Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Flying Instructors & Examiners
Reload this Page >

Return to instructing after 20 years

Flying Instructors & Examiners A place for instructors to communicate with one another because some of them get a bit tired of the attitude that instructing is the lowest form of aviation, as seems to prevail on some of the other forums!

Return to instructing after 20 years

Old 29th Jun 2020, 10:07
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Return to instructing after 20 years

Hi,
Probably a familiar theme this but , due covid, I知 thinking about renewing my FI. Airline jobs gone and I値l probably end up with a job in another industry , so this would be to stay in touch with aviation / few extra quid.

Last instructed 2002, held rating 1992-2002. 1600 hrs SE instruction.

I知 wondering If recovering the rating is financially viable ? If it were to take 20 hrs of dual at 」200 ish, it would be a non starter ....has anyone any experience of how hard it was to get back into the flows and pater to get through the test - in addition my SEP is lapsed, so I壇 have to throw that in the mix too..

any thoughts ?
Meester proach is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2020, 16:36
  #2 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
Posts: 1,437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Why not pop down to your local flying club and have a chat with the CFI.
I kept my SE piston land going by a flight test every two years. Very strange going back the very first time.
Cramped, really light controls, noisy with an open live mike. Just how students learnt in those conditions.
Sufficient flying to get up to speed, HASELL checks etc. Remember to use your feet. No yaw damper !
As for the instructing bit, probably start the “patter” during the initial work up. 1:500,000 map? Still used to teach basic nav?
Simply see how it goes.
parkfell is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2020, 17:27
  #3 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Certainly makes sense, but with limited funds I’m a bit worried about dipping a toe in and wasting them
Meester proach is offline  
Old 30th Jun 2020, 09:48
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: titan
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I hadn't flown a single for 15 years and decided to do the instructors course. Had to do 5 hours in a single in the previous 6 months as a pre requisite to the FI course entry but the first 2 hours got me right back up to speed with single engine flights and the other 3 refreshed my map reading, ATC and airspace procedures etc and renewed my SEP anyway. It's like riding a bike except I flared at 30 feet a few times by mistake!
I suspect you will be able to fly the single no problem within an hour or two, but it's the 'soft' skills such as relearning the basic rules, how to teach again, read maps etc that take a bit more work to get back up to speed with. Fortunately loads of this can be done by reading at home rather than paying to fly. I'd say for someone who already has a FI rating, you should be able to renew your SEP with a few hours practice, study at home to relearn how to be a flight instructor and then do the FI renewal test with an examiner.
​​The motor skills seem to stay with you, but the soft skills and tricks of the trade seem to vanish and need refreshing. Good luck
avtur007 is offline  
Old 30th Jun 2020, 10:06
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
Age: 73
Posts: 1,647
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I think you need to do 2 things.
Firstly, visit flying schools at your local airfields and discuss likely employment prospects in the medium future. I suspect most places won't have much idea of demand yet, though judging by our very limited experience at a small Club, there's a head of steam developing with students and PPLs wanting to get back into it.
Secondly, make enquiries at a large establishment like On Track Aviation. They are a well-regarded 'one stop shop' for people wanting to return to instructing. I did a FI seminar there a few years ago and the majority of delegates were airline pilots renewing their FI. They might cost a bit more per hour than some other places, but you'll likely need fewer hours if the instruction you receive is of higher quality.
The phrase that pays these days is 'training as required', rather than a set number of hours.

Good Luck!

TOO

TheOddOne is offline  
Old 30th Jun 2020, 16:43
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: uk
Age: 73
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I'm back into GA instructing after retiring from airline flying.

You need to:

Renew your SEP Rating. Training as required (at least a couple of hours) + Proficiency Check. Total flight time - I would suggest 3 hours upwards...

Attend an Instructor Seminar. Mine was over 2 days and I really enjoyed it. Book well ahead...

Renew your FI Rating. Training as required (at an ATO) + Assessment of Competence. Total flight time - I would suggest 6 hours upwards...

