenance before closing it?"
"Are the OHS requirements the same"
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,557
Likes: 95
From: moon
Mr. Cox is engaging in the well known tactic of setting people's expectations, otherwise not even a person as stupid as him would deliberately destabilise his own workforce.
The idea is that numerous rumors will fly about regarding the "future" or lack of it, for the Tullamarine site. Some will be planted, possibly even on Pprune. This will increase the anxiety level of the workers involved as they fear the worst....
Finally, and with great fanfare, changes will be announced. Something like, "You will be offered a chance to work for Forstaff, who will take over the site. You will receive half your pay and cease to be employed by Qantas."
The idea is then that all of you aided and abetted by a complaisant ALAEA executive, will all go "Phew! We still have jobs! I thought it was going to be much worse!".
The idea is that numerous rumors will fly about regarding the "future" or lack of it, for the Tullamarine site. Some will be planted, possibly even on Pprune. This will increase the anxiety level of the workers involved as they fear the worst....
Finally, and with great fanfare, changes will be announced. Something like, "You will be offered a chance to work for Forstaff, who will take over the site. You will receive half your pay and cease to be employed by Qantas."
The idea is then that all of you aided and abetted by a complaisant ALAEA executive, will all go "Phew! We still have jobs! I thought it was going to be much worse!".
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
From: Orstralya
More of Mr. Cox's spin in the aviation section of the Australian today. Including the headline that outsourcing QF H/Maint has only cost 20 jobs.
No David, it's only cost you 20 CR's. The rest of the numbers you hide are in VR's and they are people who are lost to the industry forever.
A more accurate count is a few hundred so far. Probably more to follow after the good people at tulla get shafted, despite recently being congratulated on turning out their last 30 aircraft on time or better.
So, it doesn't matter how much you give them folks. Or, how many effeciencies are made. It will never be enough and it's as plain as the nose on your face that they won't be happy until all maintenance is outsourced. It's just a matter of when.
Fewer than 20 sackings: Qantas
Moving its wide-body maintenance is not costing jobs, says Steve Creedy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 07, 2006
QANTAS expects fewer than 20 forced redundancies as a result of its controversial decision to move wide-body heavy maintenance operations out of Sydney.
Heavy maintenance on Boeing 747s is now being handled at Avalon, Victoria, and 767 work has moved to Brisbane after the airline's decision earlier this year to keep the work onshore.
The airline said at the time that 420 jobs would be lost in Sydney and about 340 jobs would go across the airline.
Officials said this week that almost 20 Sydney workers had transferred to Avalon, which was now taking on new employees again, and about 30 had gone to Brisbane.
Qantas head of maintenance and engineering David Cox said a higher than predicted number of redeployments combined with voluntary departures meant no one had yet been sacked.
"There have been about 160 redeployments so far and we now have less than 20 to 30 compulsory redundancies and reducing," he said.
"If we can get away with zero, that will be a sensational job.
"But if you think about it, we had 980 people in scope, 420 jobs in the Sydney region and 340 net jobs.
"(We've worked) through all of that and so far we've had no compulsory redundancies and and if we do, it will be less than 20."
Qantas is now talking to unions about changes it will need to ensure the work remains in Australia.
It is also reviewing narrow-body heavy maintenance operations at Melbourne Airport and expects to make a decision within three months on whether that work will be sent offshore.
"We've begun the process," Mr Cox said.
"We would still expect to have a result by September thereabouts, which is what we announced back in March, and we'll do exactly what we did with the wide-body program: we'll do a very detailed analysis."
Qantas rejects union claims it wants to reduce labour rates to overseas levels and says the key to its success will be greater flexibility from its workforce.
This includes the ability to "bank" overtime so it can be used when needed - a sore point with unions - as well as more efficient work practices.
Mr Cox said the airline was committed to "having a go".
"The resources are being put behind this and both Geoff (Dixon) and I have gone out and made public comments that we're going to have a go at it," he said.
"We're not doing that lightly. We're doing that because we mean to succeed and it will be a genuine attempt to build an efficient and sustainable business in Australia.
"Some measure of that is that we have invested more than $300 million in Qantas engineering in the last few years and there's more being spent right now."
Mr Cox said Qantas had been "put through the wringer" over its claims of a 20 per cent gap between the productivity of its maintenance operations and those of the big maintenance repair and overhaul (MRO) companies, but the figure had stood up. He did not believe anybody now disputed that there was a gap to close. "But obviously that doesn't happen overnight. It's a one to two year journey," he said.
