hopeless cases

[hotcloud]

"It isn't the military - you can't chop somebody".

If a student is not progressing well, I hope that there are no instructors that will consider giving the student the chop (i.e. tell he/she to give up), as many factors have to be considered such as:-

Student/instructor relationship
Student domestic situation (may be going through a bad patch)
Instructor domestic situation (also may be going through a bad patch)
Learing style of the student
Teaching style of the instructor

Prior to becoming a full time instructor I was on the Senior Management Team heading a Human Resources Department. As a Senior Manager I had to attend many courses and undertook the Myers Briggs personality test. (I am an ISTP). It really gave me an insight as to how we all perceive things differently. As with any personality type there are strengths and weaknesses. There are some very judgemental personality types who will simply not bend and what they say goes, so if an instructor with this personality type encounters a student who they percieve to be failing they will tell them so in no uncertain terms. Is that right? Some would say so, but others with my personality profile would deal with the matter in a different way. Don't get me wrong, if I had a student who was not progressing despite my best efforts, I would see if another instructor could assist, after all the other instructor may be able to take a different approach.

In a nutshell, if someone is going to get the chop, it should not be a decision made by one instructor, all other options should be explored..

[granlistillo]

I tend to agree, "giving the chop" should be a last resort. I helped a flight school owner set up a career pilot program, and learned a lot from him. If a student was not progressing, he and the chief pilot would set them down and work with them. He was honest and told them where they stood, and that no shortcuts would be taken. Many of them got through their training at great cost to them, but they made it.

The same guy also had an "idiot clause" in his terms and conditions agreement. Basically, you show a haphazard or dangerous attitude toward flying and you can go somewhere else.

In one case they had a student come to a lesson with alcohol on his breath. He obviously didnt fly, and they had a serious talk with him and put him under close scrutiny. Personally, I would have summarily shown him the door off the property.

[blueplume]

granlistillo

Good luck, you're going to need it.

[granlistillo]

Thanks for the encouragement blueflamer-another sign of your maturity.

Are you going to make any comments germane to this thread?

In the context of this thread what will I need luck for? I fly jets for a living, never failed a checkride in my life so I dont think I am a hopeless case. Very few are truly hopeless. I certainly want to do all I can to encourage those who strive to reach their goals.

[Vee1Kut]

Another thought

We should start a thread about hopeless instructors...

[timzsta]

Until you have flown with someone who is a hopeless case you are not qualified to talk about it. When your sat there hopelessly low and slow on the approach, stall warner blaring and you calmy say for the umpteenth time "stick forward, apply power" and the student closes the throttle and pulls back on the controls, then you will understand. If they are not capable, they are not capable, you shouldn't keep taking their money or letting them hold onto an impossible dream, it is just wrong.

And should you finally decide your hopeless case is ready to fly solo just remember whose license the student is flying solo on, and who will be infront of the Judge at the subsequent coroners inquest should anything happen. I have seen it happen and it's not pretty or pleasant for all involved. If anyone wants to PM me feel free...

[VFE]

When I first started instructing I'd allow the student the chance to get "hopelessly low and slow on the approach" before intervening with my "superior skill....."

......you can see where this is going can't you.....

Now, after a few years instructing, I will allow the student less chance to get "hopelessly low and slow on the approach" by using my "superior judgement...." and what is more - have developed the ability to impart that "superior judgement" onto the student as is my role.

Too many "hopelessly low and slow on approach" moments make you develop better instructional methods in my experience.

VFE.

[timzsta]

I do not consider myself superior in any way to any of my students. I tell them right at the start I am not a better pilot then them, I merely have a little more experience.

[VFE]

And I bet that nice little speel makes you feel a little less crusty.... and they'll still screw it up until you intervene nonetheless.

VFE.

[IO540]

Unfortunately (or fortunately) I have come across instructors who just love hopeless students.

I know of three people who took over 100hrs. Two of them never got the PPL and AFAIK (lost touch with them) continued to fly with an instructor in the RHS, and the third got her PPL after spending about £20,000. The instructor was telling me with glee how much she had spent. He had a special revenue maximisation technique which was to knock the student's confidence (easier to do with women, in general, perhaps?) just about the time he/she was making progress. In fact she got her PPL only after moving.

This instructor is not instructing anymore, TMK. But these practices were pretty widespread in one or two places I used to hang out.

Let's be brutally frank and cynical. The way the PPL training business is set up, the business incentive to deliver a licensed (I should say "competent" but that would sound too ambitious) pilot is exactly zero. This isn't the RAF. There is therefore bound to be a (small) number of instructors who reach the obvious conclusion and have no problem with the ethics.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I've never come across FI's doing that, but if they are, then they should be taken out and birched. Our job is to do what's best for our students, if anyone is trashing confidence and knocking someone down to maximise revenue, then I hope they never darken my door. They'd get a smack in the face if that was how they worked.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Students who will never make it and should stop but refuse to accept the fact exist. I've had at least 4.

Intructors/Schools who bleed people of money for the sake of it definitely exist and I worked for one once.

So many Wannabes - so much naivety..