Consider what to do with your IR (if anything). An IR attached to a Type Rating isn't valid on SEP/MEP. You don't even have IR(R) privileges. I'm not finding it straightforward on how to add an IR(R) back onto my licence. Not sure how IR(R) will resolve after departure from EASA.

A UK National ATPL (now only valid when flying non EASA types) gives IMC Rating privileges whilst ever the licence is valid. It would be nice if, after departure from EASA, our UK issued ATPL's become National Licences again with attached IMC / IR(R) privileges...

Please let me know if you find anything out about this!!
36050100 is offline  
Old 30th Jun 2020, 19:42
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by 36050100 View Post

Consider what to do with your IR (if anything). An IR attached to a Type Rating isn't valid on SEP/MEP. You don't even have IR(R) privileges. I'm not finding it straightforward on how to add an IR(R) back onto my licence. Not sure how IR(R) will resolve after departure from EASA.

A UK National ATPL (now only valid when flying non EASA types) gives IMC Rating privileges whilst ever the licence is valid. It would be nice if, after departure from EASA, our UK issued ATPL's become National Licences again with attached IMC / IR(R) privileges...

Please let me know if you find anything out about this!!
Im just looking into renewing my IR too. This might be of interest:

https://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=114169



type1 is offline  
Old 30th Jun 2020, 21:55
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: uk
Age: 73
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thanks for the pointer. I think I may have left it too late to get that credit as my multi-pilot IR lapsed just over 2 years ago. The type I was on was being retired as it wasn't worth investing in the airframes to make them PBN compliant, I never did any PBN endorsments either. I was so glad to get out and have some time away from aviation for a while, I clearly wasn't thinking for the future .

Unless one wanted to be an IR instructor, I'm not sure that a full IR is worthwhile keeping anyway (for me at least). Maintaining the rating every 12 months is all well and good but to make full use of it one would need regular access to an airways equipped aircraft that was itself being kept fully loaded with databases. The IR(R) gives some relief from the distance from cloud requirements for VFR which is what is what I mostly need.

Para 3.3.4 (section 5 Part E Page 5) of CAP804 (which is marked "Reference Only") states that:
  1. 3.3.4 Part-FCL Restricted Instrument Rating

    Where a licence containing a valid IMC rating or IMC privileges is replaced with a Part- FCL licence, the IMC rating privileges may be preserved as a restricted Instrument Rating.This will appear on the licence as IR (Restricted).

    The privileges are the same as for the IMC Rating.The use of the Rating is restricted to UK airspace. The renewal and revalidation requirements for the IR (Restricted) are the same as for the IMC Rating.

My licence path is UK ATPL - UK JAR ATPL - NL JAR ATPL - NL EASA ATPL - UK EASA ATPL. Of course, the IMC / IR(R) couldn't appear on an NL licence as they don't recognise the rating... I did have a valid IR on my first UK EASA ATPL. To my mind (!!) it should have had IR(R) privileges attached, and CAP804 as above implies that the renewal requirements for that IR(R) rating are as for the IMC rating.

Standards Doc 25 Para 1.4 states:The IMC rating is designed to qualify holders to exercise privileges that are prohibited in the UK CAA PPL, BCPL and certain JAA pilot licences (notably prohibiting flight in accordance with the IFR). The UK CAA CPL and ATPL do not contain the same restrictions and so holders of such licences may exercise the same privileges as an IMC rating holder without the need to hold a separate (IMC) rating, or to require revalidation of the privileges other than to hold a valid Class or Type rating for the aeroplane to be flown.

So the question is, if you now have a UK EASA ATPL, are IR(R) privileges embedded without requiring revalidation other than to hold a valid Class or Type rating??

Discuss!
(20 marks)
36050100 is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 06:37
  #9 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thanks for all the input so far.

I have the money to do this, but I need to hold on a bit as that money may have to go on a sim LPC for the airline type to enable me to a actually apply For any overseas jobs which may come up.

