spinnaphobia
 

Instructors out there:
What advice would you have for a 100+ hrs PPL holder who's remained spin-free all this time, and has developed a terror of them? I know some spin-and-recovery practise would be very good for my flying, but I'm simply too frightened to try (with an instructor, of course) I don't know if it's the thing itself, or a fear that it'll be too much for me to handle. It's certainly partly the unknown.. What will it feel like? Will it all just be a blur or will there be time to take things in and think it through?

As things are, I'm nervous even of stalling, in case things go wrong and I won't cope.

Help, please.

When I was a kid, I couldn't get enough of them on RAF Chippies. Now I'm older.....well. No it doesn't go blurred but the earth can rotate quite fast and the vertical angle seems unusually steep. It's a good picture but there isn't a lot of time for contemplation. The recovery sequence has to be burnt in the brain. Just get a competent, possibly aerobatic, instructor to do it for you first, then teach you. If you have to recover from a spin later, the training just kicks in and you do it! So it's no problem anymore then, is it? :)

[This message has been edited by Yogi-Bear (edited 21 June 2001).]

Thanks for the words of encouragement YB. One further thought: Which of the light aircraft we tyros get to fly nowadays has the best spin characteristics? (In your experience, rather than the theory. That I can get from books.) That is, nice an' slow an' gentle..

JS

Forgive me if I am wrong, but since you say you are nervous of stalling I suspect that for you doing a stall is a matter of closing the throttle, raising the nose a bit and hanging on while the speed washes off in an uncontrolled manner and then recovering after something happens – whatever something is.

If I am broadly right with that guess, then I am not at all surprised that you are apprehensive regarding stalling (and certainly spinning). Quite right too.

But stalling does not have to be like that at all.

Let us imagine you want to do the simplest easiest stall of the lot – one done with idle power and in the cruise configuration. Pick a nice day, good horizon and vis, go to about 4000 feet agl, do your checks pre stall (HAZEL) or whatever you have been taught, do a last clearing turn and roll out on your chosen heading with cruise power.

To start the exercise, close the throttle, lower the nose a tad to hold about 20 kts less than the cruise speed and trim it out in this glide.

Your job now (should you wish to accept the stalling mission&#8230 ;) is to keep the wings level, keep the ball in the middle and use the elevator to make the speed trickle off (at say 1-2 kts per second). Please note you do not try and hold height. As the speed gets lower and lower, you will have to progressively apply more and more back pressure (you have stopped trimming remember).

What you are now alert for is the onset of any of the following characteristics

Airframe buffet

A one wing heavy tendency (quite likely)

A little snatch on the controls (especially the ailerons)

The ball trying to go out one side (so that you have to work at it a bit to keep it in the middle).

The nose trying to go down (pretty certain in the end)

NB If your aircraft has an artificial stall warner (and that going off is the first thing that happens) then by all means trickle another few knots off and wait for the aircraft itself to talk to you.

When any of those aircraft characteristics above is detected by you – congratulations! -you have reached the stall and to recover just relax a little of the back pressure and allow the speed to build back up by a knot or two. Then add power and fly gently away.

IMPORTANT - Height

While doing this, keep an eye on the altimeter and do not go below 3000 feet agl. If that happens open the throttle and climb back up for another go. If you had to stop the speed reduction because of height then note the speed you got to and when you start again pull the speed off a bit faster - until you get to five knots above where you were before - and then resume the slow rate of speed reduction.

Finally, when you are happy with the clean stall you are ready to apply the same technique to a landing configuration one, even a high power one. But do walk before running. With power on you may well be climbing quite markedly to get the slow speed reduction. So be it, height is not an issue other than for ground clearance reasons.

IMPORTANT - incipient spin tendencies

If when you do the speed reduction the nose starts wandering out one side further and further despite you applying the (correct) rudder to stop it then abandon the speed reduction and take the aeroplane back and complain about its handling.

Similarly, if the nose at any time starts to rise as you are reducing speed stop the exercise at that point and again complain.

Neither of the above should happen with an aircraft used for training that has a C of A.

Sorry if that is all too basic.

JF

JungleStrip,

Thats very good advice above from JF.
Get comfortable moving in and out of stalls first before going on to spinning.

If you are sure you want to spin - how about this..
Avoid Tomahawks like the plague - the spin rate is high and can disorientate the best of us.

