hopeless cases

[hotcloud]

For my sins I have been flying 25 years and instructing for 12 of them. I have had to deal with a wide range of student ability. Indeed several students had admitted to me from the onset that they were not particuliarly academic and would struggle with their flying. I took this on board and customised my instructional technique to fit their needs, as I appreciate that one size does not fit all. From my experience (4652 instructional hours) by far the majority of the students are capable of gaining a PPL, however I am sure that many students would give up if they did not receive the right support (How many of us can remember a teacher at school who had been negative and crushed our confidence only to be proved wrong in later years). As instructors we have a huge responsibility and if we get it wrong we can damage the confidence of the student. I like to think that I have a relaxed teaching style and a friendly professional approach. In the back of my mind I always have these words, informative, safe and fun.

There are occasions when the student hits a brick wall and progress stalls, however in my very first ground school I tell students that progress will not be at a linear rate and that it may even go backwards occasionally, therefore when students hit that brick wall I remind them on what I said at the first ground school. I am not afraid to point out mistakes and will package my delivery in a way that does not shatter the confidence of the student, as Frank Carson would say "it's the way you tell em". I also will introduce my student to others that are at the same stage to enable them to compare notes, they soon realise that everyone struggles from time to time and that actually makes them feel better.

We had a student at our flying school who struggled with the flying and the instructor was completely honest with regard to his progress. The student still wanted to continue despite the very slow progress. This particular student passed his skills test 2 years ago after 280 hours over several years. He now flies on a weekly basis and I can honestly say hand on heart, having been on a check flight with him, that he is a very capable and safe pilot. In some eyes he would have been considered a hopeless case.

[cockney steve]

A wealthy local "wide-boy" decided he must become a Helo pilot.

The local training-school refused his business, on the grounds that he wouldn't "cut the mustard".....so he went elsewhere, eventually qualified, hired a helo and took his wife to see their business-spread from the air.
both died, IIRC, Carb icing,didn't drop collective quick enough...witnesses saw MR tuliped and it dropped like a brick.

IMHO the first training org. were to be commended..they attempted to save him from himself.

[OneIn60rule]

I would say

IF you believe someone will need a lot of training to get through. Do tell them.

I would not say:"you are below average therefore it will take time"

Err... who wants to be told that?

Honesty is one thing but shattering is another.

1/60

[Pace]

When I learnt to fly 20 years ago there was a female pilot who fitted that category. She was sent solo and then freaked out and froze in the circuit on her first solo.

I can remember her screaming over the radio that she couldnt land the aircraft. It took another aircraft and a lot of talking to get her to regain her composure and to land back on the runway.

VFE Firstly I am not an instructor as such but am a biz jet and twin prop pilot with an ATP. The above from my previous post actually happened. Who let a neurotic girl like that go solo? Before letting someone go solo you surely have to weigh up the whole pilot. At the time we all thought we were going to end up with a dead girl such was her panic but someone missed that time bomb in her. I agree with another poster that if a student is safe and competant to fly solo they should achieve a PPL.

Broomstick wrote

Quite recently, I came across a guy who, I am reliably informed, had apparently done about 300 hrs Cessna spamcan flying at a UK club (Ł40K+?) just to get an NPPL.

He took up flying to overcome a fear of flying; but despite his NPPL flying still terrifies him. He still never flies without an instructor in the right hand seat.

Worst of all, he is a small businessman and had to remortgage his home to fund this training. He now has no pension provision and a mortgage debt so large that he will never be able to afford to retire: he will have to work until he drops.

I would suggest that as an instructor you have a huge responsability in recommending a student as safe to go solo and that you do have to look at the whole person and in a few cases question their motivation.

Pace

[Romeo India Xray]

In a few cases where I found it impossible to make headway, I turned the situation around. You can guage a lot by turning the student into their own instructor - no dont just send them solo and hope for the best. Goes something like this.

Instead of the usual cursory review, recap and briefing (tailored to the sudent), turn the tables on them and ask them what they want to do for that particular flight. This makes it easy to see if they are under expecting or over expecting and then makes it easy to spoon bit sized chunks suitable for that particular student at that particular stage.

Then there is the student who has a simple problem that you just cant see. When I started flying (about 20 years ago), I couldn't land for toffee. I was awful. I would baloon, bounce get the engineers out of the hangar with 0.0 scorecards. I flew with several different instructors who couldn't iron out my landing problems. At altitude I was fine, speed, altitude, heading, trim, but within a few feet of the surface it was bucking bronco all the way. I was getting depressed with the situation because I knew I wanted to fly and knew I wasnt at all that bad except for the landing part. On the verge of giving up I was sent off with an short old instructor. One horribly bounced circuit later he grabbed the throttle as I went to push it for the go after the touch(es). He said "take me back to the clubhouse boy". Out of the aircraft he dashed and came back with a blobby looking thing. "Here put that under yer a*se lad - thats yer only problem, yer can't see out"

I was short and had raised the seat to the top of it's travel but still could see bugger all in the flare (and having had no previous experience just thought this was normal). In one flight this old chap had fixed all my problems. Next landing was a greaser and the one after and the one after that and after about 5 greasers I was solo

I still maintain there are very few people who should not fly at all, just for some of them it would be better to buddy up with a competent owner/PPL (I cant believe I am suggesting this, but we all know it goes on so what the hell), watch, learn, listen and yes ... have a play in the cruise. Spend a few years doing that and then come back for further lessons.

RIX

[joehunt]

VFE

"I am a flying instructor, not a psychiatrist."

You are probably correct, however psychology plays a very big part in effective instruction. It also pays a very big part in effective CRM in a multi crew environment.

[Spunky Monkey]

It isn't the military. You can't chop somebody.

There are difficult cases and there are methods to teach them.

Prehaps the chap with the NPPL needs some goodground school, to help him overcome his fear. When he understands what is going on he may progress further.

After all flying the aircraft should be the last part of the lesson. All too often people are too keen to get flying. This is partly to do with the short lesson allocation and also to do with instructor ability.

I know an instuctor, (who rebuilt my flying skills) who managed to get a chap with severe learning difficulties to do his first solo.
I am happy to pass his details over to you.

I fly with him as often as possible to help polish my skills and improve my patter.
You are never to old to learn.

[Whirlybird]

Incidentally, my first instructor wrote in my student records that I would never learn to fly! Here I am 20 years and 7500 hours later, having trained over 150 instructors

Something similar happened to me, lady in red. In fact, I heard some time later that several instructors (all young and male, as it happens) were placing bets as to whether I'd ever go solo, never mind get a licence. But I got my PPL(A), then a PPL(H), CPL(H) and FI(H) rating. And I seem to have managed to teach quite a number of people to fly R22s, which aren't the easiest flying machines to handle.

I was a slow learner. I also had a poor memory. I knew it, and my instructors knew it. Both they and I got frustrated and impatient about it - and I'd have got on far better without the frustration and impatience adding to the original difficulties. A good instructor needs to believe that the student can do it if he or she really wants to, and be willing to help that student get there, however long it takes them.

That said, of course it's a good idea to point out, but non-critically and non-judgementally, that it might take them a long time and cost them more money than they'd originally thought. I hope my early experiences have made me better at doing that. When I was at school I realised that the best teachers were those who had had difficulties themselves, not those who found everything easy, and I think that definitely applies to flying too.

However, the students who worry me are those with mental problems, for want of a better way of putting it - those who are seriously overconfident, who lack good judgement, or are just plain nutty (good technical term, that). Maybe those can get a licence, but I'm not sure that they should.

[VFE]

Pace, joehunt,

Indeed psychology does play a big part in aviation safety however, nowhere have I read in human factors training where it states a person becomes a qualified psychiatrist on becoming a pilot or instructor. Many like to think they understand peoples minds but the reality is that it's usually the manifestation of an over inflated ego (itself a flight safety issue) which leads people to play the Sigmund Freud part in the cockpit...

