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Logging IFR time (UK)

Old 28th Jul 2016, 14:11
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Logging IFR time (UK)

Hello folks,
I have been told that in UK, when you are flying about 3000ft you can log that time as a IFR flight time.
I meant typical flight visual navigation from one aerodrome to another one when you are flying cruise flight about 3000ft, you can log that part of the fly like IFR. it is right?

Regards,
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Old 28th Jul 2016, 15:32
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Flights operated in accordance with instrument flight rules can clearly be logged as IFR flight.


Flight by sole reference to instruments is another matter.
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Old 28th Jul 2016, 18:44
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Pilots who hold a Part-FCL pilot licence may only fly under IFR in accordance with FCL.600:

FCL.600 IR General
Except as provided in FCL.825, operations under IFR on an aeroplane, helicopter, airship or powered-lift aircraft shall only be conducted by holders of a PPL, CPL, MPL and ATPL with an IR appropriate to the category
of aircraft or when undergoing skill testing or dual instruction.
FCL.825 refers to the EIR.

So no. Under Part-FCL, a 'typical flight visual navigation from one aerodrome to another one when you are flying cruise flight about 3000ft' may NOT be logged as IFR unless the pilot is operating in accordance with FCL.600 or FCL.825 in accordance with IFR.
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Old 28th Jul 2016, 22:28
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Hmmm, I for one would appreciate some clarity on this point. I know of a few fellow FIs, themselves holding IRs, who have on the face of it successfully circumvented FCL.915.IRI (which requires applicants for an IRI certificate to have completed a minimum of 800 hours of flight time under IFR of which at least 400 hours shall be in aeroplanes) by simply logging VFR instructional time as IFR. Quite how this was achieved by legitimate means I'm not sure, but I'm assured it was. I very much suspect this is what the OP is referring to. When I enquired how much of the claimed IFR time was gained in cloud (i.e. in IMC), it tended to all go very quiet. Clarity please....

HW
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Old 28th Jul 2016, 23:08
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For clarity, for the holder of an FI certificate the entry requirements to the IRI 'course' are reduced to 200 hours time under IFR. If you are a line pilot with no FI cert then it's the 800hrs. However, that's not the point here...

As Beagle states, to log IFR then you must be the holder of an Instrument Rating or IR(R) and following IF rules... 1,000ft above blah blah blah. It's irrelevant what conditions your in as IFR can and does take place in gin clear VMC. IFR outside CAS and without a minimum traffic service...... not for me, thanks.

I suspect there are instances of 'creative accounting' in some of the claims arriving at the Authority.....hence the quiet moments. Just sayin'.
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Old 29th Jul 2016, 09:21
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Personally, I log IFR when, err, I'm flying IFR in an aircraft legally authorised to do so.

Given the complications of modern licencing, I modified my logbook several years ago to have a separate column for "by sole reference to instruments"; unsurprisingly it's a smaller total.

If I'm not following Instrument Flight Rules, I don't log IFR. If I'm in visibility above VFR minima, I don't log "sole reference to instruments". If I'm IMC, I'm also IFR. If the aircraft is on PtF and thus the paperwork says "IFR proibited" I don't log IFR. When I wasn't qualified to fly IFR, I didn't log IFR.

I do deliberately set up quite a few, but not all, of my longer trips so that I do fly IFR and build up a few IFR hours - but that so far as I can see is perfectly reasonable.

Is it all that difficult?

G

Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 29th Jul 2016 at 12:09.
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Old 30th Jul 2016, 08:45
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There is no requirement for holders of UK issued licences to log IFR time.
Art 79:
a flight crew licence issued by the CAA under Part-FCL must keep a personal flying log in which the following information must be recorded:

(d) information about any special conditions under which the flight was conducted, including night flying and instrument flying; and
The requirement specifies Conditions, not Rules.

So long as we have regulations that include unaccountable requirements, we will see all manner of half cock ways of trying to achieve them!

A flight is either IFR or VFR it can't be both, but it can be in VMC in all cases.
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Old 30th Jul 2016, 09:09
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No absolute requirement to log it, but given you might need to declate your hours IFR at some point to become an IRI , sensible.

G
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Old 31st Jul 2016, 13:17
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Loggin IFR time during PPL/CPL instructing

Just not to start a new thread:

I've heard that some FI's are logging also student's IFR time during PPL/CPL

training in order to get their 200 IFR hours to start to instruct IR faster.