Find a good aerobatic aircraft -perhaps the Slingsby.

But by far and away the most enjoyable, graceful and atmospheric spinning I have done was in a Tiger Moth. Absolutely wonderful and a nice steady spin rate - not like your Hotpoint on max RPM.

Also I think the open cockpit made it less disorientating, maybe the fresh air flowing past...

I agree with H&T re the DH82a, great aircraft for spinning, I DO NOT recommend the Cessna or PA28 as they tend to degrade into a spiral dive and the instructor will tend to rush the exercise to get the patter in before the spin becomes the spiral dive, which can come over as panic and so worry the student. Beagle Pup spins well, don't try the Cap10 though until you are happy with spins as it develops quite a high rotation after a couple of turns.

I've got spinnaphobia, im a complete pansy when it comes to roller-costers, never go near the things. as part of my CPL I had to do spins in a C-152A, I can safely say there is nothing I would rather NOT do in an aircraft, but, they do happen, and if they happen to you you need to know what to do. on the ground I've constantly been told the drill, but wondered 'would I just freeze like a rabbit' etc. Only one way to find out; In the spin the only thing stronger than my fear was the desire to stop the whole situation. close thottle, check stick neutral & forward, anti-spin rudder, recover from dive. first one was a massive shock, the rest just bl**dy scary, best way I could descibe it is like a dog trying to chase its tail whist falling from a block of flats. I heard that standing on the 'stiff' rudder works, and it does in the C-152, with the rudder deflected by the airflow, the resistance tells you which wan to push (against it). would JF or other experienced aviators care comment on this technique.

I did them, I hate them, at least I can recover. everyone should give them a go, for their own sake, you may even like them (I can't for the life of me see why).

at the end of the day its mind over matter; your instructor dosn't mind so it don't matter ;)

As for stalls, best advice is NEVER use alerons, things of the devil as far as the stalls converned, Rudder is the only control to keep the wings lever(and very good it is too) keep the ball in the middle and alerons central and its hard to go wrong. the idea of stall awarness is that you are aware of it and can cope, practice is the only way, and with an instructor and height, its a safe way too.



[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 22 June 2001).]

I would heartily recommend spinning, it holds no real fears if you start at a decent height, and once you have done a few your confidence will increase.

The C152 is ideal, because it is hard to get it to spin in the first place. If you put in half a turn of nose up trim before you start the manoeuvre you can take your hands off if it all goes wrong and it will recover into a dive just below Vne and start to climb (provided you close the throttle!).



------------------
"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"

Aircraft to spin: C152 Aerobat for its forgiving nature. Not to spin: PA38 for its tightness and associated recovery problems, and the DA20 Katana, which wants to remain spinning for some time after the recovery process is implemented. Inadvertant spins, as mentioned, are easily prevented, providing the wings are kept level using RUDDER ONLY. As an instructor I have been spun unintentionally twice, and due to the spin practice during my own training, I was able to recover without second thought. Give it a go, youll enjoy it too.

JS,
The C152 is reasonably benign as above. The Tomahawk is an experience, ditto. Not called a Taumahawk for nothing. :) But OK when you are used to them. Sling sommewhere in between. Don't know about the more exotic machinery. LRT, you're spot on.
Go on, give it a try as advised above. You can keep your socks on for this!

Get into it!
It's scary I know but any instructor worth their salt should be able to ease you into it.
It's been a while since I did any aeros instructing but the trusty ol 152 always did ok, sure there are better aircraft out there but for someone coming to terms with spinning it was ideal.
Advice: Don't choose the newest instructor on the block find the experience and preferably an aeros instructor for the reason that they will tend to be able to patter it in a calmer manner(hopefully)so you will be able to see that it does all happen relatively slowly really. And make sure you complete at least 3 full rotations before recovering (personal opinion).Spinning has always had a phobia about it but once you have done a few you'll realise it ain't that bad but make sure you do practice at least a few and with plenty of height to let it all develop, and don't worry, everyone else has been there too!

Thanks for the advice everyone. I don't fly f/w aircraft very often, but since I do sometimes I decided I ought to have had a go at spin recovery. I'm planning on doing it with an instructor I know well, who's been instructing on C152s for years and years, and she's so calm and laid back about it that I'm beginning to be less scared. I'm still not expecting to like it, but you never know.

