How do you "teach" SA?
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The trouble with vocalising everything is that they can't be listening whilst talking.
Having spent an hour in the circuit listening, in excruciating detail, to blogs not actually 'nailing it' and not really listening to me or other traffic.
Having spent an hour in the circuit listening, in excruciating detail, to blogs not actually 'nailing it' and not really listening to me or other traffic.
Indeed part of SA is the adopting of sterile cockpit discipline in areas of high work load, the circuit being an obvious one
MJ saying that SA is not part of an FI course and a CRMI course etc is hardly a few mistakes. Saying that you dont even need to watch a first solo or debrief them afterwards is hardly a few mistakes.
You say he has decades of experience, not that he has, one year as an instructor I believe but how does having decades of experience suddenly make you knowledgeable anyway. I am sure we all know pilots who have been flying for years who are not only very poor instructors but also very poor pilots, I certainly do and one or two of them are on here!
PS... Have you noticed that most of the worlds most serious air disasters have been caused by very experienced professional pilots.
You say he has decades of experience, not that he has, one year as an instructor I believe but how does having decades of experience suddenly make you knowledgeable anyway. I am sure we all know pilots who have been flying for years who are not only very poor instructors but also very poor pilots, I certainly do and one or two of them are on here!
PS... Have you noticed that most of the worlds most serious air disasters have been caused by very experienced professional pilots.
This is illustrating something I think. A few people have quoted published documents saying that SA is supposed to be substantially taught. A few others have said that it's not being taught. Most people agree that there's no clear and agreed best practice in how to teach SA.
So...
- What happens in reality, and what's in the published docs (regarding teaching SA), do not apparently match.
- There doesn't seem to be a body of knowledge of best practice on how to fix that.
That would appear to be a bad thing. Whilst most pilots develop a working skill in SA, it does rather seem to happen despite, rather than because, of the formal syllabus. But we all agree I think that good SA is important.
So discussion of how to develop good SA in student and qualified pilots, is surely useful. Referring to the various syllabi, doesn't in itself progress that very much.
G
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 16th Jul 2013 at 14:15.
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Right...
Situation awareness is quoted a lot of places.
And why not it is a good thing which we all strive to have. But I still haven't seen an perfect definition of it. We have the 4 pillars, we have the fancy bubble diagrams with a dark bit in the middle but all it really does is visualise a concept which to be honest varies depending what you are doing. You might be considered to have good Situation awareness in IMC in a radar controlled environment. But a pretty awful one when you hit the microlight in VMC in class G in procedural environment because you had your head down looking at the instruments which were spot on for what you were intending to do.
But taking first the FI course, there is ground school which again the term Situation awareness is used frequently. But how to teach it nope not there. Basic flying skills are meant to develop it but not out right teach it. Over a period of time it develops as experience is gained by the PPL and capacity is released from handling the aircraft. A big part of it is knowing what is coming next.
CRMI yes it is teaching you a form of situational awareness, that is how your classroom is interacting and you are being taught to facilitate the discussions to draw them towards certain facts and principles. In actual fact the CRMI course is open to all aircrew both cabin crew and pilots. I notice the comments about global have gone. But global is a group of talented cabin crew who are both instructors and examiners for the CRMI course. They just don't have any experience to teach aircrew situation awareness in the cockpit environment and that's not what the course is design to teach. During the course a TRI came in and did the statutory notechs lecture for the pilots. All the rest was done by cabin crew who have a highly developed situation awareness for if you can't dazzle them with brilliance you can baffle them with bull**** when it comes to facilitating a crm course and also the location of a decent glass of red wine (which personally as a Captain I think is distinctly lacking in some cabin crews training)
In airlines it is extremely common for cabin crew to run the yearly CRM courses. In fact I would say in the main they are better at it than the pilots with the same qualification. The only pilot only given courses are one day of the initial for pilots and the command crm course. So although the term situational awareness is used actually situational awareness isn't taught. Tools and methods of avoiding or recovering from a loose of Situation awareness is what its all about. See the threat, stop the threat.
In the main situational awareness is facilitated by SOP's and checklists in a multicrew environment, briefings are formalised, information is in a standard format and we train them to act in a certain, say certain things at particular times so that each bit of the flight is the same day in day out.
Doesn't stop pilots though smacking perfectly airworthy aircraft into the ground.
