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How long should records be maintained?

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How long should records be maintained?

Old 17th May 2021, 17:57
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How long should records be maintained?

Can an applicant for a licence be expected to have kept a ratings page from 1995? as i recall in those days, the revalidation of the rating was by a stamp in the logbook.
The CAA has asked for the ratings page as part of the conversion process from a brown licence to a blue licence.
unfortunately , the relevant log book cannot be found, but being 25 years ago, and several house moves , i dont think they should need this piece of information.

Last edited by shorehamite; 17th May 2021 at 18:08.
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Old 18th May 2021, 06:47
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CAA lost log book requirements

Please read carefully the information given above. There's too much to paste here but it involves 2 interviews in person with the CAA (and payment of some fees, naturally). At least you're in the same county?
As far as I am aware, log books and other documentary evidence should be kept for your lifetime. I've still got all my log books going back to 1982 and my old brown licence, as well as subsequent ones. I've moved house several times in that interval. I know things can go astray and they might not appear important at the time or (in one case I know of) they might get burned by a jealous ex-wife...

TOO
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Old 18th May 2021, 11:49
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The CAA has asked for the ratings page as part of the conversion process from a brown licence to a blue licence.
You are correct that In 1995 the method was a simple stamp in your logbook. All that did was confirm that you had in the previous 13 months satisfied the requirements to act as PIC on 'Group A' aeroplanes. Different from today there wasn't a separate rating. Your licence itself is still a valid document. The stamp in your log book did not revalidate/renew (to use modern parlance) anything but was only a simple statement of fact and there was no requirement for the CAA to be informed yet alone 26 years later. The licence itself stipulated the privileges for which the licence was issued: i.e. Group A aeroplanes. The licence tells the CAA all that they need to know. So, in short, this strikes me as being nothing more than the 'standard letter disease' common place nowadays..

To come up to date you need to attend a DTO or ATO who will advise what you personally need to do to fly PIC on what is now called SEPL aeroplanes again. At the completion of the recommended training you will undertake a renewal test for a SEPL. That done the paperwork is completed (the 'save a tree' campaign long forgotten) under the guidance of the HoT. The relevant fee must be paid and you will be issued a brand new piece of paper (the modern licence) in the current format. This will include a section with the new SEPL annotated together with it's expiry date (24 months from the date of the skill test).

You are not applying for a 'new' licence. The lost log book procedure quoted above is not relevant to you, from what you have told us.
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Old 18th May 2021, 18:49
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Thank you for the information, and excellent knowledge.
I think the people dealing with these matters have no idea about aeroplanes or pilots, just doing what it says on their computer screen.

one more thing, the old medical was a class 3, do i have to get a class 2, or can i make a "driving standard" declaration?
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Old 18th May 2021, 19:21
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The Class 3 has morphed into the current Class 2. Yes, you can fly using the medical declaration if you wish. At the moment this is for a limited period only. What you knew as an aeroplane such as a PA28 or C150/!152/172 etc is currently no longer simply an aeroplane (sic) but a Part-121 type. Soon, I'm sure, this idiocy will be scrapped, it is left over from EASA, and by the time you complete the process may not affect you, If not changed Part-21 types will not be flyable using a Medical Declaration only non-part 21 types. A Medical Declaration has many restrictions to consider and may only be used in UK airspace.
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Old 19th May 2021, 19:29
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The ratings page is part of the licence of which the CAA should hold a record. Around 2008 the CAA were converting all their Microfiche records to pdf format. This was part of a government requirement for Electronic Record Management. I also recall from my days of Air Law that the requirement to retain a log book was for 5 years from the date of the last entry. Art 235 now specifies 2 years from the date of the last entry. The 13 month stamp was merely a certificate of revalidation and did not constitute a ratings page.

In 1995 a PPL would have included all ratings in Section XII of the licence. Typically, single engine aeroplanes (self launching motor gliders) and single engine aeroplanes (landplanes) with weights not exceeding 5700 Kgs. + night, imc etc.

The requirement for the holder to retain a licence simply says for a reasonable period Art 235 however; the CAA has a responsibility to retain details of all licences it has issued.

Last edited by Whopity; 19th May 2021 at 19:58.
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Old 20th May 2021, 11:59
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Many thanks to all with great information and knowledge, hopefully i have now provided the CAA with everything they need for licence re-issue with a new SEP date.
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Old 29th May 2021, 19:14
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I Decided to ring the CAA to see how the application was going, they said it had referred to a senior member of staff.
The person on the phone said that it would appear that you can no longer convert a brown licence to a uk part 21 licence!
I said , the licence was issued by the CAA, and it says on it that it is valid for life, so if you cant convert it, is it still a valid licence to fly?
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Old 30th May 2021, 01:08
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Any help?

https://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=110102

I would say do not take no as gospel, I knew on my engineers licence they had got my types wrong and it took 15 years ( 3 renewals and lots of calls ) before it was finally correct.
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Old 30th May 2021, 07:11
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Thank you, but the person i spoke to said its because of rule changes after brexit, so jan 1st seemed to have been a deadline? but i never saw it anywhere.
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Old 30th May 2021, 09:13
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Whenever you find yourself against the brick wall of any bureaucracy then telephone calls are not to be trusted. Do everything in writing to create a record. Regulation and rules cannot be made up at whim by anyone however senior they may be. You either can or cannot exchange the licence. If the CAA say that now you cannot exchange your licence but could before they must present the regulation change or fulfil your application.

Unfortunately nowadays there never is anyone who has the willingness to make a decision. Desk shuffling and 'lying by omission' in order to procrastinate are a sign of our times as ever were. My thoughts are to get on with it and employ a solicitor if it is not resolved quickly. It doesn't seem a matter for you whether you hold the old brown licence format or the new sheet of paper format. That's the CAA's problem to resolve not you. Group A, EASA types or Part-21 are just names that mean the same thing. Their only problem is to decide what cabinet they can file it.

Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 30th May 2021 at 09:29.
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Old 30th May 2021, 23:00
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From the CAA Website:

Application for UK Part-FCL Conversion from an Existing UK Flight Crew Licence (SRG1104)

Try a Regulation 6 Apeal as they have failed to issue the licence.

Last edited by Whopity; 30th May 2021 at 23:11.
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Old 31st May 2021, 08:39
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The person on the phone said that it would appear that you can no longer convert a brown licence to a uk part 21 licence!
Whilst the process (as submitted to EASA) for conversion of UK national licences, ratings, and certificates to EASA Part-FCL equivalents can be found in CAP 804, unfortunately this does not apply for conversion from UK national to UK Part-FCL. Due to lack of foresight, it would appear that an equivalent process for conversion of UK national licences, ratings and certificates to UK Part-FCL equivalents has not been created.

ifitaint...
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Old 31st May 2021, 13:18
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I think Lack of Forsight would be a good basis for a Reg 6, it might get the ball rolling!
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Old 31st May 2021, 17:05
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... unfortunately this does not apply for conversion from UK national to UK Part-FCL.
It shouldn't be a conversion. A UK PPL is the same as a EASA PPL or even this particularly factious Part-21 PPL. All that needs changing is to an up to date piece of paper, IT IS NOT a conversion. There is nothing in the training nor in the privileges of the licence which is different. The PPL A licence holder met all the requirements for ICAO and still does. The restriction to UK airspace only was artificial and to placate the Czars of the EU. This unfair act simply needs reversing and then we're done.

A Part-21 aeroplane is just the same as a Group A aeroplane. Of course things evolve and change over time, both for aeroplane approvals and the maintenance and therefore the pilots training, but that is normal and it doesn't need a change in licence.
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Old 31st May 2021, 22:09
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A quick look at the latest UK Regulation: LLaw 1178_2011 12 May 2021.pdfaw 1178_2011 12 May 2021.pdf
Law 1178_2011 12 May 2021.pdf Page 680
Law In Force Version 2 of 2 31 December 2020 -
Present Subjects Aviation
1. Pilot licences A pilot licence issued by [the CAA]1 in accordance with the national requirements shall be converted into a Part-FCL licence provided that the applicant complies with the following requirements:
PPL(A) ≥ 70 on aeroplanes Demonstrate the use of radio navigation aids PPL(A)
So if they haven't done it REG 6 Appeal.
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Old 1st Jun 2021, 11:03
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My understanding, is that you must first complain to the section involved before the Reg 6 process. Complaint (1) Your phone call. I would recommend you make a firm but polite complaint (2) in writing, now, Provide the extract identified by whopity. Don't trust current officers of the CAA to know their own regulations, those days are long gone. Of course, you should mention that you are aware of the Reg 6 process. However, it is always wise to 'nip things in the bud' before they go too far and thereafter require lots of unravelling. A full Reg 6 appeal process will always be time consuming so bear that in mind.

If you haven't already join AOPA they are very good at dealing with these issues and will support you through any appeal process. They are very good at nipping things in the bud too.
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Old 2nd Jun 2021, 20:42
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Thanks one and all for your input, a lot of ammunition should it be required.
Interesting point about use of radio aids, i see it appears on the srg2128 at item 3e as a requirement, but is not mentioned on the srg1157, the form used for the renewal.
As yet they have not asked for proof that radio nav. training has been carried out, (although far more at home with skydemon.)
After locating the Ratings page that they requested the other week, perhaps the clock is reset, and we have to wait a further 30 days for their assessment.
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