Initial training : Slip Yes ……Slip no
Thread Starter
Initial training : Slip Yes ……Slip no
Consider a single-engine airplane , if you need to increase your descent rate during a simulated engine failure during initial training phase …..
I see 2 schools of thought :
1first : never never NEVER use and teach slip technics to loose altitude If high , during initial training …is it to dangerous for the student Pilot …and it is possibile to manage in bad way during solo flight and stall /spin can occur.
2 second ) slip techics is a important skill to learn …..even during initial training……….of course , the student Pilot must not use frequently slip technics every time is to high….but using the slip tech during simulated engine fail is a important task to learn ."……
I appreciate all opinions tks
I see 2 schools of thought :
1first : never never NEVER use and teach slip technics to loose altitude If high , during initial training …is it to dangerous for the student Pilot …and it is possibile to manage in bad way during solo flight and stall /spin can occur.
2 second ) slip techics is a important skill to learn …..even during initial training……….of course , the student Pilot must not use frequently slip technics every time is to high….but using the slip tech during simulated engine fail is a important task to learn ."……
I appreciate all opinions tks
If you have to lose altitude before landing, you can always do S-turns, i.e., flying a zig zag pattern to increase the distance you fly before you reach your landing spot.
I was taught to crab in order to deal with strong crosswinds on approach then to slip for the actual landing/touchdown, but it never came up during training for an engine failure. In the latter case, it was always find a safe place to land, then do your best to land there safely.
A strong crosswind will typically have a strong headwind component as well, so your speed relative to the ground is decreased.
https://pilotheadquarters.com/crossw...hould-you-use/
The amount of rudder you can apply for a slip determines the maximum crosswind you can handle when landing.
I’m not an instructor nor an expert.
https://pilotworkshop.com/tips/slipping/
I was taught to crab in order to deal with strong crosswinds on approach then to slip for the actual landing/touchdown, but it never came up during training for an engine failure. In the latter case, it was always find a safe place to land, then do your best to land there safely.
A strong crosswind will typically have a strong headwind component as well, so your speed relative to the ground is decreased.
https://pilotheadquarters.com/crossw...hould-you-use/
The amount of rudder you can apply for a slip determines the maximum crosswind you can handle when landing.
I’m not an instructor nor an expert.
https://pilotworkshop.com/tips/slipping/
Is slipping a good technique for losing altitude quickly on final approach? Is it best to slip to the left or right (or does it matter)?"
“Let’s back up just a little and talk about slips. There are two kinds of slips. One is a side slip and the other is a forward slip…
To lose altitude quickly you need a forward slip. To induce an effective forward slip, the pilot needs to drop one wing and apply a large amount of opposite rudder. Remember to keep the nose well below the horizon during the slip. Since you now have crossed controls, the last thing you want is a stall at low altitude. In addition, the airspeed indicator may be inaccurate as it is not traveling parallel to the direction of flight. Another reason to keep that nose down and maintain an extra airspeed margin is that you have a higher descent rate than normal and it will take some energy, as in extra airspeed, to fix that before touchdown.
You can slip with or without flaps unless prohibited by your Pilot’s Operating Handbook.
To lose altitude quickly you need a forward slip. To induce an effective forward slip, the pilot needs to drop one wing and apply a large amount of opposite rudder. Remember to keep the nose well below the horizon during the slip. Since you now have crossed controls, the last thing you want is a stall at low altitude. In addition, the airspeed indicator may be inaccurate as it is not traveling parallel to the direction of flight. Another reason to keep that nose down and maintain an extra airspeed margin is that you have a higher descent rate than normal and it will take some energy, as in extra airspeed, to fix that before touchdown.
You can slip with or without flaps unless prohibited by your Pilot’s Operating Handbook.
Thread Starter
tks visibility3miles.....but my question is about a simulated engine fail in a single eng. ...... if a slip can be incuded in training task in a safe manner or it is better to cancel it in a training programme ???
Would slip training be given for gliders and sailplanes?
If you plan your descent to arrive at a Low Key position at an appropriate height for your aeroplane then all you have to do is maintain the aspect to the aiming point. Use flap to increase the rate of descent to bring the aiming point towards you. If you don't have flaps then slipping will acheive the same thing.
They shouldn’t solo if they can’t demonstrate a half decent forward slip.
What if they have a flap malfunction on their solo? Divert to a 14,000’ runway?
Student pilots should be able to land full/partial/no flap in a designated runway area.
What if they have a flap malfunction on their solo? Divert to a 14,000’ runway?