------------------
Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

Just done my FI(A) in a Slingsby. Like you I was very worried about the spinning.
After the first one I was fine. It's the fear of the unknown, coupled with those deep ingrained words from previous instructors, which quite rightly put the fear of God into you!!!!

You'll be fine. I found it the most useful and interesting part of the course.
In the right aircraft, it can be quite enjoyable!!

LJ

little red train

I'm sure its a slip of the keyboard but what you have described there is known in the trade as a reverse recovery. It can produce a very high rate of rotation spin that may prove very difficult.

It is most important that the first control application is rudder opposite to the direction of rotation. You should then pause (for the order of the time it takes for half a turn or to shout out loud PAUSE) before moving the stick progressively forward with ailerons central until the rotation stops. Chopping the throttle can of course be done at the same time as the rudder is applied

JF

little red train

Forgive two posts, but I did not want the important comment above to be lost in a bunch of JF verbiage about more general matters. You asked for comments about how best to ensure the correct recovery rudder is applied. While I do not question the accuracy of what you were taught in regard to the aircraft you wrote about (I have never spun a 152) I do feel it may not work on all types and, more importantly, do not feel it is the fastest way of choosing the correct foot to shove out like you want to break the rudder bar (which as we all know is how recovery rudder should be applied and maintained until rotation stops)

If the spin is erect, most people will correctly identify the direction of yaw by seeing the direction the aircraft is rolling. Since they are the same in a simple erect spin that is not usually a problem. However, should the spin be inverted (or become inverted as can happen with a reversed recovery or slow centralisation at recovery) the direction of roll will then become opposite to the direction of yaw. In which case life becomes more dodgy as it is then very much easier to make a mistake.

So what to do? The only way of deciding the direction of yaw that I know of which is totally foolproof for any type of aircraft or any type of spin is the turn needle of the turn and slip gauge. It never lies. If it is pegged out to the left you need to shove the right rudder for all you are worth. And the reverse for the other way. All test flying spin recoveries are initiated this way, and if the test aircraft does not have a turn and slip gauge then one is fitted on a special bracket right up in front of the pilot’s face.

Did you happen to watch Jeremy Clarkson spinning in the ETPS Hunter the other night? If so you may have glimpsed the special spin panel fitted for teaching swept wing spinning at ETPS. It has a turn and slip in the middle and a roll direction light either side. If the left light is on and the needle is out to the left you need right rudder to recover and you are spinning erect. It the needle is out to the left and the right roll light is on you still need right rudder for recovery but you are spinning inverted so you pull the stick back.

I would suggest that aircraft are not normally best flown by rote. But IMHO the exception to this idea is the selection and application of spin recovery controls. They are best identified and used very much by rote. Unless a pilot has pretty recent and comprehensive spinning currency (I don’t care who they are) they will not find an inadvertent spin much fun. Hence the need for rote. Indeed when Bill Bedford demonstrated 12 turn Hunter spins at the 1959 Farnborough air show he did the recovery using the turn and slip and altimeter. He described the view outside as unhelpful in getting the recovery right.

Just to finish on stalling, and not to seriously argue your point about ailerons, it is normal when investigating stalls to establish the response to aileron as you approach the stall and even in it. There is no harm in this if you have the speed pegged (don’t continue the speed reduction while looking at the ailerons) and you desist as soon as you find you do not get normal response to a tentative input. Some light aircraft have remarkably sophisticated wings (with a change of section towards the tip and use of washout) which enables the root to stall first and the outer wing airflow to stay quite benign. I did a lot of stalling with a tufted PA44 to show just this point to aeronautical engineering undergraduates and certainly with all the centre and inner wing tufts facing fully forward in a fully developed stall you could waggle the ailerons (and control bank angle) with impunity.

JF

Thanks for the comments and suggestions everyone. Interesting stuff.
JF - Great reading, as ever. It isn't the stall itself that's the worry, but the chance that I might mess it up and end up in the dreaded sp*n. Specially in approach config/ with power. But there's only one way round that fear: Go out and do it. I will not, however, be "wiggling my ailerons". Something to leave to you experts, that.
HandT: Tiger Moths. I wish. The only air I'll have on my face will be coming through the door after the instructor gets out.

I'll be sticking with the C152s then, to start with. I'll be booking up for next week, with the oldest and most placid instructor I can find (you've got to be right about that, BETA. Can't bear the over-verbose or jumpy ones at the best of times) In the meantime, any further thoughts or advice gratefully absorbed.
Doing this seems a much bigger challenge than the 1st solo, or even getting the PPL..