Mr Cox said the Qantas decision to do most of its own maintenance was at odds with industry trends, and he could not think of a single long-haul competitor that did not have a substantial part or all of its maintenance done in a low labour cost environment.
These included Singapore Airlines, Emirates (which flew in workers from the sub-continent), Lufthansa and United.
"So we're going a bit against the run of play here and that's why we need to keep talking about the need to transform and why it could never be anything other than a continuous journey of improvement, always with one eye on the market," he said.
Qantas estimates it is the 12th-biggest MRO is the world, employing 6000 people in facilities around the country.
It is running four wide-body heavy maintenance lines as well as two conversion lines in Avalon and Brisbane. This includes Australia's first freighter conversion project, in which four 737-300 passenger aircraft are being modified for the airline's freight joint-venture with Australia Post, known as Australian Air Express.
It employs 850 people in Avalon, all but 60 of them contractors employed by Forstaff Aviation, and 450 in Brisbane.
Wide-body heavy maintenance officially moved from Sydney on June 1 and the first 747 to have a "D-check" under the new system is expected to return to service next week.
While the airline hopes to do most of its 180-200 annual wide-body maintenance checks in Australia, officials say it is inefficient to do all of them here, and it will still send an average 10 to 20 aircraft overseas.
This includes work on A330s, which is always done offshore but which Qantas eventually hopes to bring back to Australia.
Mr Cox said expanding operations to a fifth wide-body heavy maintenance line capable of handling every Qantas aircraft would mean capacity would outstrip demand and the productivity gap with overseas operators would expand. There was no way it could keep the rest of the work onshore if it did that, he said.
"When you see us from time to time with a check offshore, it doesn't mean that we've changed our strategy," he said. "Quite the opposite. It's the strategy working. And the strategy is to ensure that the four lines in Australia are as competitive as they can be so the works stays here."
The Qantas maintenance chief said the extra work would go to "the assorted normal places", including Singapore, Hong Kong and New Zealand.
The airline was also looking at adding a specialist A330 Lufthansa Technik site in the Philippines and would make a decision in the next three or four months.
It was now in the planning stages for maintenance of its Boeing 787 fleet and was also talking to providers capable of doing the heavy maintenance on its A380s.
No David, it's only cost you 20 CR's. The rest of the numbers you hide are in VR's and they are people who are lost to the industry forever.
A more accurate count is a few hundred so far. Probably more to follow after the good people at tulla get shafted, despite recently being congratulated on turning out their last 30 aircraft on time or better.
So, it doesn't matter how much you give them folks. Or, how many effeciencies are made. It will never be enough and it's as plain as the nose on your face that they won't be happy until all maintenance is outsourced. It's just a matter of when.
Fewer than 20 sackings: Qantas
Moving its wide-body maintenance is not costing jobs, says Steve Creedy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 07, 2006
QANTAS expects fewer than 20 forced redundancies as a result of its controversial decision to move wide-body heavy maintenance operations out of Sydney.
Heavy maintenance on Boeing 747s is now being handled at Avalon, Victoria, and 767 work has moved to Brisbane after the airline's decision earlier this year to keep the work onshore.
The airline said at the time that 420 jobs would be lost in Sydney and about 340 jobs would go across the airline.
Officials said this week that almost 20 Sydney workers had transferred to Avalon, which was now taking on new employees again, and about 30 had gone to Brisbane.
Qantas head of maintenance and engineering David Cox said a higher than predicted number of redeployments combined with voluntary departures meant no one had yet been sacked.
"There have been about 160 redeployments so far and we now have less than 20 to 30 compulsory redundancies and reducing," he said.
"If we can get away with zero, that will be a sensational job.
"But if you think about it, we had 980 people in scope, 420 jobs in the Sydney region and 340 net jobs.
"(We've worked) through all of that and so far we've had no compulsory redundancies and and if we do, it will be less than 20."
Qantas is now talking to unions about changes it will need to ensure the work remains in Australia.
It is also reviewing narrow-body heavy maintenance operations at Melbourne Airport and expects to make a decision within three months on whether that work will be sent offshore.
"We've begun the process," Mr Cox said.
"We would still expect to have a result by September thereabouts, which is what we announced back in March, and we'll do exactly what we did with the wide-body program: we'll do a very detailed analysis."
Qantas rejects union claims it wants to reduce labour rates to overseas levels and says the key to its success will be greater flexibility from its workforce.
