How Should I Know That my Student is Ready for His First Solo???
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok you two-you have posed quite a lot of questions there, do you really want me to hijack the thread by going so far off topic?
I am quite happy to accept you have your way and I have mine. Why not stay on topic and answer the questions that Zyg asked for, perhaps then others will join in too!
I am quite happy to accept you have your way and I have mine. Why not stay on topic and answer the questions that Zyg asked for, perhaps then others will join in too!
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes please.
There is a hellva lot of very inexperenced FI's out there these days with very little mentoring. I am sure your reply's to the questions when related back to the theory section of there FIC will allow them to form an opinion to how much weight they should give your posts.
Its quite common for "sciolists" posts on the forum and I am sure you would agree that for flight safety reasons "sciolists" posters should be outed.
There is a hellva lot of very inexperenced FI's out there these days with very little mentoring. I am sure your reply's to the questions when related back to the theory section of there FIC will allow them to form an opinion to how much weight they should give your posts.
Its quite common for "sciolists" posts on the forum and I am sure you would agree that for flight safety reasons "sciolists" posters should be outed.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please do answer the questions MJ and I have asked. I'm happy to have a friendly debate. It's not just the three of us who post or read these forums, so if you want to make a statement, you need to be prepared to be able to back up any comments you make.
That's what made Pprune good in the first place, the fact that someone would post something and there were plenty of people who knew enough to make sure that it was accurate.
I'm not the greatest FI who ever lived, but I'm no idiot and I'm very aware of when I read good stuff or nonsense and being a belligerent sod, I'm happy to say when I think someone is typing guff.
So please feel free to have a go back at me if you want. I'm a big boy and happy to defend my own position if challenged.
That's what made Pprune good in the first place, the fact that someone would post something and there were plenty of people who knew enough to make sure that it was accurate.
I'm not the greatest FI who ever lived, but I'm no idiot and I'm very aware of when I read good stuff or nonsense and being a belligerent sod, I'm happy to say when I think someone is typing guff.
So please feel free to have a go back at me if you want. I'm a big boy and happy to defend my own position if challenged.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK well lets keep it friendly-remember if you were on the side of the road and needed help I would be the first to stop!
Just need to do a few things this morning so as as soon as I have time will try an answer some of your questions.
Just need to do a few things this morning so as as soon as I have time will try an answer some of your questions.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To answer the thread question
HOW DO I KNOW WHEN MY STUDENT IS READY FOR FIRST SOLO?
When I am satisfied that I could stand up at a coroners inquest and not be accused of negligence as a result of any incident or accident that may have occured as a result of me authorising that solo.
HOW DO I KNOW WHEN MY STUDENT IS READY FOR FIRST SOLO?
When I am satisfied that I could stand up at a coroners inquest and not be accused of negligence as a result of any incident or accident that may have occured as a result of me authorising that solo.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, that's trite and completely missing the point. What does that actually mean. Do you go throught the entire syllabus before sending them off on the first solo?
Now, how about answering some of the questions that MJ and I have asked you? Are you unwilling or unable to answer them?
Now, how about answering some of the questions that MJ and I have asked you? Are you unwilling or unable to answer them?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Derby
Age: 45
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A first solo debriefing.
"allright Blogs, congratulations, how was it?"
"Oh twas fantastic, I was a bit nervous blah blah"
Any problems at all?
"well I had one radio call I didn't quite understand so I said "say again".
Brilliant.
-Student receives certificate and goes to the pub.
Unless the student really has a nightmare in the CCT it would seem pointless to drag on and on about every tiny bit of the circuit.
Also as pointed out, not many students are going to be receptive after such an accomplishment.
"Oh twas fantastic, I was a bit nervous blah blah"
Any problems at all?
"well I had one radio call I didn't quite understand so I said "say again".
Brilliant.
-Student receives certificate and goes to the pub.
Unless the student really has a nightmare in the CCT it would seem pointless to drag on and on about every tiny bit of the circuit.
Also as pointed out, not many students are going to be receptive after such an accomplishment.
My 02 cents
There is no magic forumula which says if Blogs does the following 37 things then he/she is fit to solo. Central to being a flight instructor is be able to use your professional judgement to assess the competance of your student. However one fairly common guideline, which I also use, is the "3 in a row test". That is the student does three acceptable circuits without my having to say/do anything. That combined with my general favorable impression of the student and away he/she goes.