JS

There is no chance of a spin if you carry out the stall using the technique I covered.

YOU remain in control throughout because you are controlling the speed. If the speed does not change quickly you will find nothing else does either and with practice you will be able to drift in and out of whatever characteristics arise. Just do everything gently and you will be treated gently in return.

Enjoy

JF

Thanks again JF. I've printed the relevancies out and will tape them over the glass in front of my nose.
..And you will be the first to hear, when I've stopped rotating. Assuming I'm not screwed into a field in Devon. In which case, you may have to be the third, after Wessex Emergency Services and the CAA. :)

In all the aircraft I've spun, we have entered by (full) aft central stick and (full) rudder deflection.
If the aircraft is being flown close to the stall, with the stick a long way back to minimise or stop the descent, then how can using rudder at this time be an advisable action? Surely these are the exact control inputs a pilot needs to make to enter the spin? If wing drop has occured, then the aircraft is stalling and a recovery should be initiated - using rudder here will surely make the aircraft more unstable and likely to depart.
JF this is not a criticism of your advice, I just can't see the benefit of using rudder in a stall to avoid spinning!!

AT

Mmmmm. Read the brief. The stick should be used to control airspeed not to minimise or stop the descent

As for the use of rudder at or near the stall, the pupose is to stop any yaw from developing and hence prevent a spin.

This is in contrast to the use of rudder to enter a spin where the intention is to induce a big yaw at the same time as the aircraft is deliberately forced deep into the stall by a sharp fully aft movement of the stick.


I don't see these two things as being the same at all.

You may have noticed I nowhere suggested you pick up a wing drop at the stall by use of rudder. I actually said you use the rudder to keep the ball in the middle - which is the same thing as saying you don't let the nose go off sideways (which it may very well do if you don't use your feet to stop it)

Regards

JF

I found that one of the best ways to teach stalls to stall-nervous students was to demonstrate a gentle stall & recovery - usually clean & as benign as I could make it. In & out of it with no fuss.

When it came to teaching the student to recognise & recover, I'd extend the the entry time by using judicious use of a smallpower to reduce the deceleration & give sufficient time for the student to recognise the various signs of an impending, then an actual stall.

I wouldn't rush the recovery, just get them to concentrate on using rudder alone to control the yaw by focusing on an external aim point and using whatever rudder was necessary to keep themselves pointing at the aim point.

Depending on the student, I would even maintain elevator input myself (with them on the rudder alone) until he/she was comfortable in his/her heading control. If necessary I'd repeat this exercise until it was natural for them to use rudder & not aileron.

After that I'd get them to slowly lower the nose until the signs of a stall recovery were evident.

Later refinements on their basic technique was the inclusion of power, faster response, configuration changes & accelerated conditions.

Before spinning I'd get them to do a number of stalls up to accelerated, wing drop sorts as well as unusual attitude recovery. This to remove some of the unfamiliar/fear of the unknown when it comes to less 'normal' attitudes & 'g'

After that the spin itself isn't quite so dramatic.

Another option is to have a go at some aerobatics first, that is to say get someone to fly you some gentle loops and rolls etc. In many ways they are less 'attention getting' than spinning and you will get used to unusual attitudes (i.e. being upside down) before you get onto spinning, the entries to which, particularly, can be very disorientating to the uninitiated. And before others comment, I am not talking about getting taught aeros before spinning, only experiencing them. Besides which, aerobatics are the best thing you can do in an aircraft (on your own anyway).
Cheers DB6

Tinstaafl

There has to be a first time for everything and this is the first occasion I have found myself at odds with one of your posts. The stick is the right way to control the rate of speed reduction in a stall.

I suspect your comments hark back to the common tendency to feel one has to control flightpath during a stall. This is not so. Control of rate of change of angle of attack is what matters which is why the flight path should be ignored. If the stick is used to control speed (AOA) you can pause the process for instructional reasons (all the good ones you mention) at any point in the process.

Don't get me wrong, I agree totally with your objectives - just differ on how they are best achieved

Regards

JF

JF: Thanks for the further thoughts. But:

"You may have noticed I nowhere suggested you pick up a wing drop at the stall by use of rudder.."

I'm probably being even dumber than usual here, but if not the rudder, what do you use?