This includes the ability to "bank" overtime so it can be used when needed - a sore point with unions - as well as more efficient work practices.
Mr Cox said the airline was committed to "having a go".
"The resources are being put behind this and both Geoff (Dixon) and I have gone out and made public comments that we're going to have a go at it," he said.
"We're not doing that lightly. We're doing that because we mean to succeed and it will be a genuine attempt to build an efficient and sustainable business in Australia.
"Some measure of that is that we have invested more than $300 million in Qantas engineering in the last few years and there's more being spent right now."
Mr Cox said Qantas had been "put through the wringer" over its claims of a 20 per cent gap between the productivity of its maintenance operations and those of the big maintenance repair and overhaul (MRO) companies, but the figure had stood up. He did not believe anybody now disputed that there was a gap to close. "But obviously that doesn't happen overnight. It's a one to two year journey," he said.
Mr Cox said the Qantas decision to do most of its own maintenance was at odds with industry trends, and he could not think of a single long-haul competitor that did not have a substantial part or all of its maintenance done in a low labour cost environment.
These included Singapore Airlines, Emirates (which flew in workers from the sub-continent), Lufthansa and United.
"So we're going a bit against the run of play here and that's why we need to keep talking about the need to transform and why it could never be anything other than a continuous journey of improvement, always with one eye on the market," he said.
Qantas estimates it is the 12th-biggest MRO is the world, employing 6000 people in facilities around the country.
It is running four wide-body heavy maintenance lines as well as two conversion lines in Avalon and Brisbane. This includes Australia's first freighter conversion project, in which four 737-300 passenger aircraft are being modified for the airline's freight joint-venture with Australia Post, known as Australian Air Express.
It employs 850 people in Avalon, all but 60 of them contractors employed by Forstaff Aviation, and 450 in Brisbane.
Wide-body heavy maintenance officially moved from Sydney on June 1 and the first 747 to have a "D-check" under the new system is expected to return to service next week.
While the airline hopes to do most of its 180-200 annual wide-body maintenance checks in Australia, officials say it is inefficient to do all of them here, and it will still send an average 10 to 20 aircraft overseas.
This includes work on A330s, which is always done offshore but which Qantas eventually hopes to bring back to Australia.
Mr Cox said expanding operations to a fifth wide-body heavy maintenance line capable of handling every Qantas aircraft would mean capacity would outstrip demand and the productivity gap with overseas operators would expand. There was no way it could keep the rest of the work onshore if it did that, he said.
"When you see us from time to time with a check offshore, it doesn't mean that we've changed our strategy," he said. "Quite the opposite. It's the strategy working. And the strategy is to ensure that the four lines in Australia are as competitive as they can be so the works stays here."
The Qantas maintenance chief said the extra work would go to "the assorted normal places", including Singapore, Hong Kong and New Zealand.
The airline was also looking at adding a specialist A330 Lufthansa Technik site in the Philippines and would make a decision in the next three or four months.
It was now in the planning stages for maintenance of its Boeing 787 fleet and was also talking to providers capable of doing the heavy maintenance on its A380s.
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 333
Likes: 0
From: australia
ask him when did qantas engineering become a liability and not an asset
when rainman wanted to fly qantas it was because they were maintained and operated ABOVE world standards.
now we must lower our standards (costs) to meet world standards
If rainman was been made to-day would he fly qantas?
when rainman wanted to fly qantas it was because they were maintained and operated ABOVE world standards.
now we must lower our standards (costs) to meet world standards
If rainman was been made to-day would he fly qantas?
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
From: Melbourne
Without the semantics of worrying about minor spelling mistakes and falling hook line and sinker for a cheap shot let's get back to the topic at hand.
What questions would you ask the Qantas Head of Maintenance ?
This should concern us all as we ALL fly ALL the time.
My assertion is this Australian Aviation Standards are above world standards, have always been and should remain that way.
Why does cost always override safety ?
We have never had a Jet crash due to maintenance and there is a sound reason for that. ALL Licenced individuals in this industry are professionals keen to uphold the high standards we and CASA demand of ourselves.
Pilots, LAMEs, Approved persons (CASA) are individuals that take their jobs very seriously many have been disciplined for requiring maintenance standards be upheld.
Never before have we been assailed in such an orchestrated fashion we must stand together and fight for the rights of the flying public and ourselves.
A burning hole in the ground is not a legacy which I wish to leave for other to bear.
What questions would you ask the Qantas Head of Maintenance ?
