Shafting of Instructors
 

Am I alone in feeling shafted because I enjoy flying and instructing

Pay crap.
Comittement and loyalty expected but not given.

I wouldn't my employees that way but it seems in the current market Flight training organisations think they can treat us any way they feel. Especially Part-Timers

Could not agree more!

The problem would appear that the schools train more pilots than the market has jobs for. The result is that some people are prepared to accept sub-standard conditions, eg, pay, work unpaid hours on 'the front desk', in hangars etc. just to get the bosses eye and stay on to get those extra hours.
The fact of the matter is that the boss would not be prepared to come around to my place and attend to the phone for fee - ever!
Nor clean my car and bathroom for free - ever.
So why do some pilots do it. Simple they are trying to get more brownie points in front of the next guy.
My opinion is that if the organisation cannot pay reasonable wages (considering the amount the pilot has spent on training) and give reasonable conditions then that organisation should NOT be inbusiness.

Yes a lot of instructors feel shafted, but consider this also. If you feel you are being shafted, what did you agree to when you first started working there? If you agree to work for peanuts and wash the boss's car and executive washroom, then you can't then turn around and say that you are being shafted when you are asked to do exactly that.

When I started up I only ever gave new instructors the realistic view that I would provide an infrastructure within which they could develop their careers if they provided their own students initially, but the rest of the work would be done by myself or my senior instructors. Yet still I had accusations of "you never give me any students!":rolleyes: I will add that my instructors don't have to be there unless they are flying, and the front desk is done by full time ground staff, the instructors are never asked to do anything but instruct.

I know there are employers who expect you to be there all day, and pay you only for flying time. No, this is not good, but if you agreed to it then you have created the situation yourself. The thinking that if you didn't take the job someone else would is not necessarily so, we all started somewhere, and when you reallise that success or failure is your choice and not your employer's, then you too will succeed.

Good luck!

Flydive,

I get the impression that you instruct part time: I think this is the key:yes the pay is poor and will never get better, but if you enjoy it and it is only a side line to your normal occupation then it is a way of getting free flying.

I instructed full time for three years and at the end was tearing my hair out:my flying had long since peaked and started to deteriorate, I had a low level of patience with students, all in all I had a bad case of instructor burn out:I would never recommend anyone doing it full time unless they need the hours prior to going commercial:there is just too much repetition for it to stay enjoyable.

Now I am back doing it and a few days a week is just staying enjoyable, but i shall not be renewing the rating next time.

Flydive. -Jenny etc.
Definitely with you regarding the crummy return on our investment.
BUT consider this - the punters can realistically only afford to pay so much per hour before there aren't any punters !
Our problem,in this beloved country of ours,is the cost of the juice we have to shove into our aircraft and also the cost of maintenance/spares amongst other things.
The easiest way to keep the price reasonable is to keep down the rewards for the instructor, and unfortunately there are dozens who are prepared to accept this.
Oh for the days of no VAT, Fuel Tax and even the Aviation Fuel Rebate that Clubs used to get in the Fifties/and,I think,Sixties in order to maintain a pool of trained pilots in the Country !
Such a large proportion of our costs is fuel these days, that unless the diesel comes in or some other source of cheap fuel becomes available,
the situation is unlikely to change.
There are a million young kids out there, deep into Airfix and Free-flight pylon jobs, who will follow just as we did and take anything to get a start in the flying game.

Sleeve.


:( :(

Mr F.D

You are not alone. When I started the instructor poll I was aiming at the same point. However it does seem that over half of us are 'happy' :mad:

I personally have just about had enough of the whole scene. Fortunately the club I work at are very good to me, but this is still on the basis that I do not get paid if I don't fly.

I can also empathise with Whisperbrick, I think I am having a bad case of 'instructor burnout'.

I have done it for three years now and I can assure I will not do it next year.

The answer? I do not know.

Rant over

ICN

In-Cog-neeto

If you feel that way, why are you doing it?

As a punter, I want an instructer who enjoys what he/she is doing and has the ability to impart knowledge and experience to us students and not someone who is doing it because they can't get another job.

