Student cant pass his exams
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Student cant pass his exams
I have a student who is probably is the best handling pilot I have seen, he could quite easily fly himself around now, as he has the skill.
His problem is the exams, Ive managed to get him through 4 so far, but Nav is proving difficult. I have been to his house for ground school on several occasions. But he never puts in the pre work. He may have I feel dyslexia , I have the same issues so have had to work very hard all the way to get to the ATPL exams standards.
Without significant help he will never pass this exam. He has been flying within a group who are not very organised, and he has picked up a bad attitude to learning I think. IE expecting to do little work and get through the rating.
I feel it a shame, because he can fly.
He needs to put considerable time into this, and is not doing so, the other exams start expiring in April.
I offered to spent time with him over Xmas, he never called, he now wants to start again.
How would you handle this situation ? I know patience and perseverance are a key skill for instructors, but I have expressed so many times to him how important it is to put the work in to complete the license. Some people have to work very hard at it.
Is it now time to say 'if you dont put considerable time in to study no license', and all money spent to date will be wasted, or maybe another approach ?
His problem is the exams, Ive managed to get him through 4 so far, but Nav is proving difficult. I have been to his house for ground school on several occasions. But he never puts in the pre work. He may have I feel dyslexia , I have the same issues so have had to work very hard all the way to get to the ATPL exams standards.
Without significant help he will never pass this exam. He has been flying within a group who are not very organised, and he has picked up a bad attitude to learning I think. IE expecting to do little work and get through the rating.
I feel it a shame, because he can fly.
He needs to put considerable time into this, and is not doing so, the other exams start expiring in April.
I offered to spent time with him over Xmas, he never called, he now wants to start again.
How would you handle this situation ? I know patience and perseverance are a key skill for instructors, but I have expressed so many times to him how important it is to put the work in to complete the license. Some people have to work very hard at it.
Is it now time to say 'if you dont put considerable time in to study no license', and all money spent to date will be wasted, or maybe another approach ?
Last edited by Aware; 15th Jan 2012 at 17:06.
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Foxmoth - it doesn't sound like they have an issue with not 'clicking', just with the student not putting the work in to pass the ground exams.
It sounds like the OP has put a lot of effort into this student, which should be applauded, sadly the student needs a certain amount of self-motivation and discipline/will-power/determination, call it what you will.
Perhaps he just doesn't want it enough?
You can drag a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
It sounds like the OP has put a lot of effort into this student, which should be applauded, sadly the student needs a certain amount of self-motivation and discipline/will-power/determination, call it what you will.
Perhaps he just doesn't want it enough?
You can drag a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
Foxmoth - it doesn't sound like they have an issue with not 'clicking', just with the student not putting the work in to pass the ground exams.
It sounds like the OP has put a lot of effort into this student, which should be applauded, sadly the student needs a certain amount of self-motivation and discipline/will-power/determination, call it what you will.
Perhaps he just doesn't want it enough?
You can drag a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
It sounds like the OP has put a lot of effort into this student, which should be applauded, sadly the student needs a certain amount of self-motivation and discipline/will-power/determination, call it what you will.
Perhaps he just doesn't want it enough?
You can drag a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
but ultimately irelevant. I finally cut him off and so no flying until he passes the exam. That provided the necessary motivation....
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Hi
This problem is EASILY resolved:
NO flying until application of motivation. He shows no passion for flying, else he would exhaust every possible and conseivable method of not only passing, but passing well.
I'd also congratulate the efforts you have gone to for this particular student - but like a previosu comment mentioned, you cant drage a river to the horse !
This problem is EASILY resolved:
NO flying until application of motivation. He shows no passion for flying, else he would exhaust every possible and conseivable method of not only passing, but passing well.
I'd also congratulate the efforts you have gone to for this particular student - but like a previosu comment mentioned, you cant drage a river to the horse !
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Could I offer some perspective from outside the box? I have been teaching piano and entering pupils for exams for over 25 years and there have been plenty of times when a pupil hasn't done the work, and I have been genuinely fearful that any work they can do now will be too little, too late, and that they will fail. After some initial reserve, I am now very happy to impart these fears to the pupil/parent. This usually results in a shedload of work being done in the last week, and a scraped pass secured.
Of course, there are differences: there is not quite so much money at stake, for one. But the main difference is that you take a PPL exam when you're ready. With music exams you are entered about 2-3 months in advance, then once you get the appointment you're commited to that date. Despite this, I would still say that the direct, no-compromise approach is the most effective (and the most honest).
Of course, there are differences: there is not quite so much money at stake, for one. But the main difference is that you take a PPL exam when you're ready. With music exams you are entered about 2-3 months in advance, then once you get the appointment you're commited to that date. Despite this, I would still say that the direct, no-compromise approach is the most effective (and the most honest).
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I agree with what has been said - be firm and frank - if the student cant or wont apply his/her mind to the exams then they will never qualify, so make that clear.
