LAPL FI(A) and ratings
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LAPL FI(A) and ratings
I am appealing to whoever has some experience or information about the following, have contacted EASA but they will not answer, they refer every query to be adressed to national CAA's, and different CAA's in different countries have different answers; I am posting this to inquire whether someone has faced a similar issue to get some feedback.
Regarding a ppl pilot who has years of experience with his private aerobatic aircraft, and has an aerobatic extension. Recently done a LAPL FI(A)
Such pilot has been requested, together with his co owners of aitcraft, to do introductory aerobatic flights on an occasional basis.
Introductory flight are regulated by EU decree 965/2012, which however gives freedom to national CAA's to modify requirements ( Why does EASA issue legislations to be endorsed by European Parliament to become national law, it then there will be a national regulation superseding it is a mystery).
To make a story short:
European decree 965/2012 allows for anyone holding a licence, current, with the necessary rating, to do întroductory flights on an occasional basis, within a specified distance from departing aerodrome, against compensation limited to cost sharing.
In an overrule of such law, in this case Italian CAA (ENAC), there has a protocol issued as 032/DG 7/11/2014, which redefines these conditions:
One must be FI(A)
Aircraft must be operated within a structure ( ATO, DTO, or non profit sporting association)
Aircraft must be in CAMO
All but one condition does pose a problem.
He is FI(A) but LAPL with aerobatic rating,
ENAC states that he is therefore not allowed to carry introductory flights with an FI (LAPL)
This would be contradicting all logic whereby if a LAPL pilot (with aerobatic rating) is allowed to get such rating, and has an FI(A) for LAPL , restricted or not, he should be able not only to become aerobatic instructor ( Not the issue here) but also be allowed to carry out such introductory flights.
ENAC at this point in time rejecting the request. LAPL FI is limited to LAPL duties only. No extension as aerobatic instructor rating, no introductory flights.
APL FI(A) with aerobatic extension does not qualify for occasional introductory fligjhts. No hope of any clarification from EASA unfortunately.
Any clarifications are welcome, It is a shame to the whole aviation community that EASA does not stand behind it's regulations, that such regulation are written in legalese language,redundant open to interpretations ( FCL's are a 1200 pages + document), Europen parliament endorses it into law, and then national states supersede their own laws with rewritten rules.
Any comments welcome
Regarding a ppl pilot who has years of experience with his private aerobatic aircraft, and has an aerobatic extension. Recently done a LAPL FI(A)
Such pilot has been requested, together with his co owners of aitcraft, to do introductory aerobatic flights on an occasional basis.
Introductory flight are regulated by EU decree 965/2012, which however gives freedom to national CAA's to modify requirements ( Why does EASA issue legislations to be endorsed by European Parliament to become national law, it then there will be a national regulation superseding it is a mystery).
To make a story short:
European decree 965/2012 allows for anyone holding a licence, current, with the necessary rating, to do întroductory flights on an occasional basis, within a specified distance from departing aerodrome, against compensation limited to cost sharing.
In an overrule of such law, in this case Italian CAA (ENAC), there has a protocol issued as 032/DG 7/11/2014, which redefines these conditions:
One must be FI(A)
Aircraft must be operated within a structure ( ATO, DTO, or non profit sporting association)
Aircraft must be in CAMO
All but one condition does pose a problem.
He is FI(A) but LAPL with aerobatic rating,
ENAC states that he is therefore not allowed to carry introductory flights with an FI (LAPL)
This would be contradicting all logic whereby if a LAPL pilot (with aerobatic rating) is allowed to get such rating, and has an FI(A) for LAPL , restricted or not, he should be able not only to become aerobatic instructor ( Not the issue here) but also be allowed to carry out such introductory flights.
ENAC at this point in time rejecting the request. LAPL FI is limited to LAPL duties only. No extension as aerobatic instructor rating, no introductory flights.
APL FI(A) with aerobatic extension does not qualify for occasional introductory fligjhts. No hope of any clarification from EASA unfortunately.
Any clarifications are welcome, It is a shame to the whole aviation community that EASA does not stand behind it's regulations, that such regulation are written in legalese language,redundant open to interpretations ( FCL's are a 1200 pages + document), Europen parliament endorses it into law, and then national states supersede their own laws with rewritten rules.
