Gear Down and welded. Never use park brakes. The myths continue
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Talked to several students flying a C152 who have been taught to "pick up" any wing drop at point of stall solely with rudder by pushing lots of rudder to skid the dropped wing around into level flight without
if the airleron are not of the 'Frise type' then the old style ailerons would accelerate a stall into a spin---for aerobatic students the use of ailerons in a stall is Verbotten
Not a myth necessarily
READ the AFM/POH!!!
PA
Talked to several students flying a C152 who have been taught to "pick up" any wing drop at point of stall solely with rudder by pushing lots of rudder to skid the dropped wing around into level flight without
if the airleron are not of the 'Frise type' then the old style ailerons would accelerate a stall into a spin---for aerobatic students the use of ailerons in a stall is Verbotten
Not a myth necessarily
READ the AFM/POH!!!
PA
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Sound advice there about the wing drop. It is a fine distinction between preventing further wing drop and 'picking the wing up' i.e. trying to get to wings level using the rudder. I remember my instructor using the latter phrase but meaning the former ( I asked!)
Re the U/c checks I learned on a C150 and initially followed U with 'check undercarriage' which promted a look at the Left wheel out the window and a look across to the FI asking him to check his side. Later on a 152 flying solo I had to stop using the U 'undercarriage fixed and locked' from the FTO checklist and revert to a visual check after I saw a Jetstream attempt a wheels up. I realised that unless you will never fly a retractable that the U has to be a positive check of something rather than a simple confirmation that the gear is fixed down and locked - becuase you usually fly a fixed gear.
Re the U/c checks I learned on a C150 and initially followed U with 'check undercarriage' which promted a look at the Left wheel out the window and a look across to the FI asking him to check his side. Later on a 152 flying solo I had to stop using the U 'undercarriage fixed and locked' from the FTO checklist and revert to a visual check after I saw a Jetstream attempt a wheels up. I realised that unless you will never fly a retractable that the U has to be a positive check of something rather than a simple confirmation that the gear is fixed down and locked - becuase you usually fly a fixed gear.
Excellent thread - just wanted to add that in most of the non-aerobatic [non-spin approved traing airplanes] the best way to prevent a spin is to teach the students to use the rudder to keep the ball centered [ or yawstring]... many CFI's are hesitant about stalls from banked attitudes, but if you are not side slipping you will most likely avoid the spin regime,...in the case of a stall from a banked attitude--- keep the ailerons neutral--- i.e. ---lower the AOA first --then unbank---as per a regular 'spiral dive recovery' the most important thing with stall is to make instinctive the lowering of AoA while preventing a sideslip---that's how ailerons are properly used in a stall
PA
PA
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Re gear down IMHO it depends. If a person is to fly nothing but fixed gear the argument can well be made that its redundant, but we know how pilots love to upgrade and take on new challenges. In 1957 as a 14 year old a local pilot took pity on this airport brat and would give a bit of stick time in an Auster as encouragement. One thing he did was make me learn the pre take off checks, which at this ripe old age is still the only think I can rattle off without thinking.
Hatches
Harness
Trim
Mixture
Pitch (Prop)
Panel
Fuel
Flaps
Gills (Cowl Flaps)
Gyros
Switches (Mags)
Controls
Lookout
Now you can argue about the order in which things are listed, but the point is, it covered just about everything you would find in a GA aircraft. As far as the Auster went it lacked mixture, prop, cowl flaps and gyros so those items were redundant, but whatever GA cockpit I was in that was the checklist. I'm aware of an operator who has many types on line - Cessna 182, Cessna 207, Cessna 210 and Airvan. Do you think that a pilot jumping from type to type in the course of a days work flying in +40°C weather may save him/herself from embarrassment by incorporating the gear down check irrespective of what they may be flying at the time? In the circumstances I would have the pilots doing a gear check in the Airvan/182/207, the price of having a pilot jump into a 210 and do this would make you weep.
