Problem checklists
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 1,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In small GA aircraft checklists are just reminders of what to check for infrequent flyers.
Like the guy I flew with last week. Been flying for 40 odd years. Doesn't fly often these days (less than 2 hours since Christmas last).
Using memory and forgets several things and does things like changing tanks just before take-off.
Like the guy I flew with last week. Been flying for 40 odd years. Doesn't fly often these days (less than 2 hours since Christmas last).
Using memory and forgets several things and does things like changing tanks just before take-off.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: France
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are many different ways to design and use checklists.
As long as the the pilot uses his CL consistently, and that the CL provides adequate safety for the flight, it's OK. I don't think you should try to fix something that works, because changing the habits of a pilot has drawbacks.
When something is wrong with the way the pilot uses his CL, or with the CL itself, for a CRI, the challenge is to find the easiest way for the pilot to amend his habits and CL .
As pilots come from very different backgrounds, I think it has to be tailored to each student.
As long as the the pilot uses his CL consistently, and that the CL provides adequate safety for the flight, it's OK. I don't think you should try to fix something that works, because changing the habits of a pilot has drawbacks.
When something is wrong with the way the pilot uses his CL, or with the CL itself, for a CRI, the challenge is to find the easiest way for the pilot to amend his habits and CL .
As pilots come from very different backgrounds, I think it has to be tailored to each student.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A few days ago I was trying to convert a new PPL from the C172 he learned on over to an AA5. He came to the flight equipped with a commercially produced checklist - the particular offending article was published by Pooleys.
6 pages of exterior checks, actively encouraging my student to go around reading the checklist carefully and barely glancing at the aeroplane.
- Take off and airfield approach checks that jumped all over the cockpit, and seemed deliberately designed to prevent memorisation. Okay, I don't actually mind somebody doing read-do on pre-t/o checks, but I really want airfield approach / downwind checks memorised thank you very much, so let's make it easy to do so.
- I asked my student to stall the aeroplane. He said he couldn't remember the HASELL checks - so I calmly said "right, get your checklist out and remind yourself quickly". It turned out that they weren't in there - no variation on HASELL, just missing altogether. Okay, he should have memorised that as well, but where the heck is he supposed to learn it from if not the checklist he has from the aeroplane?
If the detail had been briefed you would have discovered the student couldnt remember the pre stalling safety checks, which is hardly an unusual or unexpected surprise if you are an experienced instructor.
As pilot in command you should have been fully conversant with the checklist being used before departure, the mistake was yours, not the students.
Where was he supposed to learn them from?
Alternately, I occasionally back-end in a 4 engine jet and am trained as "pilot's assistant" for challenge-response using the main checklist if required: that's two sides of A4 card ! We can all cope with that!
So who out there is writing and perpetuating these badly constructed, illogical checklists which alternately miss out important information (like HASELL checks) and encourage massive over-reliance on the printed checks (like the walkaround) ?
And what can we do about them?
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hotel Gypsy
Posts: 2,821
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I examined a middle-aged chap the other day for his PPL(A). The ATO that he had attended had done a good job ............... in teaching him how to fly like an airline pilot.
As a conscientious examiner, I took a look at the ATO's 'approved' checklist and was left wondering whether it was a checklist or an amalgamation of pre-flight briefs, POH/AFM and local orders. There were some particularly good aide-memoires incorporated but the was also a lot of rubbish that had little place in a checklist. I was also particularly tickled by the after take-off checks which included the obligatory landing/taxi light on/off nonsense and TRIM!
FFS, TRIM as an item in a checklist!
Perhaps the next iteration will include Bank, Balance, Back Pressure as a checklist item for turning?
PS. Bloggs passed. Well done.
As a conscientious examiner, I took a look at the ATO's 'approved' checklist and was left wondering whether it was a checklist or an amalgamation of pre-flight briefs, POH/AFM and local orders. There were some particularly good aide-memoires incorporated but the was also a lot of rubbish that had little place in a checklist. I was also particularly tickled by the after take-off checks which included the obligatory landing/taxi light on/off nonsense and TRIM!
FFS, TRIM as an item in a checklist!
Perhaps the next iteration will include Bank, Balance, Back Pressure as a checklist item for turning? PS. Bloggs passed. Well done.
Moderator
Thread Starter
Pull what - you may rest assured that I did address those things, conduct a fairly lengthy brief, and had my own checklist. I just wasn't to be honest prepared for the level of "checklist crutch" mentality I met on the specific occasion: combined with such a poor commercial checklist, or would have covered the specific issues more thoroughly in the brief. Feel free to disagree with this, but I generally hope when checking out a qualified pilot on an aeroplane, particularly if they've flown the type before (this chap had for part of his PPL training), that they'll come having read the POH and ensured that they have a workable checklist for the type. My task is to help them operate it safely to an acceptable system, not necessarily impose my personal preferences - there are other "good" ways to do things than mine.
Also, given that somebody is a qualified pilot, I shouldn't have to brief every aspect of how to fly an aeroplane - we'd be there all day and never get airborne on checkouts. But, the thread's about checklists, if that's alright with you.
And for what it's worth, I subsequently talked to the two schools and two syndicates on the airfield who use the same aircraft type, and offered (and they agreed) to create an airfield standard simple-and-useable checklist that we can all buy into. I've since emailed a draft to them all and am just starting to get feedback, as well as planning to test it myself this week.
Yes, and I posted on a forum about it
G
Also, given that somebody is a qualified pilot, I shouldn't have to brief every aspect of how to fly an aeroplane - we'd be there all day and never get airborne on checkouts. But, the thread's about checklists, if that's alright with you.
And for what it's worth, I subsequently talked to the two schools and two syndicates on the airfield who use the same aircraft type, and offered (and they agreed) to create an airfield standard simple-and-useable checklist that we can all buy into. I've since emailed a draft to them all and am just starting to get feedback, as well as planning to test it myself this week.
Yes, and I posted on a forum about it
G
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 14th Jun 2015 at 15:34.
Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: With Wonko, outside the Asylum.
Age: 56
Posts: 489
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmm, knowing an acronym doesn't amount to understanding what it's there to stand for.
Likewise,
And abuse of acronyms like that simply amplifies the chasm between those who understand and benefit and those who don't and won't. I feel sorry for their passengers.
Likewise,
And abuse of acronyms like that simply amplifies the chasm between those who understand and benefit and those who don't and won't. I feel sorry for their passengers.
I wonder if there is an element of money making here.
Lets take the latter. Engine starting and oil pressure switch starts the money coming from your savings. After Start check list Challenge and Response depending on how many superfluous items involved could take at least two minutes. At $300 per hour hiring rate that is $5 a minute or $10 just to read the checklist. More if the instructor is a talkative type.
At the holding point, carry out before run up checklist then the actual run up checklist followed by before take off checklist reading. Potential for five minutes of challenge and response which costs another $25.
Airborne no charge for checklist reading. Shut down checklist reading at end of flight costs one minute another $5. Total charge for reading checklists at least $40. The lengthier the checklist designed by the flying school, the more challenge and responses and more of your money flows into the flying school coffers. Have flying schools never heard of the left to right scan for before start, after start, pre-run up etc?
Paper Check list reading in the air means heads down in the circuit when eyes should be outside and head swivelling
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: With Wonko, outside the Asylum.
Age: 56
Posts: 489
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry, I genuinely don't think I've ever met a flying club owner clever and devious enough to create long checklists to create profit. Little god syndrome, causing them to think they know best, certainly. Expert syndrome, causing them to know they know best, for sure. But none of them would sacrifice their holy ability in the cockpit on the altar of inappropriate drills as some are suggesting.
The fundamental problem with many flying schools is that their owners have no idea about business. They become terribly uninviting places, unkempt and uncared-for. That's one good reason many fail. I can't make all of that marry up with scheming folk adding unnecessary checklist items to gain a few more moments airborne.
The fundamental problem with many flying schools is that their owners have no idea about business. They become terribly uninviting places, unkempt and uncared-for. That's one good reason many fail. I can't make all of that marry up with scheming folk adding unnecessary checklist items to gain a few more moments airborne.
I think the old chestnut "Never ascribe malice to a situation that can be fully explained by the exercise of incompetence"; applies here......
Moderator
Thread Starter
Consequences, or never volunteer
So, in the background, I've been consulting with two schools and two syndicates at home airfield, and produced and distributed a mutually agreed "best practice" checklist for the type I fly most often. Everybody says they're happy.
Except that the CFI of one school, looked at it and said "Brilliant, any chance of producing similar ones for the other two types we have as well".
What was that old military thing about volunteering....
Ah well, I'll get my reward in heaven, should I ever make it there.
G
Except that the CFI of one school, looked at it and said "Brilliant, any chance of producing similar ones for the other two types we have as well".
What was that old military thing about volunteering....
Ah well, I'll get my reward in heaven, should I ever make it there.
G
So, in the background, I've been consulting with two schools and two syndicates at home airfield, and produced and distributed a mutually agreed "best practice" checklist for the type I fly most often. Everybody says they're happy.
Except that the CFI of one school, looked at it and said "Brilliant, any chance of producing similar ones for the other two types we have as well".
What was that old military thing about volunteering....
Ah well, I'll get my reward in heaven, should I ever make it there.
G
Except that the CFI of one school, looked at it and said "Brilliant, any chance of producing similar ones for the other two types we have as well".
What was that old military thing about volunteering....
Ah well, I'll get my reward in heaven, should I ever make it there.
G
"They sentenced me to 20 years for trying to change the system from within, first we take Oxford and then we take Bournemouth"
With apologies to Leonard Cohen
