Flying Instructors & Examiners A place for instructors to communicate with one another because some of them get a bit tired of the attitude that instructing is the lowest form of aviation, as seems to prevail on some of the other forums!

PPL FI

Old 4th Dec 2014, 20:18
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Age: 46
Posts: 5
PPL FI

Dear Sirs,
would you be kind to advise on:
1. Can an EASA PPL FI (without CPL or ATPL TK) do the bi-annual checks for PPL SEP?

2. Can an EASA PPL FI (without CPL or ATPL TK but with Night rating, Aerobatic rating and sailplane towing rating) do the Night rating, Aerobatic rating and Sailplane towing rating training for PPL holders?

Best regards,
Mario Hrelja
hrelja is offline  
Old 5th Dec 2014, 09:04
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 6,366
Part FCL:
FCL.915.FI FI Prerequisites
An applicant for an FI certificate shall:

(a) in the case of the FI(A) and:...
............
(2) hold at least a PPL(A) and have:
(i) met the requirements for CPL theoretical knowledge, except for an FI(A) providing training for the LAPL(A) only;
Therefore; you are restricted to teaching for the LAPL(A) only!

If you obtain a CRI rating you could do all of the oither items! It makes no sense, but thats EASA
There are many FIs who did not originally have to take the CPL TK exams who have grandfather rights to teach PPL. So far I have not seen anything in a LAPL FIs rating to indicate any form of limitation, so how is anyone supposed to know or regulate this?
Whopity is offline  
Old 5th Dec 2014, 09:13
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 25,967
The regulation Whopity quotes was a last minute (French?) bodge introduced when the 'LAFI' proposal was canned.

So yes, if you obtain a CRI certificate you may conduct the training flight for PPL/SEP holders, but not as a LAPL-restricted FI.

The whole daft nonsense would disappear if EASA were to adopt the original proposal not to require CPL-level theoretical knowledge for PPL FIs. But they won't, as certain Member States will vote against any such change as they won't support what they perceive as non-compliance with ICAO requirements....
BEagle is offline  
Old 5th Dec 2014, 09:17
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,501
The other implication that is often not understood is that, until next April, such an instructor may not conduct 'trial lessons' except at an ATO that holds approval to instruct for the LAPL(A). However, given the recent legislation on 'introductory flights', this should not be too much of a problem, except for the restricted FI looking to build his 'instructional' hours.
BillieBob is online now  
Old 5th Dec 2014, 16:25
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Here and there
Posts: 521
The whole daft nonsense would disappear if EASA were to adopt the original proposal not to require CPL-level theoretical knowledge for PPL FIs.
If you remember, the original proposal was not for the FI to not have CPL TK because that's an ICAO requirement - it was to allow the FIE to assess CPL TK during the Assessment of Competence which would meet ICAO requirements.

ifitaint...
ifitaintboeing is offline  
Old 5th Dec 2014, 20:23
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 413
Gents, as this is a matter close to my heart, is there any way of getting a change so that a PPL FI without passes in EASA CPL knowledge exams can teach a PPL?

You've got people getting trained on their FI courses to the exact same standard, regardless of whether they have CPL exam passes or not, and who pass the same test to be allowed to obtain their FI rating. Plus, as previously mentioned, a load of the BCPL crowd from years ago are happily teaching PPLs, while their modern counterparts are stuck to teaching LAPL/NPPL for the foreseeable future. So either pull people's (B)CPLs and downgrade them to PPL FIs (either with or without CPL knowledge) with the relevant instructional privileges, or just accept that an FI is an FI, and can teach a licence that they have themselves. Perhaps only bring in a CPL requirement to teach at that level?

If it's an ICAO compliance argument, then just get people to take the FAA commercial pilot written at Farnborough, and hey presto they now possess ICAO CPL knowledge, and haven't had to spend 1-3000 for a distance learning course, 6 months of study, and 2 weeks stuck in a classroom miles from home with all the associated accommodation costs, while taking time off work to pass a large amount of exams which lack relevance, cost more money, and have to be taken when and where the CAA deem fit.

To answer the OPs second question, no, because having the ratings alone, only allows you to do them yourself. To teach them, you have to lift the restrictions from your FI rating, which entails further training, and most likely expense to the CAA to add the new privileges to your licence.
sapperkenno is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2014, 15:42
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: France
Posts: 319
The problem would be solved a better way if the CPL theoretical knowledge training and exam were meaningful and fit for purpose, as I think that everybody agrees that a FI needs a more advanced theoretical training than a private pilot.
172510 is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2014, 19:29
  #8 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Age: 46
Posts: 5
Thank you all, for your swift replays.
hrelja is offline  
Old 7th Dec 2014, 18:51
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 319
The problem would be solved a better way if the CPL theoretical knowledge training and exam were meaningful and fit for purpose, as I think that everybody agrees that a FI needs a more advanced theoretical training than a private pilot.
Agree with this. Strangely not one of my PPL students has ever asked me how many fire extinguishers are required on a 747
dobbin1 is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2014, 23:55
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 62
PPL FI

Hello. Some advice please.....
I have had a CRI rating for a number of years and really get a lot out of the different type of flying. I now want to do the full FI rating, but I don't have the time to complete the CPL written's. Is it really practical without the CPL?

Are there many PPL/SEP holders, flying as LAPL-restricted FI's out there?
Has it proved to be beneficial?

Also, I assume most students now will complete their LAPL's first and then upgrade either straight away or once they have built up some experience.

Finally, I assume when I do have the time to complete the CPL, I assume the LAPL restriction is just lifted?

Many thanks in advance
IMC1 is offline  
Old 27th Dec 2014, 07:56
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 6,366
Finally, I assume when I do have the time to complete the CPL, I assume the LAPL restriction is just lifted?
A fair assumption however they do not appear to place any limitation on the licence in the first place, making it a nightmare to administer.
Are there many PPL/SEP holders, flying as LAPL-restricted FI's out there?
Has it proved to be beneficial?
There are a few LAPL FIs, but alas no LAPL students to train as yet. So a lot of money spent, with nothing to do with the end product!
Whopity is offline  
Old 27th Dec 2014, 09:25
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 319
Are there many PPL/SEP holders, flying as LAPL-restricted FI's out there?
I don't think so. Why would a school want to take on an instructor who is limited to LAPL only, when there is no shortage of FIs who have done the CPL theory and can instruct for PPL etc?

Also, I assume most students now will complete their LAPL's first and then upgrade either straight away or once they have built up some experience.
In my experience, the vast majority of new students want the full PPL, with only medically restricted individuals going the NPPL/LAPL route. In the real world the amount of training required to get to test standard will be more or less the same.
dobbin1 is offline  
Old 27th Dec 2014, 19:09
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: France
Posts: 319
I now want to do the full FI rating, but I don't have the time to complete the CPL written's. -
How can you have the time to do the full FI course (circa 30 full days of training) and not the time to do a CPL written (25 hours of ground training + some home work you may spread over 18 months)?
172510 is offline  
Old 27th Dec 2014, 20:43
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 13,940
Originally Posted by dobbin1 View Post
Agree with this. Strangely not one of my PPL students has ever asked me how many fire extinguishers are required on a 747
I have actually used that, but in the day job, not instructing.

On the other hand I have certainly used the enhanced nav and met knowledge that I obtained through the CPL TK, when instructing - it's not all useless.

G
Genghis the Engineer is offline  
Old 27th Dec 2014, 21:21
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 62
Thanks for all the replies.
Sapperkanno suggests that an America CPL written's passed as an ICAO compliant CPL will suffice for a UK PPL/FI. The requirements for a UK CPL written's pass still seem overkill for a UK PPL/FI rating. Any suggestions?
IMC1 is offline  
Old 27th Dec 2014, 21:36
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 413
I said IT SHOULD, but they'll never accept that. Same way they won't allow a simple conversion of FAA CPL/MEIR without all the mandatory groundschool nonsense.
sapperkenno is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2014, 08:03
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: York
Age: 50
Posts: 788
Therefore; you are restricted to teaching for the LAPL(A) only!
You can also teach for the NPPL, SSEA, SLMG and microlight ratings if suitably qualified.

If you obtain a CRI rating you could do all of the other items! It makes no sense, but thats EASA
Apparently you could also add a CRI rating to your PPL after completing the Fic course. However the CAA are currently saying they can’t do this.

The other implication that is often not understood is that, until next April, such an instructor may not conduct 'trial lessons' except at an ATO that holds approval to instruct for the LAPL(A)
Are you sure about this? As a LAFI can teach for the NPPL and all rf are able to do this then are they not able to do trial flights?

Why would a school want to take on an instructor who is limited to LAPL only, when there is no shortage of FIs who have done the CPL theory and can instruct for PPL etc?
Because some schools need instructors with a range of skills that the average 200 hour fATPL/FI holder doesn’t have eg tailwheel, TMG/SLMG, vintage, microlight etc
Mickey Kaye is online now  
Old 28th Dec 2014, 08:30
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 6,366
a load of the BCPL crowd from years ago are happily teaching PPLs,
What many have forgotten is that these people completed a "Pre-entry Test" before commencing the FI Course; this was deemed to meet the ICAO requirement which does not specify CPL exams, but demonstration of CPL Level Knowledge!
Whopity is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2014, 18:48
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 1,082
"Pre-entry Test"
Unfortunately, these 'Tests' were conducted by the same FIC organisations who were competing for their business, and so became a 'box ticking' exercise. I never heared of anyone failing.


MJ
Mach Jump is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2014, 19:15
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 6,366
How many FI Course failures have you heard of?

Whilst it was once a reasonable assumption that the knlowledge gained in obtaining a CPL was a reasonable prerequisite for teacing the PPL, one has to ask the question how much of the material in the current European theoretical exams has any relevance at all!
Whopity is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.