Any comments welcome
Last edited by markkal; 21st Jan 2022 at 10:27.
The privileges of the FI(A) LAPL are to instruct for the LAPL only. However if the same instructor obtains a CRI Certificate the privileges are extended:
(a) The privileges of a CRI are to instruct for:
(1) the issue, revalidation or renewal of a class or type rating for single-pilot aeroplanes, except for single-pilot high performance complex aeroplanes, when the privileges sought by the applicant are to fly in single-pilot operations;
(2) a towing or aerobatic rating for the aeroplane category, provided the CRI holds the relevant rating and has demonstrated the ability to instruct for that rating to an FI qualified in accordance with FCL.905.FI(i).
(1) the issue, revalidation or renewal of a class or type rating for single-pilot aeroplanes, except for single-pilot high performance complex aeroplanes, when the privileges sought by the applicant are to fly in single-pilot operations;
(2) a towing or aerobatic rating for the aeroplane category, provided the CRI holds the relevant rating and has demonstrated the ability to instruct for that rating to an FI qualified in accordance with FCL.905.FI(i).
Gaining a Instructor Certificate (Rating) in whatever class doesn't alter the pilots ordinary privileges as a pilot: PPL or CPL. The restrictions of a FI are applicable to the instructing only: e.g. training for the Aerobatic Rating. I don't see that you have a problem with the 'air experience flight' to which you refer.
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Thank you both for your reply, and by the way all the best to you ( we know each other, you've both been of great help in the past) for this coming year.
I am attaching the relevant national regulation (032/DG 7/11/2014) where it says that one has to be an FIA) to carry out occasional "air experience flights". This regulation differs from european decree EU Lex 965/2012. The point is the disagreement over the issue of a LAPL FI with the relevenat rating;
In case you cannot open the attachment here is te relevant link ( In italian only )
https://www.enac.gov.it/ContentManag...32-2014_DG.pdf
I am attaching the relevant national regulation (032/DG 7/11/2014) where it says that one has to be an FIA) to carry out occasional "air experience flights". This regulation differs from european decree EU Lex 965/2012. The point is the disagreement over the issue of a LAPL FI with the relevenat rating;
In case you cannot open the attachment here is te relevant link ( In italian only )
https://www.enac.gov.it/ContentManag...32-2014_DG.pdf
Last edited by markkal; 23rd Jan 2022 at 09:47.
I had guessed thats what it said and note that CRI is included. A LAPL FI should be able to obtain a CRI certificate without doing anything else though some administrations can be a little difficult on this one. Seems odd that having done a 30 hour course, to get the CRI some administrations want the candidate to repeat 3 hours of it! I think its well worth a LAPL FI obtaining the CRI at the same time.
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I had guessed thats what it said and note that CRI is included. A LAPL FI should be able to obtain a CRI certificate without doing anything else though some administrations can be a little difficult on this one. Seems odd that having done a 30 hour course, to get the CRI some administrations want the candidate to repeat 3 hours of it! I think its well worth a LAPL FI obtaining the CRI at the same time.
You are raising an issue about the CRI, which unfortunately did not go so smoothly.
One acquaintance I know, active aerobatic competitor, has a Cap10 trainer besides his single seater, and wanted to use it for aerobatic training.
He completed the FI(A) LAPL, and being restricted FI up to 100 hrs, he went for the aditional aerobatic CRI.
In Italy they had him complete additional 7 hrs training on top of the 3 required, at the end 10 hrs.; Of course it is always good to get additional training, but that should be based on a personal assessment rather than arbitrary decisions. I avoid posting names of people and ATO's involved, but would be happy to send you a PM.
2 other fine chaps with loads of experience, circumvented the italian system few years ago and went to Lugano switzerland (AVILU), there it was straightforward and they also got useful ground training for a full week, whereas in Italy that does not happen, you are directed to online self learning.
And they both completed the cursus within the flight hours requirements.
The first applicant got some problems to have CRI endorsed in the licence, but at the end he succeeded, problem solved. So depending where you go you get a different treatment. Old habits die hard.
Markal, Nice to talk to you again. The problems of no standardisation in Europe. In the UK we are now in a bigger mess because govt departments are interfering with regulation and their leaders don't know their arses from their elbows!
