Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Flying Instructors & Examiners
Reload this Page >

Teaching Performance at PPL level

Flying Instructors & Examiners A place for instructors to communicate with one another because some of them get a bit tired of the attitude that instructing is the lowest form of aviation, as seems to prevail on some of the other forums!

Teaching Performance at PPL level

Old 10th Jun 2021, 12:45
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bristol, England
Age: 62
Posts: 1,636
Teaching Performance at PPL level

Hi all, I'm just going through some PPL questions and am finding that the calculation questions in Performance use factors taken from the old CAA Safety Sense leaflet which is so out of date it refers to ANGRs and Perf E. There is a table of factors for grass etc. which in many cases does not correlate to EU OPS and the present Class B operation. Do you still teach to the factors in the Safety Sense leaflet?
Alex Whittingham is offline  
Old 10th Jun 2021, 14:36
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Bush
Posts: 13
CAP1535, Skyway Code, page 47. The document was last revised in March 2021 so one would hope it is accurate.

Extracts from the Skyway code are given to students in the new UK e-Exams too.
Bushdodge is online now  
Old 10th Jun 2021, 16:10
  #3 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bristol, England
Age: 62
Posts: 1,636
Thank you, useful document. Its the factors on page 49 (same as the old safety sense leaflet) that I am trying to reconcile with Class B in EU-OPS, one would have thought they would be the same. The 'general safety factor' on take-off of 1.33 is not something I recognise and some of the surface factors are different. It seems odd to teach one set of safety factors in PPL then another set at CPL/ATPL. Will research further
Alex Whittingham is offline  
Old 10th Jun 2021, 22:40
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Scotland
Age: 40
Posts: 99
The 1.33 take-off factor is referenced in CAT.POL.A.400 for performance class C aircraft, isn't class B Turbo props? Class C is reciprocating engines. The 1.33 then refers to twin engines, but the safety sense is saying you should use those safety factors even for singles or PPL's.
Not sure the other safety factors are different from those mentioned in Part-NCO.
Edgington is offline  
Old 10th Jun 2021, 23:16
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 454
PPL studies have never involved a knowledge of commercial operations. The limitations and guidance for private flights including take-off and landing are found only by reference to the Aircraft Manual/POH. Certain performance data is not available in many aircraft manuals though, especially very early ones, but it is not a requirement to write up an operational limitation as a supplement and have it approved. Amendments to aircraft manuals particularly operating data is sometimes required by the CAA to be inserted as an amendment to the POH.

The guidance given for take off and landing in the old but still current Safety Sense leaflet, in my view, is excellent and has a particular purpose; to act as guidance when, and only when, the aircraft manual does not. The advice is always generic and can be described, at best, as putting the pilot on the safe side of wrong, however never compulsory.

I don't think there are two conflicting standards. The additional limitations imposed for commercial ops are there to deal with the sometimes intense external pressures that a commercial pilot can be subject to.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 10th Jun 2021, 23:31
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Scotland
Age: 40
Posts: 99
Originally Posted by Fl1ingfrog View Post
PPL studies have never involved a knowledge of commercial operations. The limitations and guidance for private flights including take-off and landing are found only by reference to the Aircraft Manual/POH. Certain performance data is not available in many aircraft manuals though, especially very early ones, but it is not a requirement to write up an operational limitation as a supplement and have it approved. Amendments to aircraft manuals particularly operating data is sometimes required by the CAA to be inserted as an amendment to the POH.

The guidance given for take off and landing in the old but still current Safety Sense leaflet, in my view, is excellent and has a particular purpose; to act as guidance when, and only when, the aircraft manual does not. The advice is always generic and can be described, at best, as putting the pilot on the safe side of wrong, however never compulsory.

