what does it take to fly a jet privately?
 

What qualification . rating /experience would I need to fly a Citation 500 as a private flight. Just me and my friend going abroad to her boat and paying the costs ourselves.
I think doing a cpl and m/e (faa as its n reg ) and instrument rating? Anything else? Minimum hours about 250 ? (ish )
Any one got any pointers if it can be done and where?

In terms of qualification.
As its a private flight, in theory you need a ppl with an MEP rating and a class rating for the particular type of aircraft.

That would allow you to fly VFR, which may not be a lot of use.
To fly ifr outside the UK, you would need an IR of course, theory and flying course.

If its N-reg, all the above could be done in USA to FAA standard.

Again if its purley private, I dont believe there is any need to get a CPL.

In terms of experience... I cant comment.

With only that amount of total time, you will never get insurance.

Citation 500
Cherokee 6
Aztek
Seneca II
Robin ecoflyer
PA28
B200
Jetstream 31/32
Merlin III
Chieftain
Cheyenne III

Over the past year, the list of aircraft that you have asked us to help you decide which to buy is impressive.

As you posted this on 30 Jan 2008, you should have it by now, and will probably be JUST STARTING TO LEARN TO FLY!

Although it's encouraging to see students aim for more that a SEP rating, for the time being concentrate on what you need to do - flying a PA28. I've seen students in the past, with big aspirations for what they'll be doing next, not bother with all the requirements for flying a light aircraft, as when they're finished, they'll be flying a complex twin, turboprop or jet [privately]. As a general rule, they have been the harderst to teach and check, and were the less safe or competent pilots.

Enjoy your PPL.

Hmmmm, somewhat aspirational :ok:

A few flies in the ointment though with a 'wet behind the ears' PPL.

1. If it's your aircraft, well done, hate to see the insurance cover though!!!! (if you can get it)

2. If it's your friends aircraft, even more well done, however ensure that she/he checks the insurance cover as I think you will find a minimum experience level in there.

3. If you are renting it then, to be honest, forget it! No FBO is going to lease one of those to a low houred PPL pilot with no/little previous jet experience.

4. If you get totally stuck I'll fly it for suitable renumeration :}

If you do manage it please let us all have a copy of the flight plan for your trip. Just as I can then avoid that airspace at that time thanks!

Have fun

W2P

I would say it'd be cheaper, safer and easier to sail yer mates boat over here to be honest and forget flying a jet there until you are experienced at flying.... starting with your non-complex SEP aircraft.... otherwise you will wind up DEAD. A fool and his money are soon parted but in aviation a fool and his life are soon parted especially if money is no object.

Money won't buy you experience or skill - I know this can be a frustrating aspect of learning to fly for those financially afluent and we've all seen people like you roll up at the airfield waving a cheque book and expecting miracles but it's the hard bottom line which you would be extremely unwise to ignore. Think of your family's lives when you kill yourself if not your own.

VFE.

Offer still stands if you need the aircraft out there!

Very competitive rates :E

W2P

Thinks......

Its a Jet - TYPE RATING?????????

Civil Pilot and others...
 

I , we have looked at what to buy and researched for months and we learned what we could use and what it would be wise to stay clear of.

MERLINS J 32'S ETC. DEF NOT AN OPTION .

Have really gone round the houses spoken to instructors operators brokers pilots asked heaps of questions on pprune and on Monday we are going to look at a B200 Seems to be the best option for our needs.
Never rush into anything in aviation , I have had that drummed into me too.

Have a £45k budget for training this year so going to get as much flying time in as I can both here and the states. It will be later in the year before I can go to do the instrument course but will do the faa courses first then JAA.

I have founnd a few pilots who will act as captain while I continue my training over the next two years and have got £125k budget to do continuation training. The insurers are happy with a 500 hour pilot.

Fisrt steps with the little trainer are on hold as I am still waiting for the fund (snagged by the mortgage situation in America apparently) .
But anyway Thanks for the help and information

I am impressed if you have found and insurance company who are happy with a 500 hour pilot. I have 500 hours and didnt impress an insurance company when trying to fly something similar to the B200 despite having turbine time:{
Good luck with buying and running the aircraft.

Insurance
 

It isnt cheap insurance either.. but apart from the ppl night m/e and faa instrument all the rest will be on the type so about 350 hours on type within the last 6 months by the time i get to be flying it and in the mean time it has stipulations as to who can fly it for us levels of experience and they are not all that high but then again this is private and not corporate / business.

It requires, a type rating. A pass of either the HPA exam or an ATPL exam pass.

Addition of a type rating to a license requires 200hrs of flight time.