If you feel that you are getting shafted by your employeers then maybe you should start making an effort to improve your lot by getting another career.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

C-I-M

C-I-M,

come on, wake up.

there are a few instructors who do it part time and just for the enjoyment:whilst the vast majority see it as a stepping stone to airlines,

Do you think we enjoy getting paid £10,000 a year to risk our necks flying light aircraft (oh yes and getting paid sod all when the weather is bad)

Or that we enjoy driving battered cars with 100k miles on them ans seeing students arrive in porsches and ferraris ?

There must be an a motive: progression !

And as a student you are probably totally wrapped up in the beauty of flight:for us it is a job which has good and bad bits like any job (your own included)

But the beauty of flight blah, blah doesn't pay my damn mortgage does it ?:

whisperbrick


Do you think that I enjoyed earning 'slave wages' whilst I was gaining the necessary qualifications for my job.

It is something that you do in order to acheive the aim.

But then again, I did not have to deal with paying punters. (I was locked away in a lab)


As a PPL student, I think that I can reasonably expect to recieve a good quality service for my hard earned money and not 'a bad case of instructor burnout'.


BTW No porsche or ferrari here.
:D

Woah boys, steady on.................I did not mean this to become close up and personal ;)

For what it's worth C-I-M I give my students 110 % value.

You have struck close though. I do consider that if my heart is not in it then I should get out, and as I said in my first post I will finish this year.

BTW I would LOVE to get a better job but as you might be aware it is a VERY TOUGH TIME in the aviation industry right now.

A relevant point that I have made in an earlier posting is that the training industry will lose YET ANOTHER highly experienced instructor !!!

I am very good at my job and will leave the training industry at a time when I have a good dollop of the "knowledge and experience" that you seek from an instructor. So what would you prefer C-I-M ? My one and a half thousand hours instructing or someone who has just qualified (no offence meant to fellow instructors) ?.

Maybe it IS a case of 'you get what you pay for' after all. By keeping the pay and motivation down the experienced instructors are leaving in droves.

ICN:p

ok,
C-I-M I forgive you as you have no porsche !
Its just that i have had students with loadsa dosh who swan in without any preparation (you know not reading the thom sections I asked etc.)and feel cos they have money they don't need to make any effort.

In-cog makes an intersting point:which would you rather have a brand new instructor, no experience but keen and eager to do their thing or an experienced person who may be a bit jaded by it all ?

Well...I got well over 1000 hours as an instructor, and I still enjoy it. I DO think we are very much underpaid, but at the end of the day I really enjoy flying, be it by myself or as an instructor.

As with every job, when youve been overloaded with work, leaving at 0700 in the morning and not leaving the airport until 2300 for weeks, you sometimes look in the mirror and ask yourself "why am I doing this!?!"
But this is the same in most types of jobs.

Basically, I love to fly, and would do it for free if I had to!!

Yes the pay is lousy but I would still rather be teaching people to fly than stuck in an office - even if it would mean earning ten times as much. Am I crazy ?

Well - if you think your pay is lousy...I just heard from a colleague that he was offered a job at Comair, Sanford, Florida - as a dual rated (JAA/FAA) flying/flight instructor............for US$10 per hour.

About £6 per hour (pre tax).

Thats a step up. When I were working at Comair the pay were $7.25 in 1999.

But I really expected the dual rated instructor to get better pay!!
I mean, first go thru the PVT-COM-CFI FAA ordeal.
Then the REAL pain starts with JAA ATPL!! Im doing that right now at Oxford Aviation, and I do enjoy it, but the amount of theory required comared to FAA is quite ....up there to put it mildly.

when i did my helicopter rating in the us in 77 the instructor got $10 an hour it must have gone down since then.??

curtisjenny is pretty much on the mark and charlie foxtrot india is close exept for the fact that most new instructors don't get to negotiate for the terms or conditions of employment, thay just start and accept whatever is given. i agree that if you accept being exploited you have to live with it

it is the over abundance of willing workers that creates the problems that most of you face as you try to get ahead in this industry. supply and demand. the reason that some feel that it's exploitation, (and sometimes it is), is because you were not informed properly on the state of the industry prior to training, or did not do enough homework before setting off down the clay brick road of flying.