I don't think there are two conflicting standards. The additional limitations imposed for commercial ops are there to deal with the sometimes intense external pressures that a commercial pilot can be subject to.
All good points, I would agree with you.
The problem would seem to be the CAA are quoting certain things in the answers to certain questions in the PPL E-Exams. The CAA shouldn't be asking things that aren't in the syllabus or things that aren't referenced in law, that would be unfair.
We were taught to use 1.33 factor for take-off, but it took a while to find where that came from. I was taught in Holland so the safety factor isn't UK only, but must have been referenced elsewhere. Like I said in my answer I think Alex classed PPL as Perf B while they are more Class C, for Class C there is reference to 1.33 take-off factor.
Edgington is offline  
Old 11th Jun 2021, 00:04
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 454
The CAA shouldn't be asking things that aren't in the syllabus or things that aren't referenced in law, that would be unfair.
Well many Safety Sense leaflets are referenced in the various published training manuals that ATOs/DTOs commonly use. There are many issues that a pilot faces that cannot be dealt with by 'law' and has to be resolved by pilot judgement. Law cannot define judgement. A very large number of flying clubs operate at airfields with sloping grass runways and where 1.33 for take-off and 1.4 for landing cannot ever be achieved. Private pilots operate from and regularly visit private strips that can be challenging and to me it is reasonable that authorities provide good guidance. The Australian CAA and the US FAA also provide extensive support material. If all this is to be considered essential reading then why shouldn't the content be questioned in exams?

Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 11th Jun 2021 at 00:17.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 11th Jun 2021, 10:27
  #8 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bristol, England
Age: 62
Posts: 1,636
Class C is for aircraft with reciprocating engines and with either an MOPSC of more than nine or a maximum take-off mass exceeding 5 700 kg. Light piston singles and twins would be certified under CS.23 and operated in Performance Class B, a Class for aeroplanes powered by propeller engines with an MOPSC of nine or less and a maximum take-off mass of 5 700 kg or less.

The CAA factors come from pre-JAA days when different Performance Groups A to E existed, the TORA/TODA/ASDA factoring requirements in a modern Class B operation are quite different.

The 1.33 factor undoubtably originates from the old CAA Performance Group E although it may have been retained by EASA for any big piston aircraft still flying commercially. Safety Sense leaflet 07 even refers to ANGRs and specifically mentions Group E.

The Air Navigation (General) Regulations 1993 said at 10 1. (b) The distance required by the aeroplane to attain a height of 50 feet, with all power units operating within the maximum take off power conditions specified, when multiplied by a factor of 1:33 does not exceed the emergency distance available at the aerodrome at which the take off is to be made.

The whole thing looks a bit out of date to me. Seems a bit odd to be teaching factors at PPL based on a UK regulation that is 20 years plus out of date and then teaching different factors for the same aircraft at CPL/ATPL. Do we know who is in charge of this section of the PPL syllabus at the CAA?
Alex Whittingham is offline  
Old 11th Jun 2021, 13:11
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Here and there
Posts: 510
which in many cases does not correlate to EU OPS
EU-OPS disappeared when EASA Air Operations was introduced (IR-OPS). Within the UK this has now become Retained EU Regulation 965/2012 and associated AMC/GM. Annex IV (Part-CAT) specifies the performance criteria to be applied for commercial operations when operating under this section of the regulation and would be applicable to those studying towards a commercial licence; see CAT.POL.A.300 et seq for Performance B aeroplanes. Applicable regulations when operating Part 21 aircraft non-commercially sit within Air Operations Annex VII (NCO.POL.110) which are somewhat vague.

UK CAA safety factors recommended for private pilots appear to be derived from previous/current AN(G)R 2006 Schedule 1 (found within CAP 393) as published in Safety Sense Leaflet 07c and duplicated in the CAA Skyway Code.

ifitaint...
ifitaintboeing is offline  
Old 11th Jun 2021, 14:10
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 25,886
The table labelled ‘performance changes’ on p46 of SkyWay Code V3 shows landing distance factors of x1.1 for ‘1000 ft increase in elevation’ and for ‘10C increase in temperature’, whereas the latest PPL e-Exam workbook has been amended with landing distance factors of x1.05 for these conditions.

The PPL e-Exam Flight Performance and Planning Qs and As have been checked by CAAi against the 1.05 factor and are correct.

I have pointed out the anomaly to the SkyWay code editors.
BEagle is offline  
Old 11th Jun 2021, 14:51
  #11 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bristol, England
Age: 62
Posts: 1,636
Thank you Beags. What is a PPL e-exam workbook and how can I get one? I have looked on the PPL e-exams page and its not jumping out at me.
Alex Whittingham is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.