Is this a common practice or just another grey area?
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Old 31st Jul 2016, 14:52
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A flight is either IFR or VFR it can't be both, but it can be in VMC in all cases.
I often leave vfr from my base then pick up ifr. So yes you can do vfr and ifr in 1 flight.
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Old 31st Jul 2016, 22:17
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Originally Posted by maximus610
Just not to start a new thread:

I've heard that some FI's are logging also student's IFR time during PPL/CPL

training in order to get their 200 IFR hours to start to instruct IR faster.

Is this a common practice or just another grey area?



I have heard about that too, the instructor told me he wrote the instruction time in the aeroplane log book as PIC and in his own log book as PIC and IFR, not as an instructor.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 00:16
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simply logging VFR instructional time as IFR
If a flight was VFR then no IFR time can be logged.

I've heard that some FI's are logging also student's IFR time during PPL/CPL
If a student had IFR time then, as they were on the same flight, the instructor must also have had IFR time !

PPL and CPL are VFR Licences and require no IFR instruction.
(Any IF elements easily being conducted in VMC)

The problem is in the wording of Part-FCL that only requires Instructional Privileges if the flight is for a Licensing action (Licence/Rating Issue/Renewal/Revalidation) - not for teaching a subject.

I have heard about that too, the instructor told me he wrote the instruction time in the aeroplane log book as PIC and in his own log book as PIC and IFR, not as an instructor.
An Instructor is PIC (otherwise they are just a passenger).

If a PPL or CPL student is on board then, I would suggest, no IFR flight can be logged as the Instructional Privilege being used on that flight does not entitle IFR Instruction.

It may be that some Licence instructional flights do have a small amount of IFR flight time in them (using the PIC's qualification) eg to get through some bad weather or above a cloud layer. But, as this does not form part of the instruction that the student is receiving (and paying for) I would expect it to kept quiet, and not be logged as such.

Any Logging must be the same in both the Instructor's and Student's Log Books, and must match the Student's Training Record.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 07:41
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Isn't the confusing just coming from self-declared flight rules when flying without FPL?

I once learned that flight rules have to be declared before takeoff and are either VFR (V) or IFR (I, Y, Z). There is no such flight as partVFR-partIFR.

If instruction takes place, FI is PIC and logging IFR seems perfectly fine. Yes, I heard the trickypicky rumor that FI log more student flights as IFR then they are conducted, but as long as we allow IFR@G w/o FPL I see no other way as pledge to intelligence.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 08:27
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I once learned that flight rules have to be declared before takeoff and are either VFR (V) or IFR (I, Y, Z). There is no such flight as partVFR-partIFR
Who taught this nonsense?

G
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 09:05
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Who taught this nonsense?
My flight school and my fellow FI on the continent when I was doing education according to JAR.FCL. As a strict rule we were taught a flight conducted does have only one filing and it has to be determined in advance on the ground, same as who is PIC, as part of a thorough flight preparation. I have to admit, I did not check the EASA changes and with common AFIL now there may be some change in it.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 09:51
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ChickenHouse,

Take a typical IR training/test route. Filed as an IFR flight but near the end it is normal to call 'Cancel IFR' when going around from the final missed approach into the visual circuit. Therefore you have flown under both IFR and VFR rules in the same flight.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 09:55
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School and country name please Chickenhouse ?

G
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 11:08
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it is normal to call 'Cancel IFR' when going around from the final missed approach into the visual circuit
I agree that is possible, but I would dispute it is normal - I have never done it. Why not just fly the visual circuit under IFR (just like we used to have to do at Night in the UK)?

Even a combined MEP/IR-ME flight test could, I would suggest, be completed completely IFR if so wished.

Not possible for a combined SEP/IR-SE flight test due to the Engine Failure test element not allowing maintenance of 1.000' above highest object, etc.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 11:59
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Well it was standard procedure at the school where I trained. Agree that others may have different views. Point I was making was that you can fly to both IFR and VFR on the same flight.

Re night flying, is that not SVFR?
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 16:22
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It certainly is possible to fly VfR and IFR on the same flight.
A regular trip is departing a private strip SE England VFR, and join Airways IFR at Goodwood. Then have to cancel IFR near Frankfurt for a VFR arrival at another small strip.
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