Spins and Engine Failures Solo Practice
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I did the CTC Wings course and as part of the NZ PPL we had, at a guess 15-20 hours of solo GH time, in the local area.
The vast majority of the solo GH time was spent practicing PFLs and the complete stalling package. Steep turns for 20 hours would get fairly tedious! Navigation (both dual and solo) came after, at about 40 hours into the PPL.
I have no problem in practicing solo all of the GH manoeuvres that you are supposed to demonstrate on your test. You don't (or rather, shouldn't) need an instructor to critique every aspect of every PFL if you have been taught how to do it properly to start with. Of course the solo time was built around some more dual instruction but this was where you could hopefully demonstrate how your technique is improving with continued practice. The instructor could then offer more advice and improvements for you to work on solo.
We did 3 hours of dual aerobatics / spinning / UA recoveries and practicing that as a solo student is potentially the most ludicrous idea I've ever heard!
The vast majority of the solo GH time was spent practicing PFLs and the complete stalling package. Steep turns for 20 hours would get fairly tedious! Navigation (both dual and solo) came after, at about 40 hours into the PPL.
I have no problem in practicing solo all of the GH manoeuvres that you are supposed to demonstrate on your test. You don't (or rather, shouldn't) need an instructor to critique every aspect of every PFL if you have been taught how to do it properly to start with. Of course the solo time was built around some more dual instruction but this was where you could hopefully demonstrate how your technique is improving with continued practice. The instructor could then offer more advice and improvements for you to work on solo.
We did 3 hours of dual aerobatics / spinning / UA recoveries and practicing that as a solo student is potentially the most ludicrous idea I've ever heard!
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I sent a student for his first unsupervised solo a couple of weeks ago. Due to nationality, this lad had certain language problems. I (tried) to make very clear to him that NO STALLS this flight... just make yourself comfortable flying around yourself and you can practice some slow flight (no less than 65 kts) and steep turns if you'd like.
Post flight I told him to write some comments in his training records about things he did good and what he could improve to next time. When I read his notes my heart stopped for a few seconds... "POWER ON STALLS... not very good".
Post flight I told him to write some comments in his training records about things he did good and what he could improve to next time. When I read his notes my heart stopped for a few seconds... "POWER ON STALLS... not very good".
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LOL!
I think instructors have a lot of responsabilities to assume. I would be sleepless as an instructor to send a student solo, really I'd be very nervous until he comes back.
I think instructors have a lot of responsabilities to assume. I would be sleepless as an instructor to send a student solo, really I'd be very nervous until he comes back.
If you have taught a pilot spinning, then why not allow them to go out and practise it solo?
If you are worried that they will do something unsafe then maybe you should have taught it a bit more thoroughly - it doesn't seem to worry people that if a student is sent off to practise solo stalling/slow flight and gets it wrong they could possibly end up in a spin anyway, having never even seen one under the JAR syllabus. Do we as instructors not have a moral duty to ensure that by the time a PPL is issued the holder should be able to cope with any manouevers included in the POH (with the possible exception of aerobatics as they are unlikely to happen accidently)?
If you are worried that they will do something unsafe then maybe you should have taught it a bit more thoroughly - it doesn't seem to worry people that if a student is sent off to practise solo stalling/slow flight and gets it wrong they could possibly end up in a spin anyway, having never even seen one under the JAR syllabus. Do we as instructors not have a moral duty to ensure that by the time a PPL is issued the holder should be able to cope with any manouevers included in the POH (with the possible exception of aerobatics as they are unlikely to happen accidently)?
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I have sent students for checkrides that they passed without problems. I've seen the same students cock up and almost destroy an aircraft (on landing) many hours after they got their PPL.
Personally, I've no faith in my students that they can consistently perform all maneuvers to an acceptable standard. Therefore I am bit reluctant sending them off for critical maneuvers that could easily kill them if they do something wrong (e.g. spinning). Of course, this lack of faith grows away as they gain more and more experience. But still, I would never send off a student for spinning.
Power-off landings I feel OK with, but I prefer if they stop 1000 ft GND abeam their touchdown point. As they gain experience I can let them go lower and start the base turn (500 ft min of course) to let them see if they would make it down. What I am afraid of is that they pull back too much and get low on speed close to ground.
Personally, I've no faith in my students that they can consistently perform all maneuvers to an acceptable standard. Therefore I am bit reluctant sending them off for critical maneuvers that could easily kill them if they do something wrong (e.g. spinning). Of course, this lack of faith grows away as they gain more and more experience. But still, I would never send off a student for spinning.