Insurance is an issue for any low hour pilot and 500hrs is low.

There are a few oddities. The Malibu for example. Requires a type rating but not HPA for the piston version. If you want to fly the Turbine you need the HPA and a type rating. If you have a piston type rating then it is only differences training at which point you will also get an SET rating.

The B200 is a full type rating plus the HPA/ATPL.

None of these machines are really VFR machines, the Malibu I fly at VFR levels consumes fuel faster than I can pour it in, yet at FL220 it is doing 220kts for 17GPH. So an IR is also going to be a requirement.

The thought about walking before you run comes to mind.....

If its an N reg Beech you wont need the Type rating. A nice little C90 or similar perhaps.

If it's N Registered then it is true that you don't require a type rating to fly a King Air, however most insurance companies will still insist that you do a course at one of the reputable schools like Flightsafety/ SIMCOM etc, it is still essentially a type rating except that you just get a certificate of completion/competency and not an actual rating on your licence as such. I was recently insured to fly a King air as P1, only after I had passed the said course and had ammased 250 hours as co-pilot and over 700 total time, I'm pretty sure that is about the minimum most companies would accept.

P.S If you need somebody to fly it then I'm available as of now :ok:

Insurance etc
 

Ok the plan is to do the FAA Training, keep it on the N reg and fly it privately 100% (no iffy charters or anything ).

The insurance company are happy if we use it with a pilot untill I have got 500 hours in and that will, in my case, have been about 11 months intensive flying training and most of it on type.

Is there anything the matter with that ? I would have gone the JAA instrument route but initially the FAA route will get me flying it, Then I intend to do the CPL / for the benefit of the training and study for the ATPL even if I dont need it just to get as much knowledge and training under my belt while I am getting in all the flying time I can.

And anyone who wants to help or come up with suggestion please feel free to get in touch. No a B200 doesnt need a type rating in the states on the N reg but I intend doing a few months flying with an instructor anyway. Fool hardy I am not !!!!!

Can I suggest you register the aircraft with the Ilse of Man (M register), they validate all ICAO licences and by all accounts are a very helpful and reputable aviation authority. One of the advantages is that it wont matter if the pilots have JAA or FAA licences and you dont need to register it with a trust in the States as you do with the 'N' reg. The 'M' register is probably the future for most private and business aircraft in the UK I reckon.

The King Air is a great aircraft and you wont struggle to find experienced crews in the UK to help you fly or manage it.

So, from now where you are part way through a PPL, you're going to get night and FAA MEIR ratings, and JAR IR, and a B200 type training course, and 500+ hours on type, and train for the CPL, and study the ATPL, and at the age of 51, all over the next year?

A Bit At A Time
 

I WILL FINISH THE PPL HERE THEN GO TO THE STATES AND THEN COME BACK AND WORK ON THE REST (cpl/atpl studies ) PROBABLY TAKE 2 YEARS OR A BIT LONGER BUT IN THE MEAN TIME I WILL BE GETTING TIME IN ON OUR OWN B200.

If commercial pilots tell me I can do this then I am going to give it a bloody good try. Are you telling me its not possible?

I am told that getting 300 hours in within a year is quite feasable and wont take long to do the next 200 either. FAA ME IR isnt going yo take me a year is it !

Isle of man apparently quit e happy for FAA qualifications but there is nothing to stop me from working towards JAA after doing the FAA is there?
I mean you dont have to be 18 to do this...:ugh:

Radical rabbit, if you have the money, the inclination, and the time, then go for it. Sod the old age naysayers...We only live once ......:D

I wasnt suggesting that you couldnt manage it dear boy, I was simply making a suggestion for aircraft registry! :uhoh:

Sanity
 

I think after about six months of getting opinions, seeing aircraft, talking to a broad spectrum of people and getting some flak on here, I really have to go for it. Best unpaid job I could ever get isnt it. Doing a CPL and an instructors training seems reasonable . At least anyone who took me on as an instructor would know I am not going to leave to go and fly tourist tubes. (no offence to the atpls here.....):ok: Just wish I had this opportunity 30 years ago but getting shot at in different countries was an education not to be missed.Rather be doing it at 51 than at 61 or not at all.

OK so its not a jet, who cares? B200 seems to know its place and does its job well and given they are still building them It speaks volumes for their popularity and reliability and seems better suited for the shortish trips we will be making.

I would rather do the FAA training here than the states for many reasons if it is possible, mainly though because we live in "the real world" over here and our airspace and weather, as others have commented, is vastly different, And I cant speak American either which doesnt help! (what does "gotten" mean?)

Does anyone have a solution to doing FAA training here ?

