Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Flying Instructors & Examiners
Reload this Page >

PPL(A) with an SSEA rating

Flying Instructors & Examiners A place for instructors to communicate with one another because some of them get a bit tired of the attitude that instructing is the lowest form of aviation, as seems to prevail on some of the other forums!

PPL(A) with an SSEA rating

Old 23rd Feb 2019, 16:42
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Sometimes north, sometimes south
Posts: 1,763
PPL(A) with an SSEA rating

Here's a peculiar one. Checked out a guy's documents today to find he had a UK PPL(A) with an SSEA rating issued by the CAA in 2016. The rating had been revalidated in 2018. I said to him I couldn't understand how he had a PPL(A) with an SSEA because SSEAs only apply to NPPLs and PPLs should have an SEP Rating.

I can only assume this was a CAA error in 2016 that has never been picked up. Or am I missing something?

NS
NorthSouth is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2019, 19:09
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Age: 60
Posts: 52
CAA Fault, Have a good weekend...
Danny boy is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2019, 20:53
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Strathaven Airfield
Posts: 860
And now you have break the news that it is revalidation by test!

(Although for which licence, I don't know: he could have a PPL(A) by mistake, instead of an NPPL. Or it could be a SSEA rating instead of an SEP!)

And he has to pay for it!
xrayalpha is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2019, 10:06
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 5,873
What does the holder think he has?
Whopity is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2019, 10:51
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 25,377
An SSEA Class Rating certainly may be included in a UK PPL - see the ANO!

This came about many years ago. The idea being that it if a PPL pilot was no longer able to hold a Class2 medical, he/she could then fly within SSEA limitations provided that he/she could make an NPPL medical declaration, without needing to apply for an NPPL. But to continue to do so after the extant SEP Class Rating expiry date, the Rating would need to be reissued as an SSEA Class Rating included in the PPL.
BEagle is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2019, 11:21
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 87
The SEPL is an EASA rating which is held by ATPLs, CPLs and PPLs. It does not apply to NPPLs and cannot be attached to one.

The CAA effectively demoted the UK issued PPL to that of an NPPL on the introduction of the EASA PPL, although that had not been the case previously under JAR. On obtaining the EASA PPL based on the previous held licence the option to maintain the UK PPL is granted on request. We now had an anomaly in that the EASA holder had a SEPL with full privileges but the same rating attached to the UK PPL is restricted.

It had become common amongst many PPLs to also obtain a NPPL and a Medical Declaration. This was often only as an assurance policy. Should the pilot have a hiccup with their EASA Class 2 medical, this allowed them to continue flying with the NPPL. Many PPLs now held three licences but essentially for the same purpose. To avoid the necessity to hold the third licence and for those who hadn't applied for the EASA PPL (because they flew only non EASA types) a second licence the answer was to allow UK PPL holders to attach a SSEA to the their licence and therefore fly on a medical declaration should they need or chose to.

I cannot find the CAA published information on this but this is nothing new even to CAA staff.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2019, 11:25
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 25,377
Whatever is a 'SEPL'?

Most of your post is incorrect. Please refer to the UK ANO!
BEagle is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2019, 11:32
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 87
OK, please explain what is incorrect in my post.

SEPL is my way of simply expressing SEP(land) sorry if that has caused confusion.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2019, 12:32
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 5,873
The CAA effectively demoted the UK issued PPL to that of an NPPL on the introduction of the EASA PPL,
Incorrect, A UK PPL remains an ICAO licence exactly as it always has been and th CAA has no power to demote it. The NPPL is an entirely seperate licence.
Whopity is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2019, 15:41
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 87
I wrote the word "effectively" which is correct. I did not write it is now "the same" as the NPPL.

The UK PPL is limited to fly those aircraft not recognised (no semantics please) by EASA. The vast majority of aircraft available to the average PPL to hire have an EASA C of A and not available to the non EASA licence holders, that is my point. Because the UK PPL is no longer valid on these EASA aircraft it is limiting, in effect, to the to that of the NPPL in most if not all respects. I appreciate this is not not true for all PPL holders, those with the deepest pockets. The average PPL does not have the access to the often, large, sometimes complex types with a UK issued national C of A. There are relatively few of these aircraft which can be expensive to operate. Most will only aspire to flying small LAA permit aircraft.

I agree that the UK PPL is ICAO compliant but why then has the UK restricted these licences from being fully used in the UK? Why would a state outside of the EU recognise the UK PPL for its full purpose when the UK itself does not?.