Student pilots should be able to land full/partial/no flap in a designated runway area.
I haven't tried it in the real aircraft but you could sideslip the 747 simulator just like a Tiger Moth. But I guess you would need to know how much in order to protect the podded engines. I used to practise deadstick landings in the sim - rather good fun!
Having used Cessnas a lot, a forward slip with flaps extended is prohibited on several of their models. With that in the back of your mind you need to look elsewhere to adjust the descent profile for a forced landing. As Whopity said, flaps are a good tool to use and we trained the students to get to an appropriate 1000' point while aiming a third of the way down the strip, then use flaps to adjust as needed and bring the touchdown point nearer to the beginning of the strip.
Once you're in an actual emergency situation, anything goes of course. With that in mind I might use a forward slip if needed. I'm not too fussed about using the aircraft again if I can at least walk away from it in one piece.
The trouble is that if you train a student to use the manouvre on a regular basis, the student will continue to use it and may get him/her/itself into trouble later on. I am basing this on teaching on an integrated course. The situation is different in the gliding world and may be different in a strictly PPL/LAPL environment.
Once you're in an actual emergency situation, anything goes of course. With that in mind I might use a forward slip if needed. I'm not too fussed about using the aircraft again if I can at least walk away from it in one piece.
The trouble is that if you train a student to use the manouvre on a regular basis, the student will continue to use it and may get him/her/itself into trouble later on. I am basing this on teaching on an integrated course. The situation is different in the gliding world and may be different in a strictly PPL/LAPL environment.
During my initial training on an equivalent to the CPL general handling test I was given an engine failure over the largest field on the Isle of Wight ..my normal technique left me way too high and having been told never to turn away nor taught to side slip I failed miserably.
I later got into SE instructing and finally glider instructing including aerobatics and mountain flying.
on ALL of the gliders I flew it was impossible to stall when established in a full side slip..may be possible on other types but…the difficulty is a coordinated reduction of side slip without increasing the approach speed too much. I’ve actually kept sideslip on into the flare..took it off then put it back on on the ground as I was running out of field during a national competition.
I also tugged at a mountain site in a Raylle which required landing down wind/ up slope and not the longest strip of tarmac. The final turn (150ft) and approach again too the flare was with varying amount of side slip but with power to protect the engine from shock cooling.
Like many things in life one needs to find a decent instructor and practice at a safe height.
I later got into SE instructing and finally glider instructing including aerobatics and mountain flying.
on ALL of the gliders I flew it was impossible to stall when established in a full side slip..may be possible on other types but…the difficulty is a coordinated reduction of side slip without increasing the approach speed too much. I’ve actually kept sideslip on into the flare..took it off then put it back on on the ground as I was running out of field during a national competition.
I also tugged at a mountain site in a Raylle which required landing down wind/ up slope and not the longest strip of tarmac. The final turn (150ft) and approach again too the flare was with varying amount of side slip but with power to protect the engine from shock cooling.
Like many things in life one needs to find a decent instructor and practice at a safe height.
Side slipping is effective and simple to apply and safe. How effective it is depends on the rudder size as this can limit the amount of bank achievable and therefore can require a curving approach. Having said that the curving slipping approach is the more comfortable. The bonus of the slide slip is the steep descent achievable and that you can start and stop it at will to control the rate of descent. Of course it requires training and practice as do all manoeuvres.
I think Cessna have always regretted introducing the 'no slipping with flap' in the pilots manual of certain models (the legal department at it again). Cessna later withdrew this demand for later models but the idea has stuck and is applied as a general rule.
I think Cessna have always regretted introducing the 'no slipping with flap' in the pilots manual of certain models (the legal department at it again). Cessna later withdrew this demand for later models but the idea has stuck and is applied as a general rule.
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Something to bear in mind is that in a real forced landing situation you will likely be stressed. If you're wrongly positioned to the extent that you'll overshoot with full flap, you'll likely be very stressed.
If you've never practiced continuing an off airport approach below 500ft, you'll also be in an unfamiliar situation.
Is this the right time to be flying at low level with crossed controls and a potentially unreliable ASI?
If you've a shedload of experience, then perhaps, but I'd suggest that this is a good way for a low hours pilot to get into an unrecoverable situation.
In a real world emergency, I'd rather hit the far hedge under control than stall with crossed controls at 100ft.
If you've never practiced continuing an off airport approach below 500ft, you'll also be in an unfamiliar situation.
Is this the right time to be flying at low level with crossed controls and a potentially unreliable ASI?
If you've a shedload of experience, then perhaps, but I'd suggest that this is a good way for a low hours pilot to get into an unrecoverable situation.