It sounds to me like you really do have an awful lot of research still to do! people on here have answered your questions and tried to give you good advise but you seem to take offence at this and disregard it anyway. You seem to be jumping around at different ideas and have no clear direction. You stand to lose an awful lot of money very quickly in the unforgiving nature of aviation - I really hope you dont and wish you well.

Flying a Jet Privately
 

Firstly you would need all the tickets mentiones ME IR. The C500 also requires a type rating then you have to do a single pilot rating as the C500 was not originally designed as a single pilot aeroplane unlike the CJ!.
If you obtain the rating then keping it is very difficult legally.
As has been said you will have major issues with insurance but really unless you have a few hundred hours plus on complex ME pistons I wouldnt even think about it. Speeds over the ground in decent 350knts plus means things happen very quickly.
If you are serious then it is a very rewarding to get your rating and fly what is very nice aeroplane all be it very old technology as a single pilot aeroplane it requires alot of work the CJ1 is much easier.

well I can see where the 'radical' bit came from. I assume we are talking real aircraft here and not add ons for MS Flight Sim?

Radicalrabit, the advice that you have been given on here is very sound and comes from a bunch of us who are actually flying the high performance aircraft that you aspire to.

It is a long and arduous road and not something you know out in a couple of years.

However if you want to come and take a look at the workload in flying a high performance aircraft I will happily take you for a trip. 22,000ft at 220 KTAS with an IAP at the end should give you an idea of where you need to be heading. This is basically B200 speeds so should give you a sound idea.

Going to Sweden on Sunday returning Tuesday. Plenty of space Malc.

Sunday
 

Thanks for the offer Bose but this weekend's too short notice.

I'll pm you my number so we can plan something else if thats ok?

Thanks
 

Thanks to the forum and the pilots and others who responded.

I now have a proper training plan, a realistic time table and a clear view of what we are going to buy and operate and why.

The B200 won hands down in the end mainly due to the shorter trips we want to do (apart from the ones to France and Spain) that a Jet would be inefficient on.

Just need to find the right aircraft now, but that will have to wait a few weeks yet.

I had loads of really useful PM's apart from the postings on here and I might even bore you all with the details of my training as it is a bit different from the norm.

smell that ?........The waft of jet exhaust fumed propwash ........ :)

if you flew the King Air on 1 engine.

I would be looking for 290 KTAS at 22K.

Not the King Airs I have flown. Even with the BlackHawk engine upgrades. Although granted I might be thinking of the 90.

Mid 250's seems to come to mind. And the offer was to give an idea of speeds which I am sure you would agree 220KTAS is closer then the 100kts spamcan trainers he is used to?

Argh the confusion!
Youngskywalker, this post:was not referring to your posts, it was referring to THIS one...
by "A Very Civil Pilot"

Thought I'd clear that one up :rolleyes:

are we un confused yet ?
 

1500 HOURS IN 2 YEARS AVERAGES ABOUT 3 HOURS A DAY given some time off to spend withthe horses and sleeping and reading and planning and ....
I mix 1500 hours between three types, Cherokee Six Seneca and B200
I have a planned training schedule and have at the moment six different pilots who offered to fly the left and right hand seats as required when required.
I can fly MY aeroplane when I want and where I want and not where someone else wants to go and I fly in all and every type of weaather supported by some really experienced guys. Mixed in with full time instruction.

To me that is the best flying I can ever get and the best bit is that someone else is footing the costs of all of it. Think that beats winning the lottery ! O k so I dont get paid for flying but well you cant have everything.

Aparently I still get paid for fixing computers and teaching diving to the boss and her familiy . Hope some of you come and spend some time on the boat next year as a thank you fpor your help !

I think you my be a little unrealistic with 1500hrs in 2 years...... Apart from the fact that you are only a student and when that is complete you will be a vanilla PPL the weather is your worst enemy. I fly most days, I teach and I travel for business. I have a JAA IR and and CFIK aircraft that will fly above most of the weather. I still get weathered off a lot and still only manage around 400hrs a year. Most professional pilots don't manage much more.

Your are 5 years away from 1500hrs as an absolute dedicated flyer.

Weather
 

Thanks Bose, I can always use experienced comment.

With all due respect for your experience and I completely understand the problems of uk weather, I can go to France or America or Italy to hours build where the weather is better than here. Just going from Barton on a dull grey drizzly morning to find a fine clear day over at Gamston has shown the differences of flying here. Having said that though , you know what you are talking about so I am not going to disagree am I? I will just have to fly every day that I can, and hopefully the weather will not be too bad. Maybe going to learn in Barbados would be a better bet? just try to dodge the tropical storms? If i can only do 2 hours one day I will have to cram in a few more the next.
:ok:

I find it exhausting just contemplating the task you have set yourself. A relentless flying and study schedule in such a short period of time would leave anyone shattered!