This should concern us all as we ALL fly ALL the time.
My assertion is this Australian Aviation Standards are above world standards, have always been and should remain that way.
Why does cost always override safety ?
We have never had a Jet crash due to maintenance and there is a sound reason for that. ALL Licenced individuals in this industry are professionals keen to uphold the high standards we and CASA demand of ourselves.
Pilots, LAMEs, Approved persons (CASA) are individuals that take their jobs very seriously many have been disciplined for requiring maintenance standards be upheld.
Never before have we been assailed in such an orchestrated fashion we must stand together and fight for the rights of the flying public and ourselves.
A burning hole in the ground is not a legacy which I wish to leave for other to bear.
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
From: AU
What questions would you ask the Qantas Head of Maintenance ?
We know you and JV have presented the case to the Board to totally outsource QF maintenance. Marg J supports the case. Can you please tell us when that is going to occur?
A date will do, not a Downer type answer to a yes / no question.
We know you and JV have presented the case to the Board to totally outsource QF maintenance. Marg J supports the case. Can you please tell us when that is going to occur?
A date will do, not a Downer type answer to a yes / no question.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by masterstroke
Hope the guys at Tulla enjoy their drive to Avalon to start their new jobs with Forstaff !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
How ironic that ALAEA memebers in Sydney were shafted by the establishment of a facility that their union (oops, association), helped set up. Not to mention the kick backs they recieved.
Those days are over!
To the new executive. Good luck with the fight. I am very confident that you will achieve a whole lot more for the membership than has been achieved in the past. I look forward to your announced co-operation with us AWU/AMWU members.
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
From: Brisbane
The Spirit of Australia????
The firt question I would ask the man if I was a mild mannered reporter would be
"Mr Cox, the "Spirit of Australia" is a term of endearment that Qantas uses quite frequently in it's media strategy. In light of the current media statements from Qantas how do you see sending your aircraft maintenance offshore as anyting but the antithesis of this.
The Spirit of Australia means mateship does it not?"
"Mr Cox, the "Spirit of Australia" is a term of endearment that Qantas uses quite frequently in it's media strategy. In light of the current media statements from Qantas how do you see sending your aircraft maintenance offshore as anyting but the antithesis of this.
The Spirit of Australia means mateship does it not?"
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
From: Delhi
Ok who is going to be the first to raise this question? WTF happened in the asn office today?
Unconfirmed reports - CR Industrial manager escorted from building by a big black security guard.
Can any of you Exec members who post on here every day confirm this report or maybe a QF manager in-cognito?
I hope it is true and a long time coming.
Unconfirmed reports - CR Industrial manager escorted from building by a big black security guard.
Can any of you Exec members who post on here every day confirm this report or maybe a QF manager in-cognito?
I hope it is true and a long time coming.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
From: Australia
Originally Posted by Woomera
We are getting just a tad sick of monitoring multiple threads covering the same subject.
Anyone who starts yet another QF engineering thread will be merged into this one...SO DON"T
Anyone who starts yet another QF engineering thread will be merged into this one...SO DON"T
Just wondering if you could merge all the pilot threads? Then we would be left with only 3 threads. One for fly boys, one for the hosties and the last for spanner chuckers.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
From: Australia
Originally Posted by mahatmacoat
Ok who is going to be the first to raise this question? WTF happened in the asn office today?
Unconfirmed reports - CR Industrial manager escorted from building by a big black security guard.
Can any of you Exec members who post on here every day confirm this report or maybe a QF manager in-cognito?
I hope it is true and a long time coming.
Unconfirmed reports - CR Industrial manager escorted from building by a big black security guard.
Can any of you Exec members who post on here every day confirm this report or maybe a QF manager in-cognito?
I hope it is true and a long time coming.
I'd like to see that.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 407
Likes: 0
From: sydney, australia
Originally Posted by Woomera
We are getting just a tad sick of monitoring multiple threads covering the same subject.
Anyone who starts yet another QF engineering thread will be merged into this one...SO DON"T
Anyone who starts yet another QF engineering thread will be merged into this one...SO DON"T
The whole idea of getting people to post good questions for qf engineering heads to answer was there would be quality questions for a reporter to ask.
The whole thread is now a shambles.
Top effort.
Why not ban engineers completely?
I'm sure the pilots would feel a lot more secure "not" knowing what was going on in the engineering department.
The consistancy of decisions displayed by the moderators on this site is as bad as a nsw rugby league referee in a first grade match.