Power-off landings I feel OK with, but I prefer if they stop 1000 ft GND abeam their touchdown point. As they gain experience I can let them go lower and start the base turn (500 ft min of course) to let them see if they would make it down. What I am afraid of is that they pull back too much and get low on speed close to ground.
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I suppose the main consideration is danger/risk of maneouvre vs learning benifit.
Performing a bad steep turn means perhaps some altitude/bank/balance deviation. A bad PFL means going around knowing you would not have made the field. A bad spin recovery means you crash and burn.
It doesn't seem worth it to me.
Performing a bad steep turn means perhaps some altitude/bank/balance deviation. A bad PFL means going around knowing you would not have made the field. A bad spin recovery means you crash and burn.
It doesn't seem worth it to me.
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excrab
If you have taught a pilot spinning, then why not allow them to go out and practise it solo?
If you are worried that they will do something unsafe then maybe you should have taught it a bit more thoroughly
If you are worried that they will do something unsafe then maybe you should have taught it a bit more thoroughly
First thing, they are not pilots yet, they are student pilots with minimal experience. And thats the word that means everything, experience. Even after passing your PPL, your still learning the basics. We give them enough experience to learn and build on thier skills. A spin is an advanced manouvre and needs technique as well as competance. Maybe in time they can go up again and have a dedicated lesson and then have some fun. At PPL level you are teaching them the basics of recovery.
Best thing is for new PPL'ers to master landing in crosswinds, navigation etc. which are much more use on a day to day basis.
How many people here have inadvertantly spun an aircraft due to lack of concentration. Now how many have been lost or made a pants crosswind landing etc. For me, the first one never but I still do the last one from time to time.
There was probably a reason why its not compulsory on the PPL syllabus!! (UK before someone pipes up about living somewhere else)
I cannot believe that FI's want to send students up, spinning solo. But there is always one (generally more).
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I did my ppl skills test last week and as most students I felt really nervous.
One part I felt really confident with though was stall recoveries and the compulsory pfl.
I believe that this was down to the simple fact that I have spent a lot of time on doing them, both with my instructor and solo.
I can't really see why I shouldn't have been allowed to do stall training as a solo student. I'm sure my instructor wouldn't have authorised me to do them if he wouldn't have had the confidence in my ability to recover in a safe manner.
I believe a good instructor can judge the individual student and make appropriate decisions about what this student is capable of doing or not. By leting a student do things solo that he\she is capable of is very good for confidence, something that can't be bad when it comes to flying.
Doing a lot of stall training, slow flight on the back of the curve etc. at 4000' dual or solo is in my opinion not a bad thing. It made me to understand and appreciate fully what risks we have to be aware of in the takeoff and landing.
One part I felt really confident with though was stall recoveries and the compulsory pfl.
I believe that this was down to the simple fact that I have spent a lot of time on doing them, both with my instructor and solo.
I can't really see why I shouldn't have been allowed to do stall training as a solo student. I'm sure my instructor wouldn't have authorised me to do them if he wouldn't have had the confidence in my ability to recover in a safe manner.
I believe a good instructor can judge the individual student and make appropriate decisions about what this student is capable of doing or not. By leting a student do things solo that he\she is capable of is very good for confidence, something that can't be bad when it comes to flying.
Doing a lot of stall training, slow flight on the back of the curve etc. at 4000' dual or solo is in my opinion not a bad thing. It made me to understand and appreciate fully what risks we have to be aware of in the takeoff and landing.
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I believe that this was down to the simple fact that I have spent a lot of time on doing them, both with my instructor and solo.
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I spent 50 hours on my training before the skills test, so the words "a lot" has to be put in this context. I should probably have used a different wording.
I don't have the log book with me at the moment, since it's with the caa, but I know I spent more time on this exercise than many other students, usually adding in stalls, slow flight, pfls etc. between other exercises.
I don't really buy the fact that many students are taught stall recovery once or twice and when asked:
Q: Did you do a fully developed stall with power and flap applied and experienced a wing drop during your training?
A: I don't think we did.
Anyway, with ppl done and pax in the right seat, I will probably get less of oportunities post-ppl to do those things (and less interest in doing them as well).
50 hours is nothing and I would never go out there and say that I'm experienced with any aspect of flying an aeroplane, but you have to start somewhere.
When it comes to statistics about accidents, I have never read about someone (student or not) losing control and crash from 4000' due to stall training. What is more disturbing though is the fact that accident reports are full of reports where aircrafts stalled just after take-off or on final.