i see at the airport that i operate from, young eager guys that are here before me everyday, pushing out aircraft, washing and cleaning windsheilds, sweeping the hangar out and anything else that needs doing, some complain a bit (they are entitled to),most just get stuck in and do it. some bosse use them and other bosses try not to but there is not as much of a profit margin in flying training or charter as there once was. costs are getting out of hand and operators cannot cover these increases without losing customers.

unfortunately things are not looking great for the near future, you can all see that, so if you are lucky enough to have employment in flying then at least you can develop your future. think of the many others that can't get a leg in the door and never get a chance to realise the dream of having the best job on the planet.

don't give up, persevere. the rewards will come. :)

.......... now I can see that £15 per hour isn't really all that lousy after all compared to what you guys in florida are getting ! However, I do think it's worth bearing in mind that the people who run all the small independent flying schools over here aren't ripping off their instructors and making huge profits - the people who have owned the three or four clubs I've worked in over the years have been pretty hard-up too. That's why I don't feel I'm getting shafted as the original post suggested. If we put our prices up lots of the students couldn't afford to learn to fly so we'd end up just teaching rich kids whose daddies paid whatever it cost.

I'm not sure of the costs involved in learning to fly fixed wing but in the UK helicopter training costs about GBP 220 per hour including the VAT. Now, if it cost GBP 230 an hour in order to pay the instructor an extra GBP 10 per hour I don't believe that would put off a single potential student.

At its cheapest flying is still expensive. Before we start down this road most of us procrastinate over the money issue. In the end those that want to do it find the cash. Most of the people that I've met who fly helicopters are not rich - but they manage to find GBP 220 per hour, and they could find GBP 230 per hour.

Last few posts hit the nail on the head. The margin just isn't there to pay instructors a decent wage when the cost per flying hour is circa £100. Is it time to accept the fact that we are subsidising the students...and remind them of this when they fail to prepare mentally for a lesson. Paradoxically, It is not just them who pay when they need extra lessons when they are not prepared...by implication we also pay the subsidy but get a free hours flying. Unfortunatley the value of this hour is great when you are a shiny new instructor...it builds your skills and confidence. But after a while the value of this hour is degraded, as although we still are learning, we have seen a lot of it before.

Then its time to upgrade.

p.s. look at commercial instructors where they do get paid a reasonable salary...relatively

Its a people thing not a thing thing
 

I used to instruct (part-time) like whisperbrick but I too got rather bored with it. I began to feel that I was wearing an old T-shirt

It does get repetitive and after a while I started to worry
about things like the insurance cover.

It became like a job but unlike my day job it paid about
the same as the office cleaners.

The medical & renewal fees increase and the aircraft get older and older. The technology is so old in this game its laughable.

Essentially there is no investment/money in this game and for many of us its a hobby out of control.

This whole industry is artificially subsidised by obsessive (largely male) pilots who are often in a rut. They have invested to much too quit and are clinging on by a thread.

I think that the 'professional' training that instructors and the like
have to go through takes away ones perceived freedom to enjoy the experience as they become obsessed with the mechanics of it all....

Its best to be an instructor if your sociable and like a good view
It part of the entertainment business at the PPL end!

Its that old market forces thing again. As long as there are club owners who feel that the full extent of their marketing program can only be to be £1 cheaper per hour than the guy down the road then they'll get more business.

Problem is, those that work like this are (dare I put this one forward!) instructors who ended up owning flying clubs and have zero commercial sense!!

If the difference between £99 and £129 per hour (extra £15 for the instructor, extra £15 for the club to pay the bloke who owns it a bit more and allow investment in new kit, aircraft, kettle, roof, shoes etc.) is going to mean no-one can afford to fly anymore then why are the rotary boys getting full diaries at £200 + per hour for a poxy R22????

There are several clubs on the airfield I'm on. And the cheapest is the least busy. Why? Probably (only my guess) they have the oldest aircraft, smallest premises, least well decorated and presented, most like a sausage factory, charge for coffee and because your average punter understands that he gets what he pays for and is willing to pay to enjoy his/her leisure time.

It takes more balls than any instructor I've met to demand a decent wage but the recent talk of an instructors union may help. It also takes more balls than any Club owner I know to be out there on their own £30 more expensive than everyone else.

So when we welcome in the NPPL because its cheaper for the students, or we try and find cheaper maintenance or we all eventually get deisel engines and drop our rates accordingly (some idiots will, trust me!) then we really only shoot ourselves and everyone else in the GA industry in the foot.

If we all got real, no-one would lose students (if they want to fly, they find the money) and self-fly hirers and everyone would get at least a living wage.

Fancy that. Me, a Club owner, looking to pay an instructor £15 more per flying hour!!!!

Gentlemen. We only have ourselves to blame.

The reality is that flying instruction in this country is far too cheap. as some of you posters have pointed out people are prepared to pay over £200 for rotary instruction in an R22. If we were to operate new aeroplanes for training, then the punter would be prepared to pay proportionally more. It is all about impressions.
Why do you think people pay to do their PPL with a certain company that has a uniform with the instructors wearing gold bars even though they have minimum hours? It is a fantasy that they are all going to become airline pilots and that company gets away with charging £40 per hour more than most others.

The answer to all of our problems is to put up the price of flying instruction by about £60 per hour so that there is adequate margin to pay the instructors a decent wage and a bit over for the owner to make a profit. What do people pay their golf pro or their tennis pro or their masseur or their therapist? I bet you none of these guys would work for less than £30 per hour,so that is what you should be shooting for. If anyone agrees with me then please let me know.

Wow, you guys in the UK sure have it better then us guys in the U.S. I could only dream of making UKP20000 per year!!! Right now I'm making less then $10000 per year!! And yes, I work for one of the big Florida flight schools (but I'm planning on changing that sometime in the near future).

I didn't intend on becoming a flight instructor when I started flying, but had no choice but to become one (like most other pilots). But after a year of doing it, I've come to enjoy the job and the people I work with and train. And due to the current hiring climate, I'm going to have to work this job for at least another year and a half. So I'm moving to a flight school elsewhere in the country (at least trying to) that treats instructors a little more like human beings and pays more then $10 an hour, and guarentees more flight time. I still have my dignity, just a shame the flight school is going to lose one of it's experienced instructors. But they don't seem to care...as long as they can replace me with a "yes man" that will work for $10 an hour and work only 10 hours a week, they think they're better off!

Yes, I've had a bit to drink and I'm rambling a little incoherently....but I'm still sticking to the spirirt of the thread :-)

Well for the first time ever I am starting to change my mind about something pretty fundamental - directly as a result of a pprune thread ! Yes, the other british instructors have made a really good argument for a substantial increase in the cost of ppl training in order that the instructors get paid properly. But where do we go from here ? There must be thousands of instructors who have the view that I've always had ie "rather be an instructor for £15 per hour than a programmer for £50 per hour". Actually I now realise I'd rather be an instructor for £30 per hour - especially when I look at how much it costs me for medicals, flight tests, travel to the airfield etc. However, I'm not sure the problem can be resolved while there are streams of young pilots coming along wanting to fly as much as possible and not caring about the pay because they look on it as an investment for their future airline careers. That's what I think stops instructing being viewed as a career - and therefore stops proper pay scales.

Fancy that. Me, a Club owner, looking to pay an instructor £15 more per flying hour!!!!

Well said Sunnysideup, very refreshing. What are your views on flying clubs that fail to pay ex instructors of theirs?

JWF :D

What are your views on flying clubs that fail to pay ex instructors of theirs?

JWF. Tried to think of a non-liablous, nice way of responding to this but after many uses of the "delete key" could only come up with the fact that, just like in any industry, there are Instructors who are dishonest little !!!!!s and there are Club Owners who are dishonest little !!!!!s.

