Minimum Safety Altitude
So, if they are IIMC with high ground around, what would you suggest they do?
Follow the teaching, turn 180 degress level and hopefully you will fly out of it. At least you should have an idea of the terrain you have just flown over rather than pressing on into the unknow. The main emphasis is to stay VFR and act early. There is no majic solution for those who plough into IMC and have no knowledge or training on how to get out of it.
turn 180 degress level and hopefully you will fly out of it.
If you are carrying out a rate one turn IIMC you have no idea what you are turning into since you can't see it - exactly as I indicated in my dit about Swansea to Shobdon. They followed the training and would have all died if they had better IF skills.
Turn before you get to the crap weather by all means but once in it you are flying IMC below MSA - tell me how that is a good idea?
Some years ago I had a student who had completed the 4 hours IF. Once he had his licence he flew off to France where he inadvertantly got into IMC. He climbed to the safety altitude and was now in solid IMC. Nobody to talk to and no real idea of where he was. Eventually, he found a hole and descended. Afterwards we discussed it and he agreed that if he had not found the hole the probable outcome was not good. Had he simply turned around, there is a higher probability that he would have regained his visual references earlier and without the anxiety he caused himself and his passengers by climbing into the unknown.
The emphasis for the VFR pilot must always be to stay visual and when in areas of high ground be aware of the location of it and the possible oragraphic effects.
The 180 degree turn is based upon the assumption that you have only lost your visual references for a few seconds. Climbing to Safety Altitude presumes you are competent at instrument flying and have a means of recovery.
The emphasis for the VFR pilot must always be to stay visual and when in areas of high ground be aware of the location of it and the possible oragraphic effects.
The 180 degree turn is based upon the assumption that you have only lost your visual references for a few seconds. Climbing to Safety Altitude presumes you are competent at instrument flying and have a means of recovery.
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Problem comes when the 180 degree turn is completed but the pilot still finds himself in IMC. Easily done if there was any delay in beginning the turn.
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Hang on in there, it seems to take seconds to be IIMC, but ages to come out of it.
The students adrenalin starts pumping, the stress level increases, just do the 180 turn, get back to VMC.
The students adrenalin starts pumping, the stress level increases, just do the 180 turn, get back to VMC.
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I am constantly amazed by my students' apparent inability to detect approaching cloud (either whilst in the cruise or when climbing), their willingness to continue flight in to it as visual references rapidly degrade and their reluctance to take prompt action to avoid it.
The 180 turn is great when you have lost forward references but still have contact with the ground - you can turn with a slight descent which may well pop you out of cloud with just an elevated heartrate to contend with.
Trying clever manoeuvres solid IMC - because you have waited too long - is a recipe for disaster; disorentation in a turn and probable loss of control or CFIT.
At least wings level in a climb away from the ground, you have a chance of sorting yourself out - even if it is just crying for help on the radio and being guided by a friendly air trafficker to a safe let down area (it has happened countless times).
Trying clever manoeuvres solid IMC - because you have waited too long - is a recipe for disaster; disorentation in a turn and probable loss of control or CFIT.
At least wings level in a climb away from the ground, you have a chance of sorting yourself out - even if it is just crying for help on the radio and being guided by a friendly air trafficker to a safe let down area (it has happened countless times).
crab
With all due respect to your opinion what we must remember is this:
The student is only required to learn straight and level and a 180 rate one turn. This is generally accepted to be a one hour flight and the majority of them manage to get to an acceptable standard in that one flight. There is no requirement to teach any IF climbing or descending or turns whilst doing so. Since all their flying training should be conducted using the natural horizon they will not know how to climb or descend on instruments safely.
My initial four hours during basic training saved my life , but only because I didn't try to climb.
With all due respect to your opinion what we must remember is this:
The student is only required to learn straight and level and a 180 rate one turn. This is generally accepted to be a one hour flight and the majority of them manage to get to an acceptable standard in that one flight. There is no requirement to teach any IF climbing or descending or turns whilst doing so. Since all their flying training should be conducted using the natural horizon they will not know how to climb or descend on instruments safely.
My initial four hours during basic training saved my life , but only because I didn't try to climb.
There is no requirement to teach any IF climbing or descending or turns whilst doing so.
Exercise 19: Basic instrument flight:
(A) physiological sensations;
(B) instrument appreciation; attitude instrument flight;
(C) instrument limitations;
(D) basic manoeuvres:
(a) straight and level at various air speeds and configurations;
(b) climbing and descending;
(c) standard rate turns, climbing and descending, onto selected headings;
(d) recoveries from climbing and descending turns.