- JS

The idea is that you DO NOT pick up the wing until AFTER you have carried out the stall recovery:-
rudder to prevent FURTHER wing drop.
C.C. forward to unstall the aircraft
FULL power (can be done at the same time as nose down)
WHEN recovered and sufficient speed, roll wings level and pitch up.

(sound of penny dropping. Echo.)

Aha. Thanks, Fox.

One thing you have to remember is that most training aircraft are designed to be spin resistant and will not stay in a spin once entered unless full pro-spin controls maintained. The C152 is a good example in case. Even with full pro spin controls it will tend to enter a spiral dive.

It's natural to be anxious, but remebering this fact should help.

Hi John,

Quite true, but unfortunately I never had the joy of plenty of vertical airspace in which to operate.

Only way I could see to minimise height loss and control the rate of development was to use a trickle of power.

I'd always close the throttle as the stall occurred. Didn't want any complications to screw up my 'perfectly executed demo'. :) :)

Some very interesting points here - and many thanks for JF's sage points.

BUT - please remember that there is no such thing as a 'STANDARD' spin recovery! TPs will have investigated the behaviour of aeroplanes as they depart from controlled flight and will have evolved the recovery technique appropriate to an individual aeroplane type. The sequence of recovery is crucial - wrongly timed or hesitant recoveries can prove fatal. JF is totally correct - rudder is merely used to PREVENT yaw at the stall; some aircraft will suffer from wing drop at the stall, but rudder inputs should NEVER be used to prevent this. Whereas there is never a 'Standard Spin Recovery', there most certainly IS a 'Standard Stall Recovery'! Keeping the ball in the middle, it is invariably full-power-and-control-column-centrally-forward-until-the-stall-identification-ceases, then hold that attitude, then roll wings level, then recover from the descent.

But to acclimatise nervous students to stalling, spinning and aerobatics, first assess WHY they're nervous. Then develop their experience of unusual attitudes by calmly demonstrating the odd steep turn, glide descent with full flap or whatever.

There was a guy on the UAS where I once taught who would chunder for England at the drop of a hat. I took him up and found that he was just so desperately scared of screwing up that he was getting himself into a helluva state. So we went chasing trains, bouncing his mates and generally hooting and roaring and he discovered that flying a military aircraft was FUN!!. Beforehand he'd flown with a miserable old $od who would tell him off for turning on the battery master with the wrong finger! Next trip we did a couple of gentle aeros (lazy barrel rolls) and flew close to - but not beyond - the stall. He got more confident and went solo OK, then he conquered his anxiety and went on to spinning and aeros quite happily!!

[This message has been edited by BEagle (edited 23 June 2001).]

Hi everyone

Well between us we seem to have got the basics about stalling fairly well discussed. Good here isn’t it?

To revert to the original topic, I’m sure that developing total confidence in one’s ability to stall and recover (in all sorts of configurations and conditions) is the best basis from which to tackle spinning.

Time for bed

JF

PS How nice to see a thread that did not turn into an exercise about who can pass water over the highest wall.

" he was just so desperately scared of screwing up that he was getting himself into a helluva state. ."

I think that's exactly my problem, BEagle. Which is not to say everyone's comments and advice on the whole stall/spin technique on here haven't been extremely helpful, and much more clearly and concisely put than in most of the books..

I'll report back as soon as my gut has caught up with my Trevor Thom.

Thanks to all.

JS

Interesting to note the differences in opinions stated in this thread. Or should I say the lack of standardisation.... I hope that tose who expressed opinions in this thread are Flying Instructors, and not crew-room or back-yard experts. Remember that the aircraft type will behave differently in the stall and / or spin. Follow the approved Flight Manual/Operations Manual.

If you are nervous - tell your instructor. One who is worth his [her] salt will acknowledge the incompatability in the cockpit and get you one who is more compatable. If they disagree - go to a different training organisation.

We were all nervous once, but after numerous supervised and solo stalls and spins, confidnece in one's own ability will prevail - Remember the exercise is about recognising symptoms approaching and during the stall / spin and applying the correct technique to prevent it developing [recovery in theincipient phase] or recovery [for the case of fully developed].

The domestics of the exercise should not be the focus of the brief, activity or the de-brief, as is the case according to some instructors I have met in my time.

Please do not forget the all important LOOKOUT!!!!

Best of luck, Jungley. But although most aircraft probably need quite positive spin entry control inputs to make them spin predictably, once you're used to the world being somewhere other than under your feet, it'll seem quite straightforward.

I'm not sure which type of aircraft you're training on; if it's capable of aerobatics as I assume it is, a few gentle wing overs followed by a gentle barrel roll should acclimatise you to the sensation of 'where has the world gone'. There will be no high 'g' forces or rapid rates of change of 'g'; in a spin sensations are different, but if you've had calm and considerate introduction to aeros, you'll find spinning just another part of flying.

If you have a RAF QFI, he/she will have had to demonstrate the 'fully developed spin off manoeuvre' during the CFS course. But you shouldn't get anything more than the 'normal' spin to start with. In the Bulldog, after finishing HASELLs we would just select idle power, decelerate whilst describing what to look for, then at the appropriate speed apply full aft control column and full rudder. Round she would go, a little bit of waffling about as the aerodynamic and inertial forces decided between themselves who was boss. then she would just twiddle round quite calmly until the recovery. That was almost by numbers; having checked throttle closed, ailerons neutral and direction of turn, we applied 'Full-(opposite)-rudder-and-control-column-centrally-forward-until-the-spin-stops' at about the same rate as it takes to say that out loud. There would be a bit of waffling about as the aerodynamic forces overcame the inertial ones, then it was just a question of easing out of the descent until the pitch attitude required was reached, then sorting the aircraft out back to the heading/height/speed required, re-trimming and debriefing after a good look-out.

Surprising as it may seem, spinning was one of the things that most students found relatively easy to manage (once inital trepidation had been overcome) as there was no finesse - they just had to do one standard set of actions for entry, maintenance and recovery. You can do it too mate!!

I found that one way to get a student to relax in a spin was to do some 5 - 6 turn spins with them tasked with another task like counting the rotations out aloud and perhaps verbal height checks every 500'.

This act of performing a mundane repetitive task in a high stress situation would rapidly lead to a de-stresing of the situation. After a few sessions they could enter, maintain and exit their own spins without a bead of sweat.

After all - the actual control actions are simple.

WWW

So we have 2 mutually exclusive opinions about spin recovery. Beagler - thought you were leaving ;-) proposes the classic throttle closed, elevators neutral, full opposite rudder recovery I was taught. John Farley on the other hand insists you have to apply full opposite rudder first (this is new to me). But which is correct?

And Beagler you also state "some aircraft will suffer from wing drop at the stall, but rudder inputs should NEVER be used to prevent this". Does this mean that rudder should not be used to pick up a wing which drops in the stall, such as a typical PA38 stall? Because that is exactly what I did under guidance from my instructor recently in the PA38 check-out during multiple stalls.

As a lowish hours PPL this stuff is of prime importance in case of unintended (it could never be otherwise!) spin. I read John Farley's piece with great interest, but if I suddenly find myself going down and around and pass rapidly through the inverted, what do I do. I can't afford a mistake. The books say push to reduce angle of attack (even if inverted). But John says pull if inverted (what if around 90 degrees?). I only have a turn co-ordinator and balance indicator, and not the fool-proof turn indicator (I presume you mean the needle which points left or right?). Could I afford to trust the symbolic aeroplane tilting towards L or R in an extremely unusual and unexpected attitude. I don't have long to go - what do I do?

I think it has already been mentioned that the spin recovery technique is not the same for all types. The two aircraft types I instructed on in the RAF had different recovery techniques. Read the manual and know your aircraft's recommended recovery actions.

But in most aircraft, in the onset of a spin (incipient stage) which can be recognised as buffet with UNDEMANDED roll, centralising the controls and closing the throttle should work.

And as for picking up dropping wing with rudder - NO! What your instructor should have said was 'prevent yaw with rudder'. Large rudder inputs at the buffet are asking for a spin to start. The time to level the wings are when they are completely unstalled, i.e. when all the buffet has gone, even if one wing has droppped significantly.

[This message has been edited by Dan Winterland (edited 24 June 2001).]

WWW, you must be a brave man!!

I recently had a discussion with my CFI about spinning. (He started flying with Wilbur and Orville so I trust his opinion!) He related to me what happened at the last instructor seminar he attended.
A gentleman from the CAA asked how many people taught spinning despite it no longer being mandatory. Most people put their hands up. He then asked how many people recovered after 2 turns. Most kept their hands up. Then how many kept it in for 3 turns. Fewer people responded this time. Finally he asked how many kept it in for more than 3 turns. A die-hard few kept their hands up. At this He said "Well you lot are all test pilots, The CAA only certifies upto 3 turns, no more." Cue much coughing and shuffling of feet.