Then there are good, honest, hard-working, loyal and honourable Instructors and Club Owners who end up falling out big time and accuse each other of being in the category, as well as both making it justifiably very personal and BOTH doing things that with hindsight, neither would have risked, mainly because neither of them have enough money a. to be comfortable b. to be completely honest about whats owed or c. to allow time to sort it out!!!!!!!

This just adds more fuel to the debate and results in more bad feelings and threads such as this

I have a similar problem at the moment which has dragged on a fair while but I will be resolving in the next couple of weeks because I made a personal commitment to do so when I could personally afford to. I did this because we were able to talk sometime after and both put our hands up to being as bad as each other and agree that lifes too short.

It would never happen in the majority of cases if schools charged a reasonable amount and Club Owners and Instructors could make a decent living.

We are all in this because we love the smell of AvGas. Sometimes the fumes cloud our judgement. We all have to eat when we get out of aircraft and go back to grim reality.

As much as it sometimes seems a horrible thought, its money that makes the world (and the propellors) go round and if we all had just enough the industry would not be as rife with Instructors and Club Owners who feel so hard done by each other

The other side of the coin
 

I'm sure most flying school owners are well meaning decent people who do not set out to shaft their instructors or any other employee. It would be interesting to do a few sums to see exactly what it should cost here in the UK for PPL training (say) in a bog standard 172 or PA28, and pay the instructors a decent wage to boot, say national average earnings around £18,000 a year and perhaps cover their necessary fees like medicals etc.

Assume the school is reasonably well equipped with a rented office and hangar on an airfield somewhere and has 6 to 12 a/c. Assuming these a/c are in reasonable nick that's an investment for someone of thick end of £250,000 in kit. Say 6 or 8 instructors part and full time at £18,000 pa (or pro rata). Usual £1 a litre type fuel costs, maitanance ground staff etc. Then add in a reasonable return on investment and a premium for the risk level being taken by the investor (Venture capitalists work on about 50%IRR), and then a sensible utilisation rate, taking account of tech a/c and weather etc.

Anyone care to give me an hourly flying rate and then speculate as to its obtainability here when just about any instructor can then set up next door with no staff and an a/c they rent of some struggling private owner who cannot really afford it, and under cut prices?

Sunnysideup

Interesting reply. I do hope of course that both you and me are not considered to be in your first description of instructors and club owners :)

I too have an ongoing matter of a similar nature, perhaps we will both be fortunate to have these matters settled in the very near future. You are right. life is too short.

I have found this industry to be quite 'tight' and what goes round comes round. It would be nice to think that we can solve our respective differences with these third parties and then just get on with what I am sure we both do well.......aviating :D :D

Cheers

JWF :)

All of us knew what we were getting ourselves into so we can't ask for any sympathy now!!

My mum says "S**t or get off the bog".

There is light at the end of the tunnel though so don't despair, just think of all that dough you'll be earning in 10 years time.

cessnababe,

Spot on - I couldn't have put it better myself!

CAT IIIC - I think you may have missed the point here. We are instructors - that's what we want to be. There is no "think of all the money you'll make in ten years time" - unless things change, many of us can't stay as instructors for another ten years. I, for one, believe that we have a responsible job that should pay enough for us to have a reasonable lifestyle. If I wanted to be rich I wouldn't have chosen to be a flying instructor, that's for sure - but that doesn't mean we can't get a reasonable salary for a professional job. Cessnababe seems to have a much better grip of the reality here.

NO, I dont think I have missed the point. I'm an instructor of three years and what I'm trying to get across is that if you're not happy then do something else. I love being an instructor, just don't love the money but I dont WHINE about it, i just get on. One day I know i'll earn loads.

Yeah, you've all got a fantastic grip on reality. Lets put £60 an hour on top of all PPL training and send another couple of hundred prospective clients over to the States every year. Great idea folks!!!!

:confused:

Cat IIIc - Can you be more exact about which job it is thats going to pay you huge great wads of cash? If its airline, presumably you're using instructing as a stepping stone, if you think you going to get rich on instructing, I think you're sadly mistaken

As a part timer who thankfully does not have to rely upon the income and instructs for fun, I have to agree that the instructing industry is responsible for under-valuing itself. The stiff upper lip approach is not conducive to producing the best quality of instruction in my opinion.