But that raises two questions in my mind:
first, what is the students motivation for learning to fly? Do you know what this is? It will help a lot if you understand it because you will know which emotional levers to pull to get the motivation to pass the exams established. And it has to be to do with motivation - or if its to do with basic ability then they really never can qualify and should be told as much.
secondly, is it just the Nav exam that is the problem? Or all of them? Your post isn't clear on this point. Some students are really quite nervous about the nav exam because of its practical nature.
Overall this sounds like a typical "fear of failure response". You need to understand that many learners (in all fields) that are frightened of failure would rather not try, because then they can say to themselves "well I didn't really try, cos exams are rubbish and irrelevant, so no wonder I failed". That is much less difficult to face than the possibility of having to say "well I failed, even though I really tried". This is why understanding their motivation is so important: it gives you the ammunition to counter this.
Are there any other students you have who have struggled with the exams, maybe failed first time but eventually passed - they could help your student to realise that its not the end of the world if they fail.
A further possibility is the the student has discovered that they don't really want to fly - but can't admit that. So failing the exams is a way out.
Good luck!
H
But that raises two questions in my mind:
first, what is the students motivation for learning to fly? Do you know what this is? It will help a lot if you understand it because you will know which emotional levers to pull to get the motivation to pass the exams established. And it has to be to do with motivation - or if its to do with basic ability then they really never can qualify and should be told as much.
secondly, is it just the Nav exam that is the problem? Or all of them? Your post isn't clear on this point. Some students are really quite nervous about the nav exam because of its practical nature.
Overall this sounds like a typical "fear of failure response". You need to understand that many learners (in all fields) that are frightened of failure would rather not try, because then they can say to themselves "well I didn't really try, cos exams are rubbish and irrelevant, so no wonder I failed". That is much less difficult to face than the possibility of having to say "well I failed, even though I really tried". This is why understanding their motivation is so important: it gives you the ammunition to counter this.
Are there any other students you have who have struggled with the exams, maybe failed first time but eventually passed - they could help your student to realise that its not the end of the world if they fail.
A further possibility is the the student has discovered that they don't really want to fly - but can't admit that. So failing the exams is a way out.
Good luck!
H
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I have this a lot. I try my best to organise structured groundschool, give extensive breifings on naviagation, and yet students often do not put in the work at home.
What is the background of this student? I find the worst for putting in the work at home are the young 16-20 year olds who have a lot of other studies going on in their lives and are being funded by mum and dad. Since they are not paying for it they have no real incentive to put the work in at home.
The best for putting the work in seem to be the 30-40 year olds who have saved for ages and are finally in a position to pay for their own licence. They don't take anything for granted, and get the work done when you ask it be done.
The other one to watch out for are the 40-50 year olds who have been very successful in business and think that money will solve any problem. They tend to turn up very unprepared and never put the ground studies in.
With this student, you could say no flying until x number of exams are done, but then he may well take his business elsewhere. Perhaps if you just set a firm deadline he will cram at home and get the pass. Half the problem is that there is no fixed exam date, the student can take the paper when they feel ready, and often they never feel all that ready.
What is the background of this student? I find the worst for putting in the work at home are the young 16-20 year olds who have a lot of other studies going on in their lives and are being funded by mum and dad. Since they are not paying for it they have no real incentive to put the work in at home.
The best for putting the work in seem to be the 30-40 year olds who have saved for ages and are finally in a position to pay for their own licence. They don't take anything for granted, and get the work done when you ask it be done.
The other one to watch out for are the 40-50 year olds who have been very successful in business and think that money will solve any problem. They tend to turn up very unprepared and never put the ground studies in.
With this student, you could say no flying until x number of exams are done, but then he may well take his business elsewhere. Perhaps if you just set a firm deadline he will cram at home and get the pass. Half the problem is that there is no fixed exam date, the student can take the paper when they feel ready, and often they never feel all that ready.
I'm going to offer an alternative possibility (not to discount what other people have been suggested, but because I see another possible answer).
I have come across a lot of people in my life, including the chunk of my life that I spent teaching in universities, and the larger chunk I've spent teaching in dojos, who just don't know how to study. If they reach adulthood with that lack of knowledge still there, it becomes something of a phobia - they firmly believe that they cannot study, cannot learn, cannot pass exams. So they deal with it by not trying.
So, I'm going to suggest that perhaps it's not threats of a stop in flying, or a good kick up the backside that are needed. Maybe what they need is help with *how* to learn groundschool material.
There are various strategies of-course, but all of those strategies require structured working, active (writing / practicing) learning. Left to their own devices many students (particularly anybody under 30 these days, or at the other end those just a long way from any formal education) will default to simply trying to read the material, which seldom works for anybody. Possibly if you can show the student that this learning process is not too unpleasant an occupation, and importantly that it works and he'll pass and then get on with the fun stuff, you'll sort things out.
And if that doesn't do it, also just ask him the straight question as to whether he's planning to get the licence, or is just happy to fly dual or supervised solo, and paying for your time, indefinitely. If the second, enjoy the flying and the money - and stop worrying about him (whilst obviously keeping the door open when he realises that flying for yourself is a lot more fun.)
G
I have come across a lot of people in my life, including the chunk of my life that I spent teaching in universities, and the larger chunk I've spent teaching in dojos, who just don't know how to study. If they reach adulthood with that lack of knowledge still there, it becomes something of a phobia - they firmly believe that they cannot study, cannot learn, cannot pass exams. So they deal with it by not trying.
So, I'm going to suggest that perhaps it's not threats of a stop in flying, or a good kick up the backside that are needed. Maybe what they need is help with *how* to learn groundschool material.
There are various strategies of-course, but all of those strategies require structured working, active (writing / practicing) learning. Left to their own devices many students (particularly anybody under 30 these days, or at the other end those just a long way from any formal education) will default to simply trying to read the material, which seldom works for anybody. Possibly if you can show the student that this learning process is not too unpleasant an occupation, and importantly that it works and he'll pass and then get on with the fun stuff, you'll sort things out.
And if that doesn't do it, also just ask him the straight question as to whether he's planning to get the licence, or is just happy to fly dual or supervised solo, and paying for your time, indefinitely. If the second, enjoy the flying and the money - and stop worrying about him (whilst obviously keeping the door open when he realises that flying for yourself is a lot more fun.)
G
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Good point Genghis. Study skills are important. If that's the problem then student can be helped with how to study - there is loads of help available on line for example.
And I certainly know students who may never qualify, but are happy to fly for fun with an instructor (need still to be lessons of course)
H
And I certainly know students who may never qualify, but are happy to fly for fun with an instructor (need still to be lessons of course)
H
The Club where I used to be CFI had a very straightforward solution:
1. You can sit any exams at any time. Just book a time. And they're free for a first attempt, but will attract a fee for the second attempt. Fail twice and we won't let you try again until you've been to a specialist ground instructor.
2. No solo circuit consolidation nor any further dual flights until you've passed Air Law, HP&L and Communications(PPL).
3. No solo navigation nor any further dual flights until you've passed Navigation, FP&P and Meteorology.
4. No Q X-C until you've passed RTF practical.
5. BAD WEATHER FOR FLYING = GOOD WEATHER FOR EXAMS!
1. You can sit any exams at any time. Just book a time. And they're free for a first attempt, but will attract a fee for the second attempt. Fail twice and we won't let you try again until you've been to a specialist ground instructor.
2. No solo circuit consolidation nor any further dual flights until you've passed Air Law, HP&L and Communications(PPL).
3. No solo navigation nor any further dual flights until you've passed Navigation, FP&P and Meteorology.
4. No Q X-C until you've passed RTF practical.
5. BAD WEATHER FOR FLYING = GOOD WEATHER FOR EXAMS!
The above comment is correct, but remember, you must pass ALL 7 PPL exams within 18 months from your first exam pass...so you are in fact on a timer.
Perhaps you should be getting down to nav gen yourself rather than passing so much time on Pprune? May I gently remind you where you are?
A place for instructors to communicate with one another
Yes, I think most instructors (read, all of us) are aware of this.
Perhaps you should be getting down to nav gen yourself rather than passing so much time on Pprune? May I gently remind you where you are?
As in: one another. Feel free to return to this forum when you have some sort of instructor rating, do.
Perhaps you should be getting down to nav gen yourself rather than passing so much time on Pprune? May I gently remind you where you are?
As in: one another. Feel free to return to this forum when you have some sort of instructor rating, do.
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You say he's a good handling pilot... May I ask what his flight planning is like for an actual navigation trip? Does he, can he? Whats his airmanship and technical understanding like of Nav (and the other subjects)? What was he like for the exams he's already passed?
As Genghis has intimated...it may be just his learning style that is the problem...
If he can do the stuff in 'real life' in real time it may be just exam nerves.
External stressors?
As Genghis has intimated...it may be just his learning style that is the problem...
If he can do the stuff in 'real life' in real time it may be just exam nerves.
External stressors?
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Dutchess_Driver:
Yes i feel you could have a valid point here - i too agree with the response Genghis made with regards to learning style - maybe a consideration should be made to this. Does he better respond to personal 1 on 1 learning ?....is he more a visual learner ? as suupose to a more auditory style (does he respond well to text books....listening ? ) perhaps different learning styles should be applied.
Piper.Classique - ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz !
Yes i feel you could have a valid point here - i too agree with the response Genghis made with regards to learning style - maybe a consideration should be made to this. Does he better respond to personal 1 on 1 learning ?....is he more a visual learner ? as suupose to a more auditory style (does he respond well to text books....listening ? ) perhaps different learning styles should be applied.
Piper.Classique - ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz !
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An update on this situation. I sent an email to group members asking for help. One of them replied to me, I got 100% in all my PPL exams, Im a maths graduate and I love Nav, also considering becoming an instructor, so would be happy to help this student. So from next week he is having 1 to 1 with the group member. With a view to sitting exam in early Feb.