For PPL, especially Presolo ones, I value consitancy over flashes of brilliance. I would far rather see landings which are maybe a bit ugly but safe, over 2 greasers followed by a total smash job followed by another greaser, or good landings salvaged from poor approaches. In my experience the best indication of PPL competance in general, and suitability for solo in particular, is the final approach from 500 ft AGL to the flare. Seeing the nose continually wondering up or down, sawing the power on and off, and having the aircraft swaying from side to side are indicators of a lack of foundation skills no matter how nice the actual touchdown.
In addition IMO, the most dangerous flight is not the first solo it is solo number 3 or 4. Nobody crashes on their first solo but there is plenty of bent metal from pilots with small amounts of solo time. I think this is because instructors can slip into a bit of complency and not provide quite the same level of oversight on a student that has allready gone solo, but the reality is all the factors that you sweat about on the first solo probably still exists on say solo number 3. Because of this I am very carefull about authorizing another instructors student for a solo flight particularly low solo time ones.
As for debriefing after the first solo. Mine is simple and always the same. I tell them to give me their cell phone and wallet......so they do not get wet when we pour a bucket of water over them
I am again dismayed that this is yet another thread that is full of posts that provide little or no actual value to new instructors looking for practical sensible advice. Unfortunately this forum has been hijacked by a handfull of poster that specialize in pedantic and arrogant dissertations which immediately descend into rants and counter rants on points of the most amazing trivia.
For all you new instructors out there, I highly recommend you check out the training forum on avcanada.ca. It is not perfect but IMO has a lot of really good practical usefull posts.
There is no magic forumula which says if Blogs does the following 37 things then he/she is fit to solo. Central to being a flight instructor is be able to use your professional judgement to assess the competance of your student. However one fairly common guideline, which I also use, is the "3 in a row test". That is the student does three acceptable circuits without my having to say/do anything. That combined with my general favorable impression of the student and away he/she goes.
For PPL, especially Presolo ones, I value consitancy over flashes of brilliance. I would far rather see landings which are maybe a bit ugly but safe, over 2 greasers followed by a total smash job followed by another greaser, or good landings salvaged from poor approaches. In my experience the best indication of PPL competance in general, and suitability for solo in particular, is the final approach from 500 ft AGL to the flare. Seeing the nose continually wondering up or down, sawing the power on and off, and having the aircraft swaying from side to side are indicators of a lack of foundation skills no matter how nice the actual touchdown.
In addition IMO, the most dangerous flight is not the first solo it is solo number 3 or 4. Nobody crashes on their first solo but there is plenty of bent metal from pilots with small amounts of solo time. I think this is because instructors can slip into a bit of complency and not provide quite the same level of oversight on a student that has allready gone solo, but the reality is all the factors that you sweat about on the first solo probably still exists on say solo number 3. Because of this I am very carefull about authorizing another instructors student for a solo flight particularly low solo time ones.
As for debriefing after the first solo. Mine is simple and always the same. I tell them to give me their cell phone and wallet......so they do not get wet when we pour a bucket of water over them
I am again dismayed that this is yet another thread that is full of posts that provide little or no actual value to new instructors looking for practical sensible advice. Unfortunately this forum has been hijacked by a handfull of poster that specialize in pedantic and arrogant dissertations which immediately descend into rants and counter rants on points of the most amazing trivia.
For all you new instructors out there, I highly recommend you check out the training forum on avcanada.ca. It is not perfect but IMO has a lot of really good practical usefull posts.
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 15th Jun 2010 at 04:44.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am again dismayed that this is yet another thread that is full of posts that provide little or no actual value to new instructors looking for practical sensible advice.
When I am satisfied that I could stand up at a coroners inquest and not be accused of negligence as a result of any incident or accident that may have occured as a result of me authorising that solo.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unless the student really has a nightmare in the CCT it would seem pointless to drag on and on about every tiny bit of the circuit.
If one does not watch what happens it is a bit hard to help the student rebuild their confidence if they are unfortunate enough to have a nightmare.
The issue was never about making a formal debrief it was about the instructor remaining professional and not getting caught up in the emotions surrounding the first solo to the possible detriment of their student's progress.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mad Jock said that he does not bother to watch the student on their first solo. That is what started this argument.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To be fair SAS I did
And I never did. Some of that was to do with walking back to the apron along the taxi way/short runway with my back to the main runway. And the fact you couldn't see the theshold when you were walking along the side of the water runoff channel.
All the other instructors didn't either.
And I didn't have a single student I had any doudt that they wouldn't complete the circuit safely.