I agree with Bose that a two year target is on the optimistic side. 700+ hrs a year even with scheduled duty hours and an ops department in support is enough for most people... and that includes the days when one would rather do anything rather than go flying again... Study, airport aggro and life WILL grind you down if time is a self imposed pressure.

I would have thought signing up to a full time ab initio ATPL/IR course and accepting a low hours tally for the first year would be a wise investment and give you the best possible theoretical grounding. This would then leave you free to concentrate on the flying....

Just a thought...

Also I would factor in sick time, when I was doing 400-500 hours a year as a corporate Pilot I seemed to suffer from lot's of colds/blocked ears and sinuses no doubt brought on from poor cabin air, constant pressurisation and de-pressurisation (remember in something like a King Air at high cruising altitudes the cabin ALT may be about 9-10,000feet, quite tiring after a while and I'm a fairly fit and healthy 32 year old), also you can probably write off at least one if not two months a year on maintenance if you are doing those sort of hours, especially on an older King Air.

My bet is you will be sick of the sight of a cockpit after six months of that amount of flying!

Most of us here are just jealous of course, I for one would love to be able to go flying whenever I wanted and in a great machine like the King air!

1500 in a king air
 

Am more likely to end up with getting bounced by a horse so Yes time off is a consideration.

We may have access to substantial funds but I dont think wasting it is on the agenda. £843 an hour (300 per year stats ) for 1500 hours is over £1 1/4 million!

So while a lot of flying time is going to be in the B200 I want to use both the Seneca Cherokee and something else as well to get a diversity of experience not to mention saving a huge amount of money.

Recently started looking at PA-31-350 though with the cost of fuel as it is they are getting expensive to operate too.

I AM RELIABLY INFORMED I can fly that without an additional pilot and do some of the trips up to Scotland and Ireland and IFR any time after multi engine Intrument course.


(awaits further abusive pm's)

I'm sure there is no need for the abusive PM's!

I guess it all comes down to how good you are. Some people pick things up easily and quickly and can be very competent with relatively low hours, total flying hours don't always tell the whole story when judging how good or knowledgable a Pilot may or may not be. As mentioned before it also comes down to how many years of exposure to the flying industry that you have, how many accident reports that you have read, how many friends or aquaintences that you have lost in flying accidents over the years (I can count 4 now in 15 years and have learned something from them all). You could just be very talented at flying and have a natural flare for it.

Learning
 

:)I have been reading AAIB reports since I started learning to fly the first time with Raven Air 20 years ago, shame I had to give up then but such is life. I was told it is wise to learn from your mistakes but better to learn from the mistakes of others. I try to undertsand why people might have done what in hind sight looks stupid or why engineers seem to do or not do things that result in the loss of aircraft soon after maintenance. I ponder the outcomes and the implications of what happens when things go wrong. I hope I benefit from seeing the things people did right, made damned good wheels up landings, dead prop landing etc etc. Hope I learn to get things that right too.

As for flying skiils or aptitude for the job in hand, I got into a Cherokee Six a month ago, for the first time at the controls since '84 and was told I obviously hadn't forgotten much. I managed to fly it holding heading straight and level, climb and descend and in trim climbing and turning and coping with some turbulence had about 40 minutes of a refresher. Far cry from days at Manchester Airport slotted in between the big stuff though. I have spent the best part of the last six months trying to re learn things but until I get my medical my flying is going to be pretty limited. Its a steep learning curve but then everything I ever have done has been so thats nothing new.

Anyway seems a few people have faith in me not to make a complete:mad:k up of it and when that faith amounts to over a £1/4m of investment in training and the equipment to train in, I have probably a better chance than some.

Maybe, as some have stated, its a shame that chance was given me instead of someone younger but it came to me so I'll do the best I can. It has already stimulated my eldest daughter to do better at maths and science because she wants to fly now. Just see what happens!

Radical

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you can't do any of this, just that from your current starting position your plans and timetable seem a bit over ambitious, especially now that you have mentioned 1500 hours in 2 years, and (forgive me if I have missed a bit) being a full-time instructor.

I feel it would be a bit like me, having done some sailing 20+ years ago, come up with a plan to enter the single-handed trans-Atlantic race!

instructing
 

Excuse me but I was under the impression that quite a few people going the cpl /atpl route do instruction justas a means to build hours, rather than as an end in itself? Leaving a problem of continuity in training among other things.

I thought being an instructor for the job itself would be good. So do tell me why in my case it cant be done?:ugh: