First Solo De-brief, Formal or Informal, Where, When?
 

SAS says
I have never seen a requirement in a manual for a formal first solo de-brief but it is something I believe is important and would be better carried out in the school immediately after the flight, not down the pub as SAS has suggested, although I understand he is probably anxious to provide a casual celebratory atmosphere.

In my experience a FS student wants to immeadiately talk about the detail asap, so why not de brief straight away combining formality and informality at the same time. Delaying that briefing, in my opinion, could send the wrong signal to the student and be interpreted as 'lack of interest'--What do you think?

There certainly is a time for celebration in the pub but thats after the hangar doors have been closed!

This could be far more easily dealt with in the other thread, where comments can be seen in context and in full.

For a start, my comments were that of course you talk to the student about the flight and you do debrief them, but in a different way to how you would normally do it. You get the information from them (normally as they are blathering at a thousand miles per hour) and then you make comments where appropriate.
What I don't do is frog march them into a briefing room and start lecturing them on the finer points of filling tech logs or what being an aircraft commander means, as you intimated that you do immediately after a first solo.

I don't want this to become a tit for tat arguement between you and I and I'd rather you simply stated you case for doing something, rather than trying to pick apart my methods out of context. That way I can work out of you are actually an FI at all, or simply another in a long line of Pprune fantasists.

First Solo debrief
 

I suggest, don't talk, just listen and enjoy the enthusiasm of the Student.

Tmb.

I think one or two do not understand how short briefs or de-briefs should be, briefings are not lectures

Where I learned to fly, the whole flying club would turn out on the apron, including friends and family. All would have an egg in their hand. So guess what the debrief consisted of!

:E

At Dublin ties were cut off and pinned on the board-womens knickers were used in place of ties--quite a fun flying school

I have never suggested that at any time, that was your mis- interpretation seemingly based on a need to prove something to me that you have no need to.

A good conversationalist is a better listener than a talker, so they say, but instruction is about two way dialogue.

I am quite happy to make a contribution on here and I am quite happy to for anyone to disagree with my opinion, I am also more than happy to also learn from anyone on here, whether they are fantasists or realists. What I am not happy about is your constant sniping which I find insulting. You have gone to great lengths to shew me you are a professional instructor please continue to do so by speaking to me in the same manner that I am speaking to you.

But after having twenty eggs smashed on your head, the only de-brief possible is one with a garden hose attached! Makes the occasion all the more memorable. The instructor? After having smashed the first egg, usually heads straight to the bar :E


Formality kills the fun.

first solo recently
 

I just had my first solo 2 days ago. Still smiling! :)

The debrief involved my instructor asking me how it went, what I thought was good, where i could have done better. Can he give you a real de-brief when he hasn't been in the plane?

I was more than happy to talk it through (at a hundred miles an hour yes) and im sure most first solos feel the same.

I don't think the student would take that much in straight after first solo to be honest - i for one was still pleased i came back in one piece, with the aircraft intact and nose wheel safe and sound. I was quite happy for the instructor to listen rather than lecturing me on how I flew for the first time alone.

Don't think lack of interest should even be mentioned - if i thought for one second i was paying hard-earned cash only for my instructor to be half interested, i wouldn't be at solo stage - and if i was it would be with another instructor!

Cheers

But as the buck stops with me my main concern, as your relatives would be the first to tell me, is that nothing kills you!

I think what you and me are saying is that your instructor should treat you as a 'customer' as well as a student.

Thats all that is needed together with the authorisation sheet/ tech log Eg Any defects?
Filling in your log book & what detail we will fly next-it takes but a few minutes.

Yes of course a de-brief can take place without your instructor being in the aircraft. I am just as excited as you are, I would like to share the experience too!

But isn't that something you do before sending someone off to fly solo? Or are you concerned that something really dangerous happened during the first solo, which the student might forget about if you don't debrief him on the spot? If so, then fair enough. To me it sounds a bit over the top, but of course, you know your students best.

As the CFI or authorisng instructor my main concern is for your welfare and safety at all stages of the PPL course (and for me personally at any stage in your flying career but thats just me).

I have a limited amount of time on a 45 hour course to instill into you the best aviation practice and airmanship that I can and I take that task and responsibilty seriously.

That may sound like I do not subscribe to having fun also but I can assure you the two can be combined!.

If you cannot complete the required training in 45 hours, then take as long as is needed.

You don't rush things simply to fit them into an arbitrary time limit. I have never even thought about the length of time it takes to do a PPL course and nor have any other instructors I've ever flown with. It goes at the best speed for the student. Some can do it in with ease in 45 hours. The vast majority can't and so the course takes longer.

Turbulentmonkey, Well done!

I have already given a reply in a different thread.
 

However I would like to point out...

Every student that walks through my doors is almost never able to finish in 45 hours.

The few that do are exceptionally focused,gifted or have previously flown gliders.

I personally finished in roughly 70 hours.

I'm fresh of my first solo as well. What an experience.

In terms of debriefing he didn't say a word.

I'm no instructor but unless you make serious mistakes what is the point in a debrief?

- If the flight is excellent then there's no point in debriefing whatsoever. Just a glorified well done, which you get enough of from the lads sitting around in the flight school and over the radio as you taxi back.

- If the flight is good with a couple of mistakes but the pilot is still elated as to be expected, then you drag them into a stuffy little room and pick them up on all the things they could have done better you'll destroy the experience and their newly gained confidence.

I'm a little unusual in that I'm a perfectionist and I like to be told every single little thing I've got wrong, so I wouldn't be fussed if my instructor decided to debrief formally.

The whole point of going solo though is to use your own skills, knowledge and judgment to complete a successful circuit. Surely if you're on the first solo you're at the standard where you don't need an instructor to tell you if you cocked up, or what you could have done better?