I do agree with recent posts when it comes to spins though. I never did and would never have done them solo whatever the instructor would have said.
I don't have the log book with me at the moment, since it's with the caa, but I know I spent more time on this exercise than many other students, usually adding in stalls, slow flight, pfls etc. between other exercises.
I don't really buy the fact that many students are taught stall recovery once or twice and when asked:
Q: Did you do a fully developed stall with power and flap applied and experienced a wing drop during your training?
A: I don't think we did.
Anyway, with ppl done and pax in the right seat, I will probably get less of oportunities post-ppl to do those things (and less interest in doing them as well).
50 hours is nothing and I would never go out there and say that I'm experienced with any aspect of flying an aeroplane, but you have to start somewhere.
When it comes to statistics about accidents, I have never read about someone (student or not) losing control and crash from 4000' due to stall training. What is more disturbing though is the fact that accident reports are full of reports where aircrafts stalled just after take-off or on final.
I do agree with recent posts when it comes to spins though. I never did and would never have done them solo whatever the instructor would have said.
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engine failures solo
However, I have yet to be one which allows spinning solo.
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What is the point of teaching someone to do something that may save their life i.e. stall recovery in full landing configuration (which is when it is most likely to happen) or judgement of an emergency landing with the appropriate drills and then telling them they are not capable of doing it on their own. If your students aren't to be trusted that is down to you and your ability to teach the point of primacy. In other words the only action is the correct one 
No wonder the people I get for CPL are so hopeless with understanding basic flying skills
No wonder the people I get for CPL are so hopeless with understanding basic flying skills
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Pilotbear
There is a massive difference to someone who is a c.25 hour PPL student going up and practising that stuff and a CPL student who, correct me if I m wrong needs a minimum of 200 hours (licence issue). where alot of that 200 hours should be hour building where they can practise the manouvres with a bit of experience behind them.
If your students have not got the 'basic flying skills', its probably not down the the original instructor (PPL). Its probably more to do with him/her not using their hour building constructively.
I am surprised as a CPL instructor you cannot see those comaprisons.
If your students have not got the 'basic flying skills', its probably not down the the original instructor (PPL). Its probably more to do with him/her not using their hour building constructively.
I am surprised as a CPL instructor you cannot see those comaprisons.
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I believe the ppl-student period in your flight training must be one of the most important ones, especially if you start from zero with no flying background what so ever.
For me it was very much about confidence and if my instructor would have told me I can't do this or that solo it would definately have worked against my confidence building. If I would have had no stalls, pfls etc. as a solo student where would I be today as new holder of a ppl?
I know where I would be. I would be a scared pilot in command, not sure if I could handle an emergency and save pax and myself.
The key to flying is confidence!
With low confidence I would probably be to scared to do pfls, stalls and other manouvers nessecary for basic flying and safety. My instructor always told me not to do it solo.....
I can understand pilotbears concern. 200 hours later, when its time for cpl, this initial ppl instructor might have had a serious effect on how prepared the pilot is for his cpl.
For me it was very much about confidence and if my instructor would have told me I can't do this or that solo it would definately have worked against my confidence building. If I would have had no stalls, pfls etc. as a solo student where would I be today as new holder of a ppl?
I know where I would be. I would be a scared pilot in command, not sure if I could handle an emergency and save pax and myself.
The key to flying is confidence!
With low confidence I would probably be to scared to do pfls, stalls and other manouvers nessecary for basic flying and safety. My instructor always told me not to do it solo.....
I can understand pilotbears concern. 200 hours later, when its time for cpl, this initial ppl instructor might have had a serious effect on how prepared the pilot is for his cpl.
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Any FI would say to a student 'not to do' something purely for safety reasons. Not due to the fact they think he/she can't do it. Nothing to do with their (at that point basic) ability, but safety.
The key to flying is not just confidence. It also experience. The AAIB has reports full of people doing things they were not fully trained for, not had the experience for and being to over confident for.....etc. Some of those are no longer with us.
Sending people off to the local area solo, circuits solo, navigation solo, general handling solo is normally all that is needed to build that confidence you were talking about.
If a 25 odd hour PPL goes up to do PFL's. A very new exercise at that point. Who is there to give advice and get them to learn from mistakes. How can that student really know where he/she went wrong. They simply don't have the experience to know it.