The above video - There was a snow storm approaching in about an hour and we were doing a check ride. Because of possible ice, we had been flying with the gear down the entire time. We started doing touch and goes after a while. Habit when you take off is to raise the gear. This is what happened. So, when we come around, they were conversing and what not and simply forgot the gear was up.
Wonder if the instructor passed the checkride himself?
Even the very best and experienced can get caught out. One nearly planted a 747 gear up on a LAX runway.
Pelican's Perch #80: Gear-Up Landing In A 747?
Hatches
Harness
Trim
Mixture
Pitch (Prop)
Panel
Fuel
Flaps
Gills (Cowl Flaps)
Gyros
Switches (Mags)
Controls
Lookout
Now you can argue about the order in which things are listed, but the point is, it covered just about everything you would find in a GA aircraft. As far as the Auster went it lacked mixture, prop, cowl flaps and gyros so those items were redundant, but whatever GA cockpit I was in that was the checklist. I'm aware of an operator who has many types on line - Cessna 182, Cessna 207, Cessna 210 and Airvan. Do you think that a pilot jumping from type to type in the course of a days work flying in +40°C weather may save him/herself from embarrassment by incorporating the gear down check irrespective of what they may be flying at the time? In the circumstances I would have the pilots doing a gear check in the Airvan/182/207, the price of having a pilot jump into a 210 and do this would make you weep.
The above video - There was a snow storm approaching in about an hour and we were doing a check ride. Because of possible ice, we had been flying with the gear down the entire time. We started doing touch and goes after a while. Habit when you take off is to raise the gear. This is what happened. So, when we come around, they were conversing and what not and simply forgot the gear was up.
Wonder if the instructor passed the checkride himself?
Even the very best and experienced can get caught out. One nearly planted a 747 gear up on a LAX runway.
Pelican's Perch #80: Gear-Up Landing In A 747?
Last edited by Brian Abraham; 4th May 2009 at 05:04.
Hatches
Harness
Trim
Mixture
Pitch (Prop)
Panel
Fuel
Flaps
Gills (Cowl Flaps)
Gyros
Switches (Mags)
Controls
Lookout
Now you can argue about the order in which things are listed, but the point is, it covered just about everything you would find in a GA aircraft. As far as the Auster went it lacked mixture, prop, cowl flaps and gyros so those items were redundant
Harness
Trim
Mixture
Pitch (Prop)
Panel
Fuel
Flaps
Gills (Cowl Flaps)
Gyros
Switches (Mags)
Controls
Lookout
Now you can argue about the order in which things are listed, but the point is, it covered just about everything you would find in a GA aircraft. As far as the Auster went it lacked mixture, prop, cowl flaps and gyros so those items were redundant
Last edited by Skylark58; 3rd May 2009 at 22:06.
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So not everything then? Such as landing gear? So not really a universal checklist at all.
Last edited by Brian Abraham; 3rd May 2009 at 02:11.
A GUMP check is a memory item, not a checklist item. If a pilot follows his POH recommendations, uses his checklists, lives a clean sober life and still, on short final says to himself (with appropriate fingerprint applications) Gas, Undercarriage... He may still land in a screwed-up configuration, but he'll never hear the ugly clatter of a couple of props scoring the tarmac.
Oh, and by the way, the c150/152 were designed to spin (in an era when such was required). Crossing them up in the stall is a bad idea. They do not behave like Cherokees.
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Quote:
Quote:
Talked to several students flying a C152 who have been taught to "pick up" any wing drop at point of stall solely with rudder by pushing lots of rudder to skid the dropped wing around into level flight without
if the airleron are not of the 'Frise type' then the old style ailerons would accelerate a stall into a spin---for aerobatic students the use of ailerons in a stall is Verbotten
Not a myth necessarily
READ the AFM/POH!!!
PA
The Myth is not that you do not pick up the wing [i]in a stall[i] with Ailerons, but that you DO pick it up with rudder, the point here is that you do not pick the wing up while the wing is stalled, you prevent further wing drop with rudder (note - not picking the wing up, just stopping more drop), then recover from the stall and only then roll the wings level using aileron!