WWW

[Say again s l o w l y]

One of the truest statements I've ever read on here.

Many times I've flown with people who have obviously had sunshine blown up their backsides at other places, especially in regard to their potential as commercial pilots. Sometimes this industry should hang it's head in shame.

[VFE]

I have overheard CPL instructors saying how "so and so" would never make it as an airline pilot. That particular "so and so" is now flying for a major!

It is often uncertain at the training stage as to whether anyone will cut the mustard higher up... The deal is we train someone to the standard they need to be in order to pass their next test whatever test that may be. If it means we have to be honest when it's obviously gonna cost them more money then that too is part of the job in my opinion. I think the vast majority of instructors are ethically sound in that respect.

Every PPL student I instruct is viewed on their own merits based essentially on their goal and age. The way I gear a flying lesson would not be the same for a 17 year old airline pilot wannabe as a 65 year old fly-for-fun type who's undecided on whether he actually wants a licence yet. One thing is for certain though - I would never suggest to a young airline pilot wannabe that I don't think he's cut out for it as I have no real basis for an opinion. This standpoint has sod all to do with ethics unless one is involved with airline pilot recruitment or testing. Ethics need a foundation. In short, my view counts for nothing on that level and I'd be seriously jumped up to even suggest it to a young PPL student, even the poorest in quality, passing through my flying school.

VFE.

[hugh flung_dung]

Timzsta, the root of your student's problems may partially be in your technique.
You said "... and you calmly say for the umpteenth time "stick forward, apply power" " - but this does not teach judgement. I respectfully suggest that a better approach (ahem) would be to say "check your speed and correct it" followed later by "is your approach angle correct? ... how can you fix it?". By doing this, and with appropriate demonstrations and breaking-down of the task, the student learns judgement and practices corrections rather than just being an extension of your own approach processing (can't think of a better term).

HFD

[George Semel]

I been flying for a lot of years, almost 34 years now. And I started out as a flight instructor, and I still teach on my off days. I seen a lot of different students over the years, and I gotten quite a few from others that thought were more or less didn't have "The Right Stuff". Its BS, anybody can learn to fly its not hard, most student problems, are instructor problems. Poor instruction is the problem. I do it a little different than most. When a student is having a problem and not progressing at a reasonable pace, I change things a little, Go fly someplace for lunch, and as he or she masters a skill, I will have that student teach me that skill as if I was a student and he/she is a flight instructor. The Funny thing is that it works. Teaching somebody to do something teaches you to do it better. I had a student once that could taxi an airplane pretty good but had problems with the radio, was just afraid to talk on the dam thing, so one day I told him that its going to be a ground lesson and you are going to teach me how to talk on the radio. It worked well enough for him to get passed that hurtle. He was just a little nerved up about the whole thing and by having him just talk, got him over it. Flies an RJ now. yea he needed extra dual thru the whole program, everybody is different and you have to be able to change your approach for each student.

[flygirl 001]

What I do with the hopeless students is quote them lines from Pulp Fiction...do you read the bible Brad...the path of the righteous....etc etc... you know how it goes then shoot them....just joking..

[Vortex Thing]

Open door, pull pin, lob it in, fire in the hole......

QFE

I would never suggest to a young airline pilot wannabe that I don't think he's cut out for it as I have no real basis for an opinion.

What even as a full time professional instructor you haven't got a basis for opinion to see if someone will acheive something that you hold i.e a CPL(A).

So who would be the best person to refer said student to now for an opinion. Errm well George Semel and WWW and perhaps even I would be a good start but hey what would we know as we only

dabble in instruction part time

Sarcasm aside I agree with WWW have seen 3 of my schools continue with students who stated at the outset that they wanted nothing but commercial who were undoubtedly going to have to pay well over the odds. The IR usually does the trick.

On the PPL side though I remember only 3 students I have met who would never achieve a safe PPL standard even on their best days. I told them as much and they continued flying in the knowledge that they would only ever fly as students, 2 still fly and still enjoy it (no sight of a licence though), fair play to them.

I at first thought the smaller the school the more likely this would be but in reality as most are capable of PPL what I found was that the real villains of these stories are the commercial schools who continue with students sometimes lying just for the sake of extra revenue. I'd like to say this is the minority but if I did I'd be lying. Business it appears to some will always be business.

[Whirlybird]

have seen 3 of my schools continue with students who stated at the outset that they wanted nothing but commercial who were undoubtedly going to have to pay well over the odds.

In which case, that is what you tell them. But... "Fred, you seem to be struggling a bit, and it's going to take you well over minimum hours and cost you a lot of money to do this", is very, very different from..."Fred, you're never ever going to make it as a pilot, no matter how hard you try".

[Say again s l o w l y]

There is a big, big difference between someone who struggles a bit and someone who is a "hopeless case".

Hopeless cases are just that. No chance. You could throw millions at their training and it wouldn't matter. They are rare beasts though, but when you meet one. You know instantly!
Someone who needs extra support? Well, that's what we're paid for. As long as they are aware that it will take them a bit longer, but that you will be with them every step of the way, then fine.