Yes a debrief after the first solo is mandatory, it consists of " You did it!!!!! "

Picking fly **** out of pepper is not needed after the first solo.

Any instructor who teaches based only on what " the book " says is not an instructor they are robots and better suited to getting a job as a bureaucrat in government where one only crosses the T's and dots the I's.

The first solo is a once in a life time experience and should not be tainted by debriefing, if the student wants to ask a question about what they did that is fine, then you advise.

Stevie Wonder could tell you that, better progress is made with most aspects of the course with instuction not commentary.

Part of the skill of being an instructor is to engage with a student so they can recognise and openly discuss mistakes without destroying confidence.

You are either a potential fiction author or in need of a new flying school!

You have asked for comments on this subject, I am commenting from experience as a flying instructor who has learned to teach, not be a robot.

Good post revision Chuck! De briefing is also about putting the student in the appropriate place and enviroment to ask such a question and give such advice.

Are you noticing how little support for your views you are getting here?

I'm desperately trying to keep this purely on a professional basis, but so far you still haven't laid out why your method is better than anyone elses. You've just made short, one line, narky replies to people who don't agree.

Lay your case out and stand by your convictions. Or simply clarify any misunderstanding I or anyothers might have for your viewpoint.

Robotic instructors do just that-provide commentary rather than instruction. You could programme a robot to say" That was a **** landing" but you will never get a robot to tell you how to improve a **** landing!

I am and it makes the debate so much more interesting but you see the difference between you and me is that I know through many years of managerial and instructional experience that weak people always like everyone around them to agree with them!

I don't think you are quite getting it.

Chuck is saying that someone who simply follows the text book and doesn't actually do any teaching, just lecturing, is a poor FI.

You are saying that an FI who doesn't do any teaching, just critcising is also poor.

You're both correct, but I think you are misunderstanding what Chuck is actually saying.

Slavish devotion to a system, is poor teaching. Any teacher who has even a modicum of talent knows that sometimes you have to think on your feet a bit and do things differently to what the manual says. Teaching people is not like following a checklist. It is a good idea to have a checklist to ensure that nothing gets missed, but sometimes the order of that checklist can be adjusted.

I am trying hard.

You just can't stop yourself making the little barbs can you...

SAS i am getting it and I agree with what you say-Instructing is a mixture of many skills-there needs to be formailty and informality but rule books are neccesary in all walks of life. It's when and how you interpret the rules that decides if you are a pain in the arse or a reasonable instructor.

I am a great believer in 'fair comment' that is why I havn't made one post about you in the style of your earlier posts about me.

I don't mind criticism, the more the better!

Pull what, from reading your posts here I can see a very close resemblance between you and DFC.

We are galaxies apart in our teaching methods.

I guess that is fair though as we all have our own methods and in the final analysis our success or lack thereof as teachers will be determined by how much money we can command as teachers.

If you as a teacher are not worth top pay you will just be another cookie cutter instructor in the industry scraping the bottom of the barrel for enough money to exist on.
I was never short of clients willing to pay top dollar to learn.

Chuck-- I respect your experience, knowledge and opinion and everyone else's, no matter who they are, thats why I havnt told the one guy I was instructing before he was born or mentioned to another, " what would you know about instructing you have only just gone first solo?"

Oh and about DFC, I like the way he sticks to his guns and never trys to insult anybody, yet many try to insult him. It is a shame that many on here seem to think that having a different opinion means you dislike someone or have to feel the need to try and rubbish them. Surely as professional instructors dealing with disimilar views is basic human factors that should be very simple to deal with?

:rolleyes:

That's one way to kill off any last vestige of respect. "I was teaching before you were born." Uh huh, that's nice for you.

In many cases I will respect that, certainly in Chuck's case and others I know with whom I've taught alongside, but despite my age, I'm not exactly a newbie in this business, however, why not give us the benefit of your experience and put us youngsters in our place?

Whilst I often don't agree with DFC, at least he explains why he holds the views he does and I respect that. He goes into detail and puts a case forward. Maybe you'd like to follow his example?

You keep trying to make my posts into something that they are not. I do not need to put anyone in their place, thats not my style or intention, and every post I make is made with the benefit of my experience (obviously) in the same way that everyone elses is.

please read this line again

I do by giving a post FS de-brief-its you that likes casual brevity!

Most people will have lost the will to live after reading this far into this thread, but I'll carry on regardless, even though I'm bored now.

I understand that you do a debrief after a first solo, what I don't understand is why. Why is doing a formal, sit down debrief where you start to explain the intricacies of the techlog and command decision making (as mentioned by yourself in the other thread) better than what we are all describing here, where the debrief consists of;
"How did that go?"
"Great!"
"Any problems you want to talk about?"
"No"
"I didn't notice anything, let's go and celebrate."

All done as you walk back to the clubhouse.

I then get them to fill in the techlog (which I've explained in a proper brief previously), hand them their certificate, take a picture to go on the wall/website and in some places hand them a cheap bottle of fizz as a "well done."

If you've got more flying to do yourself, then you do that, if not you drag them for a celebratory pint (Usually an orange juice and lemonade for me as I'm driving home) and you have a chat about everything, usually involving a blow by blow account of the flight.

That's what I do and I've already said why I follow this method. So, what's your method and why do you follow it?

Which I reckon is not alot.

I notice in another thread you claim to be a FIC instructor what ever that is. If you actually had anything to do with FIC's you would know the term is FII and FIE for the examiner.

If you were such an animal the questions I posed earlier on would be like water off a ducks back. A copy and paste job from your course notes.

If you are a FII could you please explain the process in becoming a FII?

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.

*"sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed".