Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Flying Instructors & Examiners
Reload this Page >

Angle of climb/rate of climb

Wikiposts
Search
Flying Instructors & Examiners A place for instructors to communicate with one another because some of them get a bit tired of the attitude that instructing is the lowest form of aviation, as seems to prevail on some of the other forums!

Angle of climb/rate of climb

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 30th Sep 2011, 01:19
  #21 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 63
Posts: 5,614
Received 60 Likes on 43 Posts
To further clarify this, an excellent depiction of these relationships is presented on pages 131 & 132 of this book. Note the Vx and Vy lines on the graph.

Flight testing of fixed-wing aircraft - Ralph D. Kimberlin - Google Books
Pilot DAR is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2011, 02:01
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Kerikeri New Zealand
Age: 89
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
BEST ANGLE VS BEST RATE OF CLIMB.

BEST ANGLE OF CLIMB ALSO KNOWN BY THE HEAVY METAL AS BEST GRADIENT
SPEED THAT;
GIVE THE AIRFRAME MOST POWER AVAILABLE OVER POWER REQUIRED.
SAY THE SPEED IS 150 KTS FOR BEST GRADIENT.
THIS EQUATES TO A SPEED WHERE THE LEAST AMOUNT OF POWER IS REQUIRED TO FLY AT 150 KTS, AND ANY POWER AVAILABLE OVER THIS MIN POWER REQUIRED CAN BE USED TO GAIN HEIGHT.(increase ange of climb)
SAY 150 KTS NEED 40% OF THE POWER AVAILABLE, THE OTHER 60% IS WHAT IS AVAILABLE TO CLIMB.
THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT SAY 180 KTS GIVES THE BEST RATE OF CLIMB IN UNITS PER MINUTE BUT IT WILL NEED MORE POWER TO MAINTAIN 180 KTS BUT THE LD RATIO IS BETTER SO THE AIIRCRAFT WILL CLIMB AT A GREATER NUMBER OF UNITS PER MINUTE SO BE HIGHER THAN CASE A AFTER A FIXED TIME; BUT FURTHER DOWN TRACK., WHICH WOULD NOT AVOID A NASTY NOISE IF THERE WAS A NEAR OBSTACLE.
gulfairs is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2011, 07:38
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland
Age: 84
Posts: 1,434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The best angle plane will be moving more slowly across the ground, so combined with the steeper angle, will clear an obstacle that the best rate plane might not.
Pilot Dar thank you.
I seem to have got them back to front. Best rate is shallower/flatter, best angle is steeper.
Crash one is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2011, 11:21
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Mare Imbrium
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Its probably worth remebering to emphasise to students (at PPL stage anyway) that if they are in a situation where the difference between best gradient climb and best rate of climb matters for terrain clearance... ...well they really shouldn't be there

H
Heston is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2011, 15:17
  #25 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 63
Posts: 5,614
Received 60 Likes on 43 Posts
...well they really shouldn't be there
True indeed. Though if a pilot is realizing that they should not "be there", they are probably very much in need of the best information as to how to get out without delay.

If that pilot has recognized a need to outclimb rising terrain, best angle is likely most appropriate. If outclimbing changing weather, or traffic is necessary, and terrain is not a factor, best rate is probably more appropriate.

If you expect to climb for a long period, best rate will be much better for cooling.
Pilot DAR is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2011, 16:25
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I seem to have got them back to front. Best rate is shallower/flatter, best angle is steeper.
Except when they both become the same!

If that pilot has recognized a need to outclimb rising terrain, best angle is likely most appropriate.
Not likely, ALWAYS, thats what it is there for and when you really need it you will appreciate that a foot the wrong way is the difference between flying over the mountain or being carried down it.
Pull what is offline  
Old 10th Oct 2011, 07:21
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If you're looking for an explanation as to why max excess thrust will give max angle of climb and max excess power will give max rate of climb, you need to go over a TON of basics. Thrust and power are connected somewhat like torque and power. I wrote an article on torque and power that you can check out here: http://www.box.net/shared/tpby1m893e6mipiv6sjp

When you talk about climbs you have to discuss power required and power available and thrust required and thrust available. I find it's best to start with power when discussing reciprocating engines and start with thrust when talking about jet engines. It can get incredibly confusing so take it one step at a time. The Advanced Pilot's Flight Manual has some good stuff on climbs that I suggest you read. You've asked such a broad question it's impossible to answer on here. I could write a book on it. Once you've read that and understand it a bit, I can help you with specific questions.
italia458 is offline  
Old 10th Oct 2011, 14:27
  #28 (permalink)  
KAG
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: France
Posts: 749
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Dboy: just to confuse you a bit more:
sometimes when flying at max rate speed we choose best angle speed to increase our actual rate of climb over a period of time

Explanation/practical example: You are climbing at mach 0.76 and the atc ask you to expedite. You select max rate which is 266 KTS indicated speed today.
You are asked again to reach your level as soon as possible, you then select max angle (255 today?) which increases your actual angle AND your actual rate at the same time during the speed loss!

Let's go even further: you've just reached you best angle speed at 1200 feet below your level and the ATC is wishing you make it even faster, due to converging traffic (bad example).
You select then minimum speed for one engine out, maybe 242 today, (not a good procedure, but the result remains true for the subject of this thread): you find yourself increasing your actual angle AND your actual rate while the speed is decreasing.
Now you are reaching your level meanwhile you've just reached your minimum one engine speed, which is below both your max rate speed and best angle speed but have increased your actual max rate and actual best climb by doing so...