(A) physiological sensations;
(B) instrument appreciation; attitude instrument flight;
(C) instrument limitations;
(D) basic manoeuvres:
(a) straight and level at various air speeds and configurations;
(b) climbing and descending;
(c) standard rate turns, climbing and descending, onto selected headings;
(d) recoveries from climbing and descending turns.
The LAPL does not include Ex 19 at all.
Thanks Whopity.
I've always managed to convince students to learn b, c and d but didn't realise it was mandatory. That just makes it easier to achieve in the future.
Still don't want them to climb if caught out though...............
I've always managed to convince students to learn b, c and d but didn't realise it was mandatory. That just makes it easier to achieve in the future.
Still don't want them to climb if caught out though...............
Still don't want them to climb if caught out though...............
1, Avoid IMC early, but if you get caught out
2. Try to reverse course with 180, but if that doesn't restore immediate VMC
3. Climb wings level to Safety Altitude
Not a tricky concept to teach
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I'd say this is one of the eternal "one size doesn't fit all" situations.
There is an argument that says carry out the 180 turn then descend, rather than climb because that should put you back where you were, in VMC, rather than risk an unrehearsed climb to a safe altitude (it's only safe if you can get down again).
My pre-planned option when taking off from a certain unlit night site with no weather "actual" information and hitting very low cloud was to keep the wings level, keep the speed under control and descend. I had to use it one dark night when the weather forecast was very wrong. We got out of the situation by carrying out a very low level circuit (less than 250' agl). Another aircraft, not a million miles away, hit the same low cloud a couple of hours later. The pilot tried to turn back, became disorientated and crashed, killing one occupant and seriously injuring himself and others.
But... "If in doubt, chicken out" is the best advice.
There is an argument that says carry out the 180 turn then descend, rather than climb because that should put you back where you were, in VMC, rather than risk an unrehearsed climb to a safe altitude (it's only safe if you can get down again).
My pre-planned option when taking off from a certain unlit night site with no weather "actual" information and hitting very low cloud was to keep the wings level, keep the speed under control and descend. I had to use it one dark night when the weather forecast was very wrong. We got out of the situation by carrying out a very low level circuit (less than 250' agl). Another aircraft, not a million miles away, hit the same low cloud a couple of hours later. The pilot tried to turn back, became disorientated and crashed, killing one occupant and seriously injuring himself and others.
But... "If in doubt, chicken out" is the best advice.
If you assume worst case and have to complete a full 180 deg rate 1 turn (whether it be level or not) - do you really want to spend a whole minute IMC below safety altitude covering a substantial area of real estate you can't see?
After many years of reverting from VFR to IFR, both planned and unplanned - the idea of that turn scares the bejeezus out of me.
As I said before, the 180 works when you still have some ground reference and can 'pop' back out of it - ie you haven't waited too late (late but not too late) to make your decision.
After many years of reverting from VFR to IFR, both planned and unplanned - the idea of that turn scares the bejeezus out of me.
As I said before, the 180 works when you still have some ground reference and can 'pop' back out of it - ie you haven't waited too late (late but not too late) to make your decision.
Only go flying on a CAVOK day perhaps
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That's why it can never be a case of "one size fits all" and "if in doubt, chicken out (early!)".
Plus, in a situation where you find yourself facing deteriorating weather, always bear in mind an escape route.
If you've turned back through 180 degrees, you're over the same terrain you were two minutes ago. BUT if you've been scud running for a prolonged period at low altitude over an area where it was risky to be flying at in the first place, then I agree that your only option is to climb.
Climbing into bad weather can also go very badly wrong:
https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/pipe...-february-2007
Plus, in a situation where you find yourself facing deteriorating weather, always bear in mind an escape route.
If you've turned back through 180 degrees, you're over the same terrain you were two minutes ago. BUT if you've been scud running for a prolonged period at low altitude over an area where it was risky to be flying at in the first place, then I agree that your only option is to climb.
Climbing into bad weather can also go very badly wrong:
https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/pipe...-february-2007
That event shows how important decent planning and Met appreciation is.
Poor decision making to attempt VFR transit when the TAFS and METARs were unsuitable - when you get airborne and go IMC at 200' you have got something wrong.
When you get into a situation where you are descending over water at twilight to try and get VMC beneath, you are a very long way from where you should have made a much better decision.
Maybe this is what should be emphasised for LAPL and the like.
Poor decision making to attempt VFR transit when the TAFS and METARs were unsuitable - when you get airborne and go IMC at 200' you have got something wrong.
When you get into a situation where you are descending over water at twilight to try and get VMC beneath, you are a very long way from where you should have made a much better decision.
Maybe this is what should be emphasised for LAPL and the like.