Quote:
Talked to several students flying a C152 who have been taught to "pick up" any wing drop at point of stall solely with rudder by pushing lots of rudder to skid the dropped wing around into level flight without
if the airleron are not of the 'Frise type' then the old style ailerons would accelerate a stall into a spin---for aerobatic students the use of ailerons in a stall is Verbotten
Not a myth necessarily
READ the AFM/POH!!!
PA
The Myth is not that you do not pick up the wing [i]in a stall[i] with Ailerons, but that you DO pick it up with rudder, the point here is that you do not pick the wing up while the wing is stalled, you prevent further wing drop with rudder (note - not picking the wing up, just stopping more drop), then recover from the stall and only then roll the wings level using aileron!
been a while since I did any primary instruction, however....
To prevent further wing drop (i.e. stop the wing drop) would require a rolling couple in the opposite direction to the wing drop, which would mean more lift on the down going wing than the upgoing wing.
Rather, IIRC, the point of rudder application is to prevent further yaw, thereby avoiding / delaying any autorotation whilst you conduct the rest of the recovery.
pb
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Got to agree with the pitbull ...
for what its worth ... my thoughts ....
Two things are required for spin ... wing stalled and yaw - remove one or both and no spin
- Move control centrally forward until stall warning goes away (clear indication that wing no longer stalled - audible stall warning usually Vs + 5 or 10)
- Prevent further yaw with rudder
- Apply power of course to recover to Vy
If you try to "pick up a wing" with rudder the result could be a more agreesive wingdrop or spin in the opposite direction
Neil
for what its worth ... my thoughts ....
Two things are required for spin ... wing stalled and yaw - remove one or both and no spin
- Move control centrally forward until stall warning goes away (clear indication that wing no longer stalled - audible stall warning usually Vs + 5 or 10)
- Prevent further yaw with rudder
- Apply power of course to recover to Vy
If you try to "pick up a wing" with rudder the result could be a more agreesive wingdrop or spin in the opposite direction
Neil
The rudder still works when wing is stalled and therefore will correct the developing yaw of the incipient spin in all of your typical trainer/tourers. I get all of my students to set up a power off stall but rather than recover hold the stick full back (centered) and work at using the rudder to stop any yaw. The aircraft nose will bob up and down and the aircraft will try to flick to one side or the other. But aggressive use of the rudder will stop a departure into a spin indefinately. This exercise in my opinion teaches 3 good lessons.
1) controling yaw is the key to spin avoidance and should be pursued regardless of whether or not the airplane is allready stalled
2) This is one of the few exercises where full control inputs must be used. Many students appear to be reluctant to use all the available control authority to make the aircraft do what they want it to do.
3) The very high sink rates that devlop when the aircraft is stalled and therefore why you never want to delay stall recovery.
1) controling yaw is the key to spin avoidance and should be pursued regardless of whether or not the airplane is allready stalled
2) This is one of the few exercises where full control inputs must be used. Many students appear to be reluctant to use all the available control authority to make the aircraft do what they want it to do.
3) The very high sink rates that devlop when the aircraft is stalled and therefore why you never want to delay stall recovery.
Used to teach a long time ago myself, however I also would teach the theory in the classroom ailerons increase the angle of attack and camber etc and so use of them near the stall will aggravate a wing drop.
In the air, I would do the same demonstration/exercise as above, hold the aircraft in the stall, and keep the nose straight with rudder, not aileron. I would also, however, use fairly aggressive aileron in the stall (in a PA28) to show that it was very well designed, and the ailerons did mostly remain effective throughout a normal stall.
(from PEI 3721, on the Continental turboprop crash thread in R&N)
Occasionally, to prove the effect, however, I would then set up a full power climbing turn (like after take off) and bleed the speed back. With the overbanking tendency in a climbing turn, you could easily show full right aileron, with the aircraft rolling to the left as the stall took hold - and this was slow enough to patter through the process and point out the ineffective aileron. (Yes, I was a rated aerobatic instructor, no I didn't spin it, yes it was at a safe height, no it wasn't with every student.)
