Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Flying Instructors & Examiners
Reload this Page >

Survey: 2018, Instructor's terms and conditions on a changing market?

Flying Instructors & Examiners A place for instructors to communicate with one another because some of them get a bit tired of the attitude that instructing is the lowest form of aviation, as seems to prevail on some of the other forums!

Survey: 2018, Instructor's terms and conditions on a changing market?

Old 14th Aug 2018, 10:21
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Chalfont St Peter
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Although I take the point that airlines are currently 'vacuuming' up Instructors, I'm very curious to know why the regionals etc would be interested in PPL Instructors teaching straight & level. From the Airlines perspective, Is it a case of just being in the industry coupled with a serious need for pilots ?

I dont yet meet the hours to qualify as an IRI so love to hear peoples opinion on this.
jamess115 is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2018, 06:40
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Midlands
Posts: 336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by jamess115
I'm very curious to know why the regionals etc would be interested in PPL Instructors teaching straight & level.
Is that all you teach James115? I've personally known many an experienced MEIR instructor who've said the most challenging work they've ever done is teaching someone to fly from scratch. The regionals are interested in anyone with good handling skills amongst other important skillsets; if you don't mind me saying, your description is a too often heard indictment of the profession and isn't massively helpful.

HW
Happy Wanderer is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2018, 07:23
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Chalfont St Peter
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Happy Wanderer


Is that all you teach James115?
if you don't mind me saying, your description is a too often heard indictment of the profession and isn't massively helpful.

HW
Sorry mate, what's the point of a forum if I cant put forward questions and ask people's advice? ..
'Straight & level was simply used colloquially to describe the kind of flying one does as a PPL instructor. So basically 'I do mind you saying..' if your going to judge other members.
jamess115 is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2018, 13:41
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: London
Posts: 611
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Try asking most integrated ATO graduates how to select and maintain S&L for a given speed/config and you might see why some operators like former instructors. The other advantage is experience - with hours in the logbook you are closer to meeting minimums for command, which is where there is currently some demand. There are other qualities that FI's bring such as an ability to convey information, greater exposure to the flying environment, and importantly a proven interest in teaching which is a desirable quality for potential TRI/TRE's. I know a number of former PPL flying instructors who are senior trainers/examiners on types as varied as the ATR and 747/A380. I also get Happy Wanderer's comment regarding teaching basic flying skills; by the time a student reaches the MEIR phase, they can already fly (apparently) - the real instructional work is done in the first 20 or so hours.
Reverserbucket is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2018, 17:36
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Midlands
Posts: 336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Reverserbucket
Try asking most integrated ATO graduates how to select and maintain S&L for a given speed/config and you might see why some operators like former instructors. The other advantage is experience - with hours in the logbook you are closer to meeting minimums for command, which is where there is currently some demand. There are other qualities that FI's bring such as an ability to convey information, greater exposure to the flying environment, and importantly a proven interest in teaching which is a desirable quality for potential TRI/TRE's. I know a number of former PPL flying instructors who are senior trainers/examiners on types as varied as the ATR and 747/A380. I also get Happy Wanderer's comment regarding teaching basic flying skills; by the time a student reaches the MEIR phase, they can already fly (apparently) - the real instructional work is done in the first 20 or so hours.
Spot on. I've clearly touched a nerve or two....🙄
Happy Wanderer is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2018, 20:53
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Palm Beach
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I think the thread has started to go off in the wrong direction. Hugofly makes some good observations and its nice to see someone say out loud they love teaching and wouldn't want to do anything else. I believe the industry needs more people like this to survive and keep the standards where they need to be. I know there are schools that would pay more for dedicated instructors who are not racing off to the airlines as soon as they get the hours needed. I guess the real question is, what are these type of instructors worth, and perhaps, as already commented on this thread, what is a good school, looking for these type of instructors, willing to or can afford to pay? I do feel the 'hours building' instructors, which are still needed to meet training demand, have managed to drive the wages down. Its not their fault, its just old fashioned capitalism at work.

Whatever the answer might be, I think the industry has to wake up to the idea that good dedicated instructors are worth a lot more than 25K a year! - I hope everyone agrees with that, after all, this is the 'flying instructors and examiners' forum!!
spitfirejock is offline  
Old 8th Sep 2018, 17:11
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Yes.
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
What a great shame some of the retirees from airlines corporate etc., have to part out 8 grand plus to, pass on knowledge gained over long careers. Surely these are some of the people a flying school would benifit from having.
Dan_Brown is offline  
Old 8th Sep 2018, 18:38
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: U.K
Posts: 90
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
After instructing for many years then running off to the airlines to earn some pennies I am in a position to return and would love too but the hoops that need jumping plus the cost make it a difficult decision.
simmple is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2018, 08:26
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
USA

Guys,

I contacted 4 ATO in the USA, if they were interested in my services.
3 replied, one so far not.
The 3 that replied all said the same thing, we would love to take you in, but can not sponsor you !!
Have a nice day,

Gerrit
FAA ATP CFII MEI
EASA CPL FI IRI CRI
gerpols is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2018, 11:18
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: UK North
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by simmple
After instructing for many years then running off to the airlines to earn some pennies I am in a position to return and would love too but the hoops that need jumping plus the cost make it a difficult decision.
Yes I am in a similar predicament and also at 67 would I get my investment back I wonder? It would also involve living away from home as there is nothing local.
Bridgestone17 is offline  
Old 12th Sep 2018, 13:58
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: UK, Paris, Peckham, New York
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
At the risk of thread creep further...EASA needs to seriously look at the requirements for some of the advanced teaching courses, specifically the MEIR. I love teaching, and do it on the side from my 737 job, but I cannot teach ME unless I have 30hrs p1, which will cost about 10k! I cannot afford that (as a 737 captain!!) so how can any freshly minted FI get that unless sponsored by a school, and not too many schools can afford that. There is a tiny market for piston twin work in europe now, so you cant get the hours that way, even if you had thousands of hours on a dash 8 I do not believe there is any dispensation!

It is fast approaching the point where all MEIR will only be taught at the 2-3 big schools. It is just not financially viable for the average flight school to teach this. Such a massive shame, as it will ultimately lead to a big closure in schools...
UAV689 is offline  
Old 19th Sep 2018, 20:50
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by simmple
After instructing for many years then running off to the airlines to earn some pennies I am in a position to return and would love too but the hoops that need jumping plus the cost make it a difficult decision.

so would I, but my FI expired in 2002, so itd cost thousands to get it back and take years to recoup that
Meester proach is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2018, 17:24
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Palm Beach
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I do believe the Industry would benefit greatly from having experienced pilots (instructors) going back to ab-initio instructing. Consider writing to the CAA to obtain details of exactly what is required to renew your FI with SEP. I believe each person would be reviewed based on their experience, so training required could be a lot less than you might think!

An ex-colleague of mine did this about a year ago and was quoted 'training as required' to meet proficiency plus an AoC with an FIE, which resulted in less than 10 hours total training. The FIE, I believe, did the test for a minimal charge as a courtesy, and the school which was interested in his services paid for 50% of the costs for a commitment to work as an instructor for 12 months...sounds like a common sense approach to me!

As I have mentioned in a previous post, flight pay rates (and even basic salaries) have definitely improved in the last year, so I don't think it would take years to recoup the outlay. I do know a couple of schools that are eagerly looking for mature pilots to fill a current void if anyone would like to PM me for details (I think I am allowed to receive these now?).
spitfirejock is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2018, 18:45
  #34 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: don't know anymore
Age: 48
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
From Private message

"FI(R) 420 hours total, not a sniff from any airline, qualified 5-6yrs ago now. Instruct part time in the north of England for 18/flight hour, have a full time job in a different industry that earns me a living. Instructor rating paid itself off now and got me 150 hours. In my opinion no schools are recruiting locally or they are being picky as usual, I’m willing to relocate for a good paying full time flying job.

Feel free to reword appropriately. (did not)

Regards"

Thank you for participating
hugofly is offline  
Old 8th Oct 2018, 11:36
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 657
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Read an article recently, think it was in The Times, re part time jobs that students were doing to pay their way, ie;

Language tutoring 25-30/hr
Videogame tutoring (eg Fortnite) 30/hr (you're joking, yeah?)
Piano/guitar teaching 18-39/hr
IKEA flatpack furniture assembly 20-25/hr (oh for goodness sake...)
Dog walking 15/hr
Cleaning 12/hr (20/hr London)
Pet sitting 12/hr
Personal training 45/hr
Teaching yoga 30-50/hr

Kinda puts PPL instructor rates in perspective. Just saying.
Parson is offline  
Old 8th Oct 2018, 18:16
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: England
Posts: 379
Likes: 0
Received 11 Likes on 7 Posts
Instructing has always been poorly paid and probably will always be. After you take into account crap weather days and brief/debrief time you will earn a decent amount more working in Lidl.
Instructing has always been about building hours to get the big break. If you are older in years you have to seriously take this into account as the odds are stacked against you.
Did I regret doing it 18 years ago - definitely no.
Would I go through it at my age now (almost mid 40) - definitely no.
jeepys is offline  
Old 8th Oct 2018, 22:09
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
Age: 75
Posts: 1,684
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
The only one on that list that comes remotely needing any formal qualification would be music teaching, typically grade 8, but I guess there's no regulatory body stating that. So really, no comparison to a requirement for
a) a formal qualification
b) recurrent testing
c) a strict regulatory environment.

TOO
TheOddOne is offline  
Old 9th Oct 2018, 17:29
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 657
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
TOO

That was kinda my point - comparing what you can earn with little or no training or qualifications compared to what an FI(R) has to shell out to earn 20 quid an hour.
Parson is offline  
Old 10th Oct 2018, 13:52
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: holding short of....
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Let's say you get paid 30 per "flying hour" GROSS, you need to consider almost half of this per hour.
30 minutes goes in briefing and AC preparation.
20 minutes goes on debriefing and deplaning (I mean securing AC, techlogs and walk to school).
Therefore your working hour is rewarded with less than 17 gross.

Out of the 17 you need to pay taxes, revalidation cost, medical, commuting to outisde of the city where most airfields are located, to name few of the costs.

A Yoga teacher, dog walker, guitar or language teacher will have other costs to pay and taxes but their working hour is based on the real hour. They arrived at 1300 hrs, they leave at 1400hrs and they get paid for one hour.
A FI will arrive in at 1200 leaves at 1400 and get paid for 1 flying hour.

If the industry is in need of experienced and motivated FI, the key here in my opinion, is not to hunt and form new FI but to retain the experienced ones.
The industry must pay FI according to their long term commitment.
As an example, Pay them 30 during the first year, but as a school calculate a 45 as a cost per hour to cover the rate of the experienced ones. With that cost pre-planned you can increment 5 per hour per year for at least 5 years without having a need to revise your operating costs.
​​
Airgus is offline  
Old 10th Oct 2018, 20:50
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: England
Posts: 379
Likes: 0
Received 11 Likes on 7 Posts
It's still crap money either way. If you raise the level of pay to what it needs to be there will be very little business. Catch 22.
jeepys is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.