I will interested to know of what countries still accept the UK PPL.

Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 24th Feb 2019 at 15:52.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2019, 16:38
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 5,873
I will interested to know of what countries still accept the UK PPL.
Any ICAO State outside EASA
but why then has the UK restricted these licences from being fully used in the UK?
For exactly the same reason that all EASA states have done the same, to comply with the EU Regulation.
Whopity is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2019, 17:50
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 87
Ok, are you saying that the holder of a UK national PPL (not EASA) is able to obtain a piggy-back FAA airman's certificate? The EASA PPL certainly can.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2019, 18:03
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 5,873
There is no reason why not. The same in Australia Canada and New Zealand.
Whopity is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2019, 18:36
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 87
The FAA, in regard to the airman certificate for foreign licenses, refer only to a Part-FCL licence.

The wording in the UK PPL section 1X, Validity is as follows;

"this licence is valid for aircraft registered in the United Kingdom for which the flight crew member is not required to hold a Part-FCL licence."

The licence, to my reading, clearly states the licence is valid only for non EASA aircraft registered in the UK. How can the licence be valid outside the UK unless flying a non easa UK registered aeroplane? Could it be that an EASA aircraft is so only within the EU but outside it is not an EASA aircraft?

However on the front page of the licence the following: "Issued in accordance with ICAO standards"

Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 25th Feb 2019 at 08:18.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2019, 09:21
  #15 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Sometimes north, sometimes south
Posts: 1,763
Wow, I clearly started something here! Thanks Beagle in particular for directing me back to the ANO. I think I've now found the relevant items - Article 153(1)(a) allows the CAA to include any rating listed in Sch 8/Part 2/Chs 1 or 2 in a UK PPL, and Article 163 allows a UK PPL to be flown on a medical declaration.
Needless to say, the pilot in question also has a LAPL with a LAPL medical certificate, so is unlikely ever to need to fall back on his PPL(SSEA) since he doesn't fly non-EASA aircraft.
What imaginative things might we all be doing if we weren't having to fill our heads with this mind-boggling arcanity!
NorthSouth is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2019, 10:29
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 5,873
"Issued in accordance with ICAO standards"
Says it all. Now go to ICAO Annex 1.
Section XI is Validity and not a Restriction
"this licence is valid for aircraft registered in the United Kingdom for which the flight crew member is not required to hold a Part-FCL licence."
Correct, but it does not include the word "only"
Whopity is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2019, 11:40
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: London
Posts: 490
Fl1ingfrog, the regulator does not have the jurisdiction to state "this licence is valid for aircraft wherever they may be registered." Besides, the same words appears on a UK Part-FCL licence.

The US will issue a restricted certificate based on any foreign licence meeting ICAO Annex 1 standards. Once issued, the certificate is to be used according to US regulations, not according to the regulations governing the parent licence. Details in 14 CFR 61.75 and Chief Counsel interpretation to Andrew Krausz 2012.

It's also untrue to say UK EASA aircraft can't be flown using a UK non-Part-FCL licence. You may do so at the LAPL privilege level under general exemption E 4843 until 7 April 2020 or earlier. See ORS 4 No. 1293 issued 12 Feb 2019.
selfin is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2019, 20:46
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 87
whopity

I can't find the use of the word "only" on any of my old or current licenses except in an old RT licence: "VHF only".

selfin

you write: Fl1ingfrog, the regulator does not have the jurisdiction to state "this licence is valid for aircraft wherever they may be registered." Besides, the same words appears on a UK Part-FCL licence.

Of course not on the first of your points but the wording of your second point only appears with regard to non-easa aeroplanes. It is not a requirement of EASA that the NAA includes the national privileges attached to the same licence but the UK CAA have decided to include them. Thanks for the heads up on the latest ORSA.

You have, all of you, convinced me, well almost but I will keep my powder dry. I won't drag the matter on further but oh for the halcyon days of old.

Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 25th Feb 2019 at 22:12.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2019, 22:46
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 5,873
FF
I can't find the use of the word "only" on any of my old or current licenses except in an old RT licence:
Quite right, but you added it in your earlier post!
The licence, to my reading, clearly states the licence is valid only for non EASA aircraft registered in the UK.
My point is that it does NOT say valid only!
Licencing was so simple until the bureaucrats got involved!
Whopity is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2019, 09:34
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 87
Here, here!
Fl1ingfrog is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.