Some individuals are natural instructors who would prefer to stay on in instructing and make a career out of it, but find it impossible to maintain a reasonable standard of living by doing so.

What is needed is a proper career structure with suitable rewards based upon assessment and career progression, so that the talented instructors are retained and valued.

I continue to struggle with this one.

I agree with Martindoc and I'm sure it would make for a much better, more enthused and focused instructors than some (not by anymeans all) of the instructors one sees in schools who clearly have that "God I'm going to be an airline captain and I'm only here becasue I have to be don't mess with me I am already pissed off" attitude. If we accept that most flying school owner are not making a fortune and are more likley lossing one, the only other variable in the equation has to be hire rates both for the aircraft and the instructor.

Again if you accept that there are costs to employong anyone, even on a pay as you fly basis, some of the instructor element has to go to the operator to cover those costs, and of course they also want to try and make a profit. (No business, not even a flying school is there to provide employement, or even necessarily train people, its main objective is make a profit for the shareholders, don't forget that). So if you take this into account what rate should be added to the basic self hire rate to give a good enough additional revenue to the operator to enable them to pay the higher salareries. If someone can come up with something workable that will not just turn customers away, I am sure it will be used.

Some suggestions from you instructors out there would be more contructive than just saying I want more money.

Also bear this in mind, Wannabes and Private Flying forums are full of people trying to get flying as cheaply as possible. No doubt most of you as instructors have spent time hunting around for the cheapest possible flying to build hours or whatever. This seems contary to the desire now to up the overall cost of flying now that you are looking to make money.

Its seems like everything has been said a couple of times already in this thread.

As Ludwig says, when most of us were students we were looking REALLY hard to get the best deal.
I checked out several schools and wanted the cheapest way of getting my ratings with a CERTAIN degree of quality.
Flight Safety were way too expensive so I chose Comair in Florida.
Now Ive been informed that they have really upped their prices and Scandinavian students are really hard (close to impossible) to get started there.
Ive dreamed of being able to live off instructing because my students tell me Im good at it and most importantly, I enjoy it.
Im not going to pretend that I dont wanna fly for a big Airline, but Im in no rush. I think I belong to the majority in that respect.

But the aviation training market is too narrow and the students that have big bucks are hard to come by. Mostly its younger ppl at the end of their teens/start of their twenties that are dreaming of becoming airline pilots, but have VERY limited funds, just like US when we started.
PLUS...there are SOO many instructors out there compared to the number of students, so if you try to up the price, you will find yourself without buissniss.

Its a matter of supply and demand....And we are short of students....

Not all are bad!
 

The school I work for pay me a good salary and pay for any licence renewals. My twin instructor rating was paid for as well.
They are out there!
Neils

Do they have any vacancies ? Is it Wyton ? Fenland ? Where ?

Neils: you are winding us up.

Is this FTO in the UK ? and if it is then what do you have to do for them in addition to your flying duties :D

A theme within this thread has been that the zero-experience wanbees do the rounds of the flying schools to see who charges the least, ie per aircraft hour.

It is not until after they start flying with that 'cheap per hour' organisation that it slowly dawns on them that they are being taken for a ride in that their flying is not progressing at the same rate as their mate who went to fly with a different school that charged more per hour!. They have a feeling that they are being stuffed around.
In short they will have to do more of those 'cheap' hours to get to the expected standard.
Now if they had paid more per hour from the start prehaps they could have ended up with a more experienced instructor, one who could get them through to standard in a shorter time and therefore save them money compared to 'cheap hours charlie'.

Perhaps when we as instructors encounter the wanabees looking at prices we should strongly push the aspect that it is quality of instruction, not cost per hour, that will see them through to standard in the quickest time and with a better standard at that.

A higher cost per hour should also be indicative of a better, more realistic, pay per hour to the instructor, an instructor who is encouraged to stay on and in the industry simply because he/she is paid a reasonable wage for (good) services rendered.