As I recall, the requirement for spin training was dropped in the 60s when the WW2 trainers were replaced by aircraft that weren't certified for spinning. The "recovery from an incipient spin" was introduced as a basic cover - and this exercise is what introduced the "rudder to pick up a wing" bit.
Is it possible that, as spin training is so rare now, that the general pilot population (who have never spun an aircraft) now have the impression that using the rudder near the stall is dangerous because "that's what you do to enter a spin!". This would be a complete misunderstanding of of the incipient spin training - that using the aileron to attempt to level the wing while in a stalled condition may induce a spin! "Using the rudder to pick up the wing" is not technically correct - but is as close as is now allowed to teach spin recovery. That is - it is the correct action, in the incorrect (but legally required) circumstance.
In the air, I would do the same demonstration/exercise as above, hold the aircraft in the stall, and keep the nose straight with rudder, not aileron. I would also, however, use fairly aggressive aileron in the stall (in a PA28) to show that it was very well designed, and the ailerons did mostly remain effective throughout a normal stall.
Note that aircraft certification (CS/FAR 25.203) discusses the use of all controls up to the time of stall and for recovery.
“25.203 (a) It must be possible to produce and to correct roll and yaw by unreversed use of aileron and rudder controls, up to the time the aeroplane is stalled. … … In addition, it must be possible to promptly prevent stalling and to recover from a stall by normal use of the controls.”
“Normal use of the lateral control must produce (or correct) a roll, and normal use of the directional control must produce (or correct) a yaw in the applied direction up to the point where the airplane is considered stalled. It must be possible to prevent or recover from a stall by normal use of the controls”.
“25.203 (a) It must be possible to produce and to correct roll and yaw by unreversed use of aileron and rudder controls, up to the time the aeroplane is stalled. … … In addition, it must be possible to promptly prevent stalling and to recover from a stall by normal use of the controls.”
“Normal use of the lateral control must produce (or correct) a roll, and normal use of the directional control must produce (or correct) a yaw in the applied direction up to the point where the airplane is considered stalled. It must be possible to prevent or recover from a stall by normal use of the controls”.
Occasionally, to prove the effect, however, I would then set up a full power climbing turn (like after take off) and bleed the speed back. With the overbanking tendency in a climbing turn, you could easily show full right aileron, with the aircraft rolling to the left as the stall took hold - and this was slow enough to patter through the process and point out the ineffective aileron. (Yes, I was a rated aerobatic instructor, no I didn't spin it, yes it was at a safe height, no it wasn't with every student.)
As I recall, the requirement for spin training was dropped in the 60s when the WW2 trainers were replaced by aircraft that weren't certified for spinning. The "recovery from an incipient spin" was introduced as a basic cover - and this exercise is what introduced the "rudder to pick up a wing" bit.
Is it possible that, as spin training is so rare now, that the general pilot population (who have never spun an aircraft) now have the impression that using the rudder near the stall is dangerous because "that's what you do to enter a spin!". This would be a complete misunderstanding of of the incipient spin training - that using the aileron to attempt to level the wing while in a stalled condition may induce a spin! "Using the rudder to pick up the wing" is not technically correct - but is as close as is now allowed to teach spin recovery. That is - it is the correct action, in the incorrect (but legally required) circumstance.
Last edited by Checkboard; 15th May 2009 at 00:16.
I don't agree with 'rudder to pick up the wing'. Rudder as necessary to prevent yaw** is my thought about the matter, even if a wing is low. After controlled flight is regained ie no longer stalled following a conventional 'pitch to reduce AoA / available power to reduce altitude loss' input, then use aileron to roll to wings level and resume normal flight.
**Even better is to keep the ball centred but not every a/c must have a balance ball and, quite frankly, I doubt most VFR pilots flying by looking out the window will even look at the ball. God knows, they probably weren't paying too much to the instruments to get into a stall in the first place.
**Even better is to keep the ball centred but not every a/c must have a balance ball and, quite frankly, I doubt most VFR pilots flying by looking out the window will even look at the ball. God knows, they probably weren't paying too much to the instruments to get into a stall in the first place.