I cannot inderstand that if you did not do these exercises solo at student level, that you would be a scared PIC. That just says that any flying have done since PPL issue counts in no way to your skills, abilities and understanding. When you do your one hour with an instructor for PPL renewal, what do you do?
When you stall say a 152 with power on, you get a wing drop (generally). Students have put me into a spin while panicking. What if that happened solo? How un-nerved would he/she be and how would that effect the rest of the flight? Had the FI taught spinning at that point? probably not as its not part of the syllabus.
These are the questions FI's ask ourselves before sending the very novice aviator solo.
The key to flying is not just confidence. It also experience. The AAIB has reports full of people doing things they were not fully trained for, not had the experience for and being to over confident for.....etc. Some of those are no longer with us.
Sending people off to the local area solo, circuits solo, navigation solo, general handling solo is normally all that is needed to build that confidence you were talking about.
If a 25 odd hour PPL goes up to do PFL's. A very new exercise at that point. Who is there to give advice and get them to learn from mistakes. How can that student really know where he/she went wrong. They simply don't have the experience to know it.
I cannot inderstand that if you did not do these exercises solo at student level, that you would be a scared PIC. That just says that any flying have done since PPL issue counts in no way to your skills, abilities and understanding. When you do your one hour with an instructor for PPL renewal, what do you do?
When you stall say a 152 with power on, you get a wing drop (generally). Students have put me into a spin while panicking. What if that happened solo? How un-nerved would he/she be and how would that effect the rest of the flight? Had the FI taught spinning at that point? probably not as its not part of the syllabus.
These are the questions FI's ask ourselves before sending the very novice aviator solo.
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Might be missing something, but where did "25 hours" come from? Surely about 40 hours (or 5 - 10 hours before the skill test) is when a student should be doing pfl's and stalls on their own? By that time they would have enough skill to both practice them safely on their own, and evaluate their performance on their own.
I think that late in the training the students need to be taught what things are safe for them to go practicing on their own, how to do it, and be allowed to do it that way in those hours before the skill test. E.g., do pfl's up to a point abeam the chosen touch down point at 1,000 ft, and do imminent stalls and the occasional basic full stall but stay well clear of intentionally aggravated stalls, or words to similar effect.
What we need to avoid is the widespread and very dangerous notion that you do things one way during training and a completely different way as soon as you get the PPL. The student who has been forbidden to do any kind of stall practice prior to obtaining their license, and who have not been told and shown how to safely practice on their own, is the one who will go up and do aggravated stalls alone on their first flight after the skill test, since he is now finally allowed to do so and knows no better... But the student who has been shown how to progress from a 25 hour student via a 40 hour student to a 48 hour fresh PPL, and how to safely build one's skills on one's own from that point on, will become the best pilot. IMHO...
I think that late in the training the students need to be taught what things are safe for them to go practicing on their own, how to do it, and be allowed to do it that way in those hours before the skill test. E.g., do pfl's up to a point abeam the chosen touch down point at 1,000 ft, and do imminent stalls and the occasional basic full stall but stay well clear of intentionally aggravated stalls, or words to similar effect.
What we need to avoid is the widespread and very dangerous notion that you do things one way during training and a completely different way as soon as you get the PPL. The student who has been forbidden to do any kind of stall practice prior to obtaining their license, and who have not been told and shown how to safely practice on their own, is the one who will go up and do aggravated stalls alone on their first flight after the skill test, since he is now finally allowed to do so and knows no better... But the student who has been shown how to progress from a 25 hour student via a 40 hour student to a 48 hour fresh PPL, and how to safely build one's skills on one's own from that point on, will become the best pilot. IMHO...
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Bjorn
What we need to avoid is the widespread and very dangerous notion that you do things one way during training and a completely different way as soon as you get the PPL
Might be missing something, but where did "25 hours" come from? Surely about 40 hours (or 5 - 10 hours before the skill test)
That is when I do not think its appropriate for these types of exercise.
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If I would have had no stalls, pfls etc. as a solo student where would I be today as new holder of a ppl?
I know where I would be. I would be a scared pilot in command, not sure if I could handle an emergency and save pax and myself.
I know where I would be. I would be a scared pilot in command, not sure if I could handle an emergency and save pax and myself.
I see people at my flying school, very proud of doing spins, stalls and spirals, like it was the ultimate top gun manoeuver, and then, when there is more than 10 kts crosswind, they are scared to fly....
I have just passed my commercial flight test, and I will ask once in a while (every month) to fly with an instructor to re-do these manoeuvers, just to make sure I am still proficient, but I won't do them solo, I find it pointless.