In a real world emergency, I'd rather hit the far hedge under control than stall with crossed controls at 100ft.
In a real world emergency, I'd rather hit the far hedge under control than stall with crossed controls at 100ft.
14th May 2024 17:21
14th May 2024 17:21
In my opinion if you cannot handle a full rudder sideslip then you don't know how to fly the aircraft. Perhaps people who think slips are dangerous don't understand the difference between a slip and a skid.
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Slips are a tool, nothing more, nothing less. Like any tool, you have to know how to use them properly - this includes not only knowing how to use it, but when to and when not to. If we teach students to never use the tool, we rob them of a potentially life-saving maneuver later in their career. If we exclusively teach them to use it, we rob them of the ability to think outside the box or to experiment with different techniques.
So, if a slip during a deadstick approach will be the difference between making the field or not making the field, then why limit our students? Certainly during training and after the fact, discuss the different options that were open to them. Did they manage it perfectly? Cool, what would we do if we hadn’t done it perfectly? Did we sideslip? What could we do to put ourselves in a better position next time? Did we do a S-turn? Awesome, but what are the benefits and disadvantages of doing that low level in an area which likely has not been cleared of obstacles like the airport environment and for which you might at best have had a cursory look at the area?
So, if a slip during a deadstick approach will be the difference between making the field or not making the field, then why limit our students? Certainly during training and after the fact, discuss the different options that were open to them. Did they manage it perfectly? Cool, what would we do if we hadn’t done it perfectly? Did we sideslip? What could we do to put ourselves in a better position next time? Did we do a S-turn? Awesome, but what are the benefits and disadvantages of doing that low level in an area which likely has not been cleared of obstacles like the airport environment and for which you might at best have had a cursory look at the area?
The problem, in my opinion, is that many instructors learned on C172s themselves, they took that advice as a prohibition, and then took that prohibition to other types. I did my UK CPL on an Arrow, and was taught that sideslipping was prohibited. Initially, until I showed the instructor the POH !
G
So far as I know this statement is incorrect. Sideslip is DISCOURAGED with FULL flap in some Cessna models. I don't recall any type where it is prohibited, but happy to be corrected.
The placard to be fixed adjacent the flap indicator; AVOID SLIPS WITH FLAP EXTENDED
However below is the text from SECTION 4 NORMAL PROCEDURES
Crosswind landing
..........If flap settings greater than 20 degrees are used in sideslips with full rudder deflection, some elevator oscillation may be felt at normal approach speeds. However, this does not affect control of the airplane .......................
Later it was explained by the then retired chief test pilot in an interview; the placard wording was at the insistence of the legal department but doesn't truly reflect the explanation to the pilot in section 4. However the placard wording has become gospel and preached around the world.
Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 15th May 2024 at 10:15.
1. Personal opinion on if sideslipping should be taught: yes (and I do so - depending on aircraft and not necessarily solely for forced landing situations. In some aircraft, competency sideslipping should be a requirement for normal operation - eg Decaths, Citabrias, Pitts, Cubs etc)
2. Aircraft restrictions on sideslipping? Some aircraft may have comments on this in POH - eg some will either restrict or will recommend avoiding sideslips with certain flap extensions (some models of Cessna eg 180), others may (eg PA28) caution against prolonged sideslipping (eg for more than Xsecs or for more than X000ft altitude loss) not for aerodynamic reasons but due possibility of fuel starvation. The Piper Sport states in the POH that any sideslipping is not to be used on any approach/landing (irrespective of flap) and then recommends check flights/training on type to include sideslips in landing configuration...
Obviously teach student to follow POH and manufacturer's guidance.... although in case of sideslipping in a forced landing due engine failure, I would say any restrictions due fuel starvation no longer really apply
2. Aircraft restrictions on sideslipping? Some aircraft may have comments on this in POH - eg some will either restrict or will recommend avoiding sideslips with certain flap extensions (some models of Cessna eg 180), others may (eg PA28) caution against prolonged sideslipping (eg for more than Xsecs or for more than X000ft altitude loss) not for aerodynamic reasons but due possibility of fuel starvation. The Piper Sport states in the POH that any sideslipping is not to be used on any approach/landing (irrespective of flap) and then recommends check flights/training on type to include sideslips in landing configuration...
Obviously teach student to follow POH and manufacturer's guidance.... although in case of sideslipping in a forced landing due engine failure, I would say any restrictions due fuel starvation no longer really apply
Last edited by jonkster; 15th May 2024 at 10:27.