Had I been at cum with an easy drop off point and that nice FISO station just up the strairs I proberly would have watched and even listened to the radio.
Anyway just stick them on ignore and be done with it
And I never watch them doing the circuit because I know they will be fine.
All the other instructors didn't either.
And I didn't have a single student I had any doudt that they wouldn't complete the circuit safely.
Had I been at cum with an easy drop off point and that nice FISO station just up the strairs I proberly would have watched and even listened to the radio.
Anyway just stick them on ignore and be done with it
Well, going back to the original query...
I used the rule of thumb that 3 consecutive circuits and landings without any need for me to say or do anything was the decider.
After the last landing, I would take control and taxy clear at the mid-point. Then tell the student that I wanted him/her to do the power check, pre-take-off checks and go off when cleared for one circuit, then come back to the same spot to pick me up.
I'd watch him/her getting on with this on my way to the ATC tower. The reason I went to the tower was more to stop any Air Trafficker BS interfering with the trip than to watch the student!
When he/she came back to pick me up, they'd be all smiles, of course. A quick handshake and then I'd taxy it back. The debrief would be conducted during taxying - "Go OK, did it?" "Yes" "Well done, Captain!"
I only recall one student saying that he didn't think he was ready. I told him that although I thought he was, if he wasn't happy, then OK. I suggested that I'd ask another FI to fly with him the next time, so that he could have the benefit of a second opinion.
m_j - did you send A Certain Lady off on her first solo? That must have been fun.....
I used the rule of thumb that 3 consecutive circuits and landings without any need for me to say or do anything was the decider.
After the last landing, I would take control and taxy clear at the mid-point. Then tell the student that I wanted him/her to do the power check, pre-take-off checks and go off when cleared for one circuit, then come back to the same spot to pick me up.
I'd watch him/her getting on with this on my way to the ATC tower. The reason I went to the tower was more to stop any Air Trafficker BS interfering with the trip than to watch the student!
When he/she came back to pick me up, they'd be all smiles, of course. A quick handshake and then I'd taxy it back. The debrief would be conducted during taxying - "Go OK, did it?" "Yes" "Well done, Captain!"
I only recall one student saying that he didn't think he was ready. I told him that although I thought he was, if he wasn't happy, then OK. I suggested that I'd ask another FI to fly with him the next time, so that he could have the benefit of a second opinion.
m_j - did you send A Certain Lady off on her first solo? That must have been fun.....
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can't remember to be honest. I don't have that log book with me. I proberly did. Either that or it was the CFI.
I can remember her getting flustered at one point on her solo consolidation circuits when the wind shifted and she did a GA. ATC came on the phone that she was asking for me. They asked me to go to tower which is miles away across the other side of the airport which you can't get into unless you either drive for 5 miles or get an ops car. I instructed the ATCO to pass the message "get a grip woman"
All ended up with ops car belting around the place and pinky coming in for a utterly gorgeous one wheel down then the next then the front cross wind landing bang on the center line with no input from anyone.. And an ATCO nearly having a heart attack because it was the fastest he has ever legged it up the stairs to the visual room.
All part of the drama of pinky learning to fly.
Hows she doing BTW?
I can remember her getting flustered at one point on her solo consolidation circuits when the wind shifted and she did a GA. ATC came on the phone that she was asking for me. They asked me to go to tower which is miles away across the other side of the airport which you can't get into unless you either drive for 5 miles or get an ops car. I instructed the ATCO to pass the message "get a grip woman"
All ended up with ops car belting around the place and pinky coming in for a utterly gorgeous one wheel down then the next then the front cross wind landing bang on the center line with no input from anyone.. And an ATCO nearly having a heart attack because it was the fastest he has ever legged it up the stairs to the visual room.
All part of the drama of pinky learning to fly.
Hows she doing BTW?
Not flying these days - but you can hear her on Two Lochs Radio at 1700 tonight!
Two Lochs Radio, Wester Ross, 106 & 106.6 FM (and it has an Internet audiostream....)
Two Lochs Radio, Wester Ross, 106 & 106.6 FM (and it has an Internet audiostream....)
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thats a shame.
I think I will listen to that for want of something better to do.
Might give her a visit next time I am back. From what I remember she is a cracking cook on that argar of hers. The cakes and biscuits she used to bring were to die for.
I think I will listen to that for want of something better to do.
Might give her a visit next time I am back. From what I remember she is a cracking cook on that argar of hers. The cakes and biscuits she used to bring were to die for.