Hope I have confused you enough
KAG is offline  
Old 10th Oct 2011, 16:56
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
KAG, what you're describing is called a zoom climb. It shouldn't be related to holding a Vx speed for a limited time. A zoom climb is not sustained like Vx and Vy are. During sustained climbs, mechanical work is being transferred into potential energy (altitude). In a zoom climb, it's typically done at full thrust/power and a majority of the aircraft's climb performance is from it's kinetic energy being converted into potential energy (altitude).
italia458 is offline  
Old 10th Oct 2011, 18:52
  #30 (permalink)  
KAG
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: France
Posts: 749
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You got it right.



A zoom climb is not sustained like Vx and Vy are.
However if we want to be accurate, even if I agree with what you mean, NO climb speed, including best angle and max rate are sustainable on our aircrafts...


A "zoom climb" as you call it is sometimes the real answer to an emergency (wind shear at very low altitude, stall at very low altitude, imminent crash...) to avoid terrain, best angle speed won't be the one we will be looking for in those cases, the procedure will be to pull up to stick shaker (close to stall speed) to get the actual "best angle" and save your life, because the best angle speed remains in the real life a theorical speed that doesn't fit all real situations requesting the actual best angle performances from your airplane.
KAG is offline  
Old 10th Oct 2011, 18:56
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
However if we want to be accurate, even if I agree with what you mean, NO climb speed, including best angle and max rate are sustainable on our aircrafts...
Oh you cheeky bugger! Now you're using a different meaning of "sustainable".

I agree with your statement about zoom climbs but they shouldn't be referred to as "best angle" climbs. That's incredibly confusing especially when trying to teach a student what best angle (Vx) climbs are. Discussing the benefits of the zoom climb, like you did, is good but it shouldn't be called Vx (best angle) because that is something different.
italia458 is offline  
Old 10th Oct 2011, 20:35
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Why complicate everything?

Best angle is thurst minus drag over weight and best rate is proportional to the amount of excess HP available over that required to fly the aircraft straight and level.

Instructors should teach people to fly not bore them to death trying to be clever.
Pull what is offline  
Old 10th Oct 2011, 20:53
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Why complicate everything?
That's exactly the attitude that leads to crappy pilots. Rote learning doesn't "teach" you anything. Sure I can state exactly what you said but the problem with that is it doesn't explain anything. Although it might get you to pass the multiple choice questions on your exam.

Can you answer this question?... If a piston airplane's only way of moving is controlled by how much thrust is being created, then what does power have to do with it? Consider a fixed pitch, single engine airplane. Oh, and don't complicate it!

EDIT: Complicate is a very ambiguous word. To someone who just passed grade 5 math it would probably be considered complicated but to someone who has a PhD in aeronautical engineering it could be considered overly simple. What level of education should pilots be expected to have?
italia458 is offline  
Old 11th Oct 2011, 00:55
  #34 (permalink)  
KAG
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: France
Posts: 749
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I agree with your statement about zoom climbs but they shouldn't be referred to as "best angle" climbs. That's incredibly confusing especially when trying to teach a student what best angle (Vx) climbs are. Discussing the benefits of the zoom climb, like you did, is good but it shouldn't be called Vx (best angle) because that is something different.
Thing is that what will give you your actual best climb angle and avoid a crash is not maintaining best angle speed in the real life examples I gave you.

A bit less focus on the physics and more concern about the reality and actual use of best angle concerning the actual operation of an airplane might be necessary to avoid speaking about matter of very little use when facing an emergency or having to deal with acceleration/deceleration change of flight level in a busy airspace.
KAG is offline  
Old 11th Oct 2011, 01:57
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
KAG... This is really simple but obviously not obvious. If two words or sentences or phrases are spelt differently, they're NOT the same! A zoom climb is a zoom climb. Best angle of climb is best angle of climb. They should be discussed separately. Just like Vy and Vx both have a rate of climb and an angle of climb, so too does a zoom climb. And there are certain circumstances where one climb offers more performance than the others. That should be discussed, but it doesn't change the fact that they're different.

A bit less focus on the physics and more concern about the reality and actual use of best angle concerning the actual operation of an airplane might be necessary to avoid speaking about matter of very little use when facing an emergency or having to deal with acceleration/deceleration change of flight level in a busy airspace.
That statement is entirely irrelevant to what I've said. I never said that Vx should be used in all cases where you need to avoid an obstacle. I will say that if you're required to use a zoom climb to clear an obstacle without crashing then you're in a place you never should have been in. You should get a slap on the wrist for that.
italia458 is offline  
Old 11th Oct 2011, 02:27
  #36 (permalink)  
KAG
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: France
Posts: 749
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I will say that if you're required to use a zoom climb to clear an obstacle without crashing then you're in a place you never should have been in.
Welcome to the real world.
KAG is offline  
Old 11th Oct 2011, 02:39
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Welcome to the real world.
...Ok. Been here for many years actually
italia458 is offline  
Old 11th Oct 2011, 02:58
  #38 (permalink)  
KAG
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: France
Posts: 749
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I am sure about that, just a figure of speech.
KAG is offline  
Old 11th Oct 2011, 13:39
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
That's exactly the attitude that leads to crappy pilots.
I quite agree, over the last 28 years I have produced some crappy pilots but all excellent commanders.
Pull what is offline  
Old 18th Oct 2011, 17:18
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I quite agree, over the last 28 years I have produced some crappy pilots but all excellent commanders.
You first need to teach someone how to be a pilot before you teach them how to be an airplane "commander".
italia458 is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.