Ideally I suppose , with this summer basically stuffed, I’d start looking at getting it back early next year.

I’d totally forgotten about the old IMC rating and such like ....or IR R as I believe it is now ...
Meester proach is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 10:20
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 712
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
CAP 804 (Reference only)

An applicant who has held an ICAO IR(A) or military green aeroplane Instrument Rating or a UK professional pilot licence aeroplanes or a valid Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) Ground Instructors Certificate within the 5 years before the date of application for the IMC Rating / IR (Restricted) will be credited with a pass in the Theoretical Knowledge Examination.



3.3.2

Credits An applicant who has held an ICAO IR(A) or military green aeroplane Instrument Rating or a UK professional pilots licence aeroplanes within the 10 years before the date of application for the IMC Rating is not required to undergo a course of flight or ground training but must pass the Theoretical Knowledge examination and initial IMC Rating / IR (Restricted) Skill Test.



3.3.3

UK National Professional Aeroplane Licence Holders IMC Rating privileges are contained within UK CPL(A) and ATPL(A) licences; (this does not include JAR-FCL or Part-FCL licences). There is no requirement for a separate IMC Certificate of Test for these licences.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 12th Jul 2020, 07:44
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Uxbridge
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Not much use if you can only use the UK National licence on non-EASA aircraft. Let's hope that get's sorted before next year.
MrAverage is offline  
Old 12th Jul 2020, 16:33
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,606
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Wow I can't believe how complicated things are across the pond. A fellow I know recently renewed his Canadian Instructor Rating after 25 years flying the 747. All he had to do was write the exam again, get a few hours brush up with an instructor in a bespoke train to proficiency program, who then signed him off for the flight test. The Canadian ATPL incorporates the Multi Engine and Multi IFR ratings and has blanket type ratings for anything under 12,500 lbs MGTOW so he can teach basically everything.now.

Can anyone name even one substantive actual benefit to the over the top hoops you guys in Europe have to jump through ?

Big Pistons Forever is offline  
Old 12th Jul 2020, 20:08
  #13 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Well, it has ever been thus.
Meester proach is offline  
Old 12th Jul 2020, 21:49
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 712
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Big Pistons Forever

There is a singular but enormous substantive benefit to all the obstacles and hoops: You slide further on bullshit.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 13th Jul 2020, 06:43
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: UK
Age: 39
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
In Europe you are forced to do type ratings on Mitsubishi MU-2, Dornier 228 and DHC-6 and other complex aircraft MTOW <12,500 lbs As apposed to a sit down with the POH. I think the FAA SFAR on the MU-2 was an interesting comparison between the two training regimes.
Sleepybhudda is offline  
Old 13th Jul 2020, 09:20
  #16 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
So , I’m after recommendations as to where to do this and publications I should purchase.

Most seminars seem to be October onwards, so I’ll be coming into winter. It may be worth leaving it To the new year ?
Meester proach is offline  
Old 13th Jul 2020, 09:37
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Uxbridge
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Which area of the country?
MrAverage is offline  
Old 13th Jul 2020, 10:21
  #18 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I can go anywhere to be honest, but ideally , as I知 just west of London , as far west as Bristol , as far north as Birmingham
Meester proach is offline  
Old 13th Jul 2020, 17:21
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Uxbridge
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Ok. Plenty of choice then, too numerous to list. All I'll say is; lots of rumours about commercial schools - big and small - closing down or "shrinking" in what they do. Current situation makes recommending very difficult. As usual, some will take up front payments down with them. The seminar should stay valid for a year. I'd start by finding an FIE who has somewhere he or she knows will not let you down................
MrAverage is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2020, 08:12
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 712
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Booker Aviation at Wycombe seems to be your best bet and easily available from west london.. They are long established and have a good reputation.

As to how you pay: discuss with them how you schedule paying them. By paying in phased blocks you can minimise future risks.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.