Now the core course. Is basically the principles of learning and the teaching/lecturing briefing style again its a course on how to instruct the practical items of flying a multicrew multiengine aircraft. SA isn't taught on a type rating flying the aircraft is you meant to have it as a CPL/IR holder already. If there isn't sufficient SA to safely operate the aircraft you fail. Short and sweet. They may allow further training to give you capacity flying the machine to allow you more capacity to be diverted to situational awareness but they don't teach it.
Not all pilots have the SA to be the Captain of a commercial aircraft, not all commercial pilots have the SA to be the Captain of a multicrew CAT aircraft. Not all Captains of CAT aircraft have the SA required to be line trainers.
If you could teach it there wouldn't be anyone failing flight tests and everyone would go into the LHS and everyone would be a line trainer.
Situation awareness is quoted a lot of places.
And why not it is a good thing which we all strive to have. But I still haven't seen an perfect definition of it. We have the 4 pillars, we have the fancy bubble diagrams with a dark bit in the middle but all it really does is visualise a concept which to be honest varies depending what you are doing. You might be considered to have good Situation awareness in IMC in a radar controlled environment. But a pretty awful one when you hit the microlight in VMC in class G in procedural environment because you had your head down looking at the instruments which were spot on for what you were intending to do.
But taking first the FI course, there is ground school which again the term Situation awareness is used frequently. But how to teach it nope not there. Basic flying skills are meant to develop it but not out right teach it. Over a period of time it develops as experience is gained by the PPL and capacity is released from handling the aircraft. A big part of it is knowing what is coming next.
CRMI yes it is teaching you a form of situational awareness, that is how your classroom is interacting and you are being taught to facilitate the discussions to draw them towards certain facts and principles. In actual fact the CRMI course is open to all aircrew both cabin crew and pilots. I notice the comments about global have gone. But global is a group of talented cabin crew who are both instructors and examiners for the CRMI course. They just don't have any experience to teach aircrew situation awareness in the cockpit environment and that's not what the course is design to teach. During the course a TRI came in and did the statutory notechs lecture for the pilots. All the rest was done by cabin crew who have a highly developed situation awareness for if you can't dazzle them with brilliance you can baffle them with bull**** when it comes to facilitating a crm course and also the location of a decent glass of red wine (which personally as a Captain I think is distinctly lacking in some cabin crews training)
In airlines it is extremely common for cabin crew to run the yearly CRM courses. In fact I would say in the main they are better at it than the pilots with the same qualification. The only pilot only given courses are one day of the initial for pilots and the command crm course. So although the term situational awareness is used actually situational awareness isn't taught. Tools and methods of avoiding or recovering from a loose of Situation awareness is what its all about. See the threat, stop the threat.
In the main situational awareness is facilitated by SOP's and checklists in a multicrew environment, briefings are formalised, information is in a standard format and we train them to act in a certain, say certain things at particular times so that each bit of the flight is the same day in day out.
Doesn't stop pilots though smacking perfectly airworthy aircraft into the ground.
Now the core course. Is basically the principles of learning and the teaching/lecturing briefing style again its a course on how to instruct the practical items of flying a multicrew multiengine aircraft. SA isn't taught on a type rating flying the aircraft is you meant to have it as a CPL/IR holder already. If there isn't sufficient SA to safely operate the aircraft you fail. Short and sweet. They may allow further training to give you capacity flying the machine to allow you more capacity to be diverted to situational awareness but they don't teach it.
Not all pilots have the SA to be the Captain of a commercial aircraft, not all commercial pilots have the SA to be the Captain of a multicrew CAT aircraft. Not all Captains of CAT aircraft have the SA required to be line trainers.
If you could teach it there wouldn't be anyone failing flight tests and everyone would go into the LHS and everyone would be a line trainer.
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Half wrote that before my early this morning.
The simple fact is that apart from a lot of quotes on what the regulations say Pull what shows absolutely zero touch with the practical application of said regulations in the real world. The context is taken away from the norm and also the application.
The initial bun fight over the dealing with a first solo had over a hundred years worth of instructor experience and 10'000s of thousand of hours telling him that he was talking rubbish and it was perfectly normal practise.
I have no doud't in my mind that he is a walter mitty sciolists type who seems to get gratification from arguing the toss online and wanting to be seen as the guru with no challengers.
Simple fact is that to anyone with any experience its blatantly obvious that his skills with google far exceed the skills which he is discussing.
And BKK as a newly upgraded captain you should know that you can't change personality. A crm course for pull what has as much chance of changing him as a crm course has of changing me from being a fat baldy Ugly(thanks G) training captain that swears to much.
And I would go with Fox and the main point is that it COACHABLE and not teachable.
As trainers and instructors we can give hints and prompts and a safe environment to develop in. But actually teach all the little processes that go through my head on a days flying. I more than likely don't know about 50% of them. Some are more than likely running at a sub conscience level giving those 5th sense warnings that something is brewing.
But if the pilot only has a half pint pot and requires a gallon jug to pass the test there won't be much you can do about it if the half pot is already full.
What did this student do for there hour building? Was it flogging around FL, A to A bimbles from a small field?
The whole point of the hour building is to develop the skills from PPL and allow the pilots SA to develop to that required for the commercial test through experence. Maybe the 100 hours hour building have been wasted without the pilot being stretched or developed past PPL level.
Oh and your latest account has joined your others on my ignore list pull what.
The simple fact is that apart from a lot of quotes on what the regulations say Pull what shows absolutely zero touch with the practical application of said regulations in the real world. The context is taken away from the norm and also the application.
The initial bun fight over the dealing with a first solo had over a hundred years worth of instructor experience and 10'000s of thousand of hours telling him that he was talking rubbish and it was perfectly normal practise.
I have no doud't in my mind that he is a walter mitty sciolists type who seems to get gratification from arguing the toss online and wanting to be seen as the guru with no challengers.
Simple fact is that to anyone with any experience its blatantly obvious that his skills with google far exceed the skills which he is discussing.
And BKK as a newly upgraded captain you should know that you can't change personality. A crm course for pull what has as much chance of changing him as a crm course has of changing me from being a fat baldy Ugly(thanks G) training captain that swears to much.
And I would go with Fox and the main point is that it COACHABLE and not teachable.
As trainers and instructors we can give hints and prompts and a safe environment to develop in. But actually teach all the little processes that go through my head on a days flying. I more than likely don't know about 50% of them. Some are more than likely running at a sub conscience level giving those 5th sense warnings that something is brewing.
But if the pilot only has a half pint pot and requires a gallon jug to pass the test there won't be much you can do about it if the half pot is already full.
What did this student do for there hour building? Was it flogging around FL, A to A bimbles from a small field?
The whole point of the hour building is to develop the skills from PPL and allow the pilots SA to develop to that required for the commercial test through experence. Maybe the 100 hours hour building have been wasted without the pilot being stretched or developed past PPL level.
Oh and your latest account has joined your others on my ignore list pull what.
Last edited by mad_jock; 16th Jul 2013 at 15:14.
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And G you actually are better placed to get the current research on the subject if you have access to a uni library and the journal reports.
There have been and running currently quite a large volume of research on the subject. NASA seem to have a lot going as you would expect.
The basic stuff for GA there is a bit of in the FAA archives but again plenty of what you should have but very little on the development of it in the pilot.
There have been and running currently quite a large volume of research on the subject. NASA seem to have a lot going as you would expect.
The basic stuff for GA there is a bit of in the FAA archives but again plenty of what you should have but very little on the development of it in the pilot.
A brief literature review uncovers relatively little - much about analysing what SA is, but most of that is at-least a decade old, and I could find just about nothing on aircrew training in the academic literature.
This didn't really surprise me. A disturbing fact is that most aspects of what we group nowadays as "CRM" are not backed up by much peer reviewed research and is essentially about expert (but largely unsubstantiated) opinions. One of these days, I'd like to help address that, but it's unlikely to happen this month.
G
This didn't really surprise me. A disturbing fact is that most aspects of what we group nowadays as "CRM" are not backed up by much peer reviewed research and is essentially about expert (but largely unsubstantiated) opinions. One of these days, I'd like to help address that, but it's unlikely to happen this month.
G
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Oh you should know by now that I can't see the rubbish that you have written
But to point out I was a year full time instructor before going to fly the line.
I have gone through a couple of renewals as people can see by your other walter mitty character quoting that I had been to a seminar so that's at least 6 years experience actively teaching at PPL level, my rating went out a few months ago. Not to mention 4 years as a line trainer which if you didn't know doesn't have a formal rating attached to it.
So G estimate of a decade is pretty good.
But to point out I was a year full time instructor before going to fly the line.
I have gone through a couple of renewals as people can see by your other walter mitty character quoting that I had been to a seminar so that's at least 6 years experience actively teaching at PPL level, my rating went out a few months ago. Not to mention 4 years as a line trainer which if you didn't know doesn't have a formal rating attached to it.
So G estimate of a decade is pretty good.
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Oh you should know by now that I can't see the rubbish that you have written
In fact you seem to be getting very confused about who is saying what. You also seem to think that the Global information isnt there anymore. I think youve lost situation awareness Jock.
It's a shame this thread has degenerated the way it has especially given the topic!
Anyway, out of curiousity I'd be interested in a brief guide as to how one teaches CRM/SA to ab initio. When I do teach I use the five point brief and I guess it would come under "airmanship"?
BBK
ps that's
Aim, Airmanship, Ex brief, Sortie brief and Check of understanding.
Anyway, out of curiousity I'd be interested in a brief guide as to how one teaches CRM/SA to ab initio. When I do teach I use the five point brief and I guess it would come under "airmanship"?
BBK
ps that's
Aim, Airmanship, Ex brief, Sortie brief and Check of understanding.
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The thing with CRM as well is that it seems to go through phases and a bit like management theory depends on the theory of the year.
The core subjects on errors and human factors stays the same ish but the other soft stuff changes after nearly every high profile crash. It swings from touchie group hugs to more command and follow but don't let the captain kill you. And it also depends as well on the person training it and their personal take on it.
And some EASA inspectors seem to try and spread to put it blunty "French" style of CRM. One of them want us to replace all references to Captain to CM1 and FO to CM2 and line training Captain was to be changed to line operations facilitator or some such pish. When asked why all he could bleat about was that it was industry standard. Maybe for ATR and Airbus operators it is, but there is no need to inflict that pish on the rest of us.
Yes it is BKK if you use the edit ignore list function under your profile and add the pull what and the other mitty users, it turns into a decent thread again.
SA is a function of airmanship and vice versa. Improving one improves the other.
In some ways we could define both as applied common sense, has anyone got any idea how to train common sense into someone?
The core subjects on errors and human factors stays the same ish but the other soft stuff changes after nearly every high profile crash. It swings from touchie group hugs to more command and follow but don't let the captain kill you. And it also depends as well on the person training it and their personal take on it.
And some EASA inspectors seem to try and spread to put it blunty "French" style of CRM. One of them want us to replace all references to Captain to CM1 and FO to CM2 and line training Captain was to be changed to line operations facilitator or some such pish. When asked why all he could bleat about was that it was industry standard. Maybe for ATR and Airbus operators it is, but there is no need to inflict that pish on the rest of us.
Yes it is BKK if you use the edit ignore list function under your profile and add the pull what and the other mitty users, it turns into a decent thread again.
SA is a function of airmanship and vice versa. Improving one improves the other.
In some ways we could define both as applied common sense, has anyone got any idea how to train common sense into someone?
Last edited by mad_jock; 16th Jul 2013 at 17:13.
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MJ: Just to remind you, this is the information that you think isnt on here anymore in relation to a CRMI course on which you said very clearly
"IT IS ALSO NOT COVERED ON A CRMI COURSE."
"IT IS ALSO NOT COVERED ON A CRMI COURSE."
What MJ said was:
Quote:
Its not covered in The flight instructors course.
Its also not covered in the CRMI course.
And its also not covered in the CORE course for TRI.
Not covered in the Line trainers course either.
Which is totally wrong, below for instance is Globals CRMI Course
Global Air Training
CRMI COURSE
Day Three
Delegate practical delivery (info processing, situational awareness, implications & management of conflict, decision making, workload, leadership)
Case study analysis linking to Human error & TEM
Any pilot, instructor or otherwise, who thinks SA is not part of CRM should not be anywhere near an aircraft.
Quote:
Its not covered in The flight instructors course.
Its also not covered in the CRMI course.
And its also not covered in the CORE course for TRI.
Not covered in the Line trainers course either.
Which is totally wrong, below for instance is Globals CRMI Course
Global Air Training
CRMI COURSE
Day Three
Delegate practical delivery (info processing, situational awareness, implications & management of conflict, decision making, workload, leadership)
Case study analysis linking to Human error & TEM
Any pilot, instructor or otherwise, who thinks SA is not part of CRM should not be anywhere near an aircraft.
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It's a shame this thread has degenerated the way it has especially given the topic!
Anyway, out of curiousity I'd be interested in a brief guide as to how one teaches CRM/SA to ab initio. When I do teach I use the five point brief and I guess it would come under "airmanship"?
BBK
ps that's
Aim, Airmanship, Ex brief, Sortie brief and Check of understanding.
Anyway, out of curiousity I'd be interested in a brief guide as to how one teaches CRM/SA to ab initio. When I do teach I use the five point brief and I guess it would come under "airmanship"?
BBK
ps that's
Aim, Airmanship, Ex brief, Sortie brief and Check of understanding.
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And some EASA inspectors seem to try and spread to put it blunty "French" style of CRM. One of them want us to replace all references to Captain to CM1 and FO to CM2 and line training Captain was to be changed to line operations facilitator or some such pish. When asked why all he could bleat about was that it was industry standard. Maybe for ATR and Airbus operators it is, but there is no need to inflict that pish on the rest of us.
Last edited by Pull what; 16th Jul 2013 at 17:45.
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But taking first the FI course, there is ground school which again the term Situation awareness is used frequently. But how to teach it nope not there. Basic flying skills are meant to develop it but not out right teach it. Over a period of time it develops as experience is gained by the PPL and capacity is released from handling the aircraft. A big part of it is knowing what is coming next
there is ground school which again the term situation awareness is used frequently. But how to teach it nope not there.
That's strange because you said on the earlier post that situation awareness wasn't covered in the flight instructors course now you are saying the term SA is used frequently on the course. Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why the term is being used frequently. Here is a clue, its a course to teach you to be an instructor and after the instructor says hello that's what he is trying to do by using certain terms frequently
There are 5 hours allocated for the teaching of Judgment & Decision Making which includes SA on the AOPA FI Syllabus and you say-
But how to teach it nope not there
Simple fact is that to anyone with any experience its blatantly obvious that his skills with google far exceed the skills which he is discussing.
Last edited by Pull what; 16th Jul 2013 at 22:59.
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So there you have it
This is how the flying instructor Genghis, who lives and breathes SA with his mate Juvenile Jock, recommends that you teach it
Afterwards colour in all those nice big pictures of aeroplanes in your painting book
After being involved in a serious road accident in your pedal car explain to PC Plod that you were busy monitoring trees, clouds, smoke, crops and trying to maintain a continuous knowledge of wind direction
Afterwards play hide and seek around the control tower
You haven't tried it, now there is a surprise! Perhaps you should, then you might realise why you have a great future in children's literature
This is how the flying instructor Genghis, who lives and breathes SA with his mate Juvenile Jock, recommends that you teach it
Sit at an airfield with a scanner and photocopied local chart, sketching paths of aircraft based upon their radio calls.
Whilst flying or driving monitor trees / clouds / smoke / crops... to try and maintain a continuous knowledge of wind direction.
After being involved in a serious road accident in your pedal car explain to PC Plod that you were busy monitoring trees, clouds, smoke, crops and trying to maintain a continuous knowledge of wind direction
Watching other airceaft, keep trying to guess what they'll do next, and why?
I've not tried this, but it seems to be an emulation of how I learned SA.
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Wow, this is fun. Can I try?
Student has PPL? Every once in a while he should take a nice girl flying who he intends to make love to afterwards.
Now he needs to think really hard to do everything right and impress, because he cannot screw up otherwise no love.
Start letting him think for himself. Yes, he will make mistakes, which is the best experience and way to learn.
Best Regards,
PD
Student has PPL? Every once in a while he should take a nice girl flying who he intends to make love to afterwards.
Now he needs to think really hard to do everything right and impress, because he cannot screw up otherwise no love.
Start letting him think for himself. Yes, he will make mistakes, which is the best experience and way to learn.
Best Regards,
PD
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Start letting him think for himself. Yes, he will make mistakes, which is the best experience and way to learn.
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SA
If I may be permitted to add to the debate. Firstly - I am not a pilot but worked in an allied profession for over 30 years - one in which SA was the key factor for success. Before England went to the RWC in 2003 Clive Woodward visited the establishment I worked in - in an attempt to understand how we taught our students SA. The idea was that if there were transferrable skills then perhaps they could be brought to bear on the rugby field. The preparation for the visit was interesting because it meant that we had to ask ourselves the question "how do we teach SA?" From my perspective, and with about 10 years as an instructor in the bank, I am convinced that you cannot teach SA. It's essentially an aptitude based skill; what you can teach people is a routine, or a set of actions, that will help them to "get ahead" of the situation by clearing routine niff naff in a timely manner (as has been mentioned by many here already), thus giving them more time to ask themselves questions such as "what if". This seemed to work but only if the basic aptitude for the task was there. If it wasn't, then the stude was working at 100% simply to accomplish the routine task at hand. Just a few thoughts..........CB
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PS... Have you noticed that most of the worlds most serious air disasters have been caused by very experienced professional pilots.