Just enjoy the spinning Jungly, the sense of achievement after going through something so (initially) terrifying is fantastic, you hopefully will realise that spinning is actually quite fun. I remember being a sweating wreck before my first spin now I actually look forward to doing it. (Well it's alot more fun than teaching Effects of Controls part 1!!) :)

Jolly Tall

I was taught almost the same as you except for one notable exception, which was raised by John Farley and relates to the application of rudder before elevator.

Imagine an aeroplane in a spinning attitude and take a mental snapshot of it from the side. Mines a C152, nose down pretty convincingly (about 45deg in my mind) and yawing and rolling and my one is stabilised in pitch cause I'm not smart enough to imagine too much.

The relative airflow superimposed onto the picture is about 10deg forward of vertical, going up. Now zoom in on the tail section.

With the c/c forward, the elevator blankets the airflow from reaching most of the rudder, only a little bit right at the bottom is actually effective to stop the rotation of the spin. This as we know is an important part of the recovery as we need to get the RAF straight on to the airframe as much as possible.

If however you hold the c/c back, the elevator is up. This allows the air to cover a greater portion of the rudder, so it is more effective and we can stop the rotation quicker, therefore recovering quicker.

I remember trying this in the C152 I was doing my aerobatics rating in and either way it tended to recover pretty well straight away, although there was about a quarter turn more if I did elevator first. The manual for the C152 says full opposite rudder, PAUSE (it is actually emphasised in the book), THEN check forward.

Then I started flying the Tiger Moth, tried the same thing, with an instructor of course, and it didn't stop within another 3/4 of turn http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif so I hauled the stick back to uncover the rudder and hey presto, the rotation stopped 1/4 turn later, check forward and away we go again. The flight manual says

Section Three: Emergency Procedures.

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So you figure out how to best recover in the type you are in, or you don't bother learning from your own mistakes and you learn from ours or others'. Note, the principles described above apply to aircraft with low tailpanes/elevators, not to Traumahawks, Seminoles (you weren't actually spinning them were you JF?, just stalling?) or Galaxies, BAe146s etc. Although they would be spectacular to watch. From a distance.

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Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.

Say Again slowly - well I used to do more than 3 turn spins in Bulldogs but I take your point on CAA certification. Interestingly on my CAA FI course we spun PA38's for more than 3 turns which kind of suggested it was OK to me.

The type I referred to in my original post above is Italian and in Italian military service as a basic trainer. They certify it for unlimited spins. I *know* that it doesn't make any difference as it wore a G registration at the time BUT as *I* was signing people off for the type conversion *I* wanted to make sure they could handle its sprightly performance, highish performace wing, snappy stall and neutral spin characteristics.

The aeroplane could bite and for PPL's often with no more than 100hrs TT it was an enticing but potentially dangerous proposition after a diet of Warriors and C152's.

Indeed it once entered an inadvertent spin from a full flap power on stall exercise that I was demonstrating. This was diconcerting.

I was absolutley NOT happy to sign off a PPL on this aircraft when it had bitten me AND they had NEVER done a spin in their lives. It wasn't spin approved by the UK CAA.

So what would you have done? In the real world that is? Refused to sign people off for the aircraft - another FI would have done so. Sign them off without spinning it - I hate funerals.

WWW

I'm yet another sufferer of the dreaded "spinnophobia": as a result of a rather unnerving incident in the C152 (?) Aerobat my instructor and I span: it had a vicious left-handed tendency that the engineers couldn't resolve. I simply froze as the nose sliced through the horizon and the resulting view of the ground made me freeze. *Not* the best of reactions, I appreciate!

The funny thing is, I have no problem whatsoever with stalling, of any sort, or aeros (the wonders of aerobatting the Bulldog - ahh! the memories). But when it comes to the spin, I sh!t myself, liberall and in all directions.

I *really* do want to do some spins, if only so that I know I won't freeze in that one possible time it happens for real. But it can be really difficult to overcome a fear reaction like that. I'll have to try a Slingsby or summat, when I get the chance, civvie or otherwise.

Any advice, short of that already given?
-tacc