Subconsciously, I obviously take onboard a student's perceived personality when training them, but I am also very much aware that I am subconsciously assessing someones mental state whilst they perform in an environment which is extremely unusual for them. Student pilot behaviour is seldom akin to their normal day to day persona, I have witnessed people react in strange ways, I have seen people exude confidence only to crumble when I authorise their solo cross country paperwork. Swings and roundabouts is a good phrase to use. If you cannot understand this fundamental fact then it's as well you do not instruct.

All this said, I would be lying if I told you there wasn't at least one student so far whom I believed I'd never send solo...

VFE.

[B2N2]

It isn't the military. You can't chop somebody

Couldn't agree more.
I would (and will) only chop a student if they display hazardous attitudes.
They may or may not have an accident in the near future, I am not taking the chance.

As far as skill is concerned;
I call it the "3 out of a 100" as in 3% actually has the natural born talent and aptitude to be really really good at this game.
Every body else, including me, are in the big grey area in the middle.
As in, with enough practice they will eventually catch on.
I wasn't a brilliant student pilot by any means, I don't expect anybody else to be either.
The trick is to keep the students (and instructors) frustration level in check.
The instructor needs to adapt to the student, not the other way round.
Having an attitude of : ".....lesson 9 calls for solo...you're not ready..therefore you suck...maybe you should stop..." is arrogant and unnecessary.
I've flown with people that have soloed at 80..90 or even more then a 100 hrs. Eventually they all walked away with a certificate.
Some of them even successfully went on to IR and MEP.

Keep in mind we have a dual role;
We are "gate keepers" as in having the moral obligation to prevent unsafe people from taking to the skies.
We also provide a SERVICE, apart from hazardous attitudes it is not up to us to get a student to stop. It's up to them.
Somebody that shows very very slow progress, but has the right attitude, can be successfully finished. They just need to be kept up to date and reminded that they will need a budget adjustment.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I don't think anyone is advocating that slower students get "chopped".

Mind having taught some real arrogant ar*eholes, there are times when I wished I could have booted them. Though there are ways of bringing down even the most ardent egotistical twonk!

[Yorky Towers]

Say again...

You might not be advocating that slower students get "chopped". However, I do sympathise with you on account you have encountered quite a few "ar*eholes" and "egotistical twonks" whilst doing your utmost to help these people realise their dreams of being able to Pilot an Aircraft. I take my hat off to you for your perseverence.

Regards
Yorky

[Vee1Kut]

Instructing....

A good instructor knows how to overcome students hurdles to becoming good at what they are there to learn, and this applies to lot's of things. I used to get the students that other instructors gave up on. As someone that has been a student of many things...(My latest: Guitar)...I can say that finding a good instructor is about as likely as Pamela Anderson picking me up in a bar for the night of my life. That all said, some students are basket cases, but they like to fly, and while they have issues, and it will 150 hours to get thier PPL a good instructor will help them get there. Primarily the biggest block to students learning is the inability of instructors to simplify and communicate the information to the student. Honestly, most instructors, really just don't know what they are doing. For those that don't believe an instructor should be a layman pschologist, go back to the FI test...LAWS of LEARNING, and all that section entails. Needless to say, if your giving up on the student, just pass him/her along to someone else, don't tell the student that they can't be a pilot...chances are you don't have enough time in the game to honestly make that assessment. Some of my best students came in brow beaten, timid, fearfull, cautious, screwed up.....

[timzsta]

"It isn't the military - you can't chop somebody".

Er yes you can.

Part of our remit as Flying Instructors and Examiners is to decide who is fit to hold a license. And that is both for the point of view can they actualy fly safely enough and that they are of the "right stuff".

When I started I was handed a very determined and likeable young student. I was to be his fourth Instructor. Each of his previous Instructors had told him he was never going to get his license. I made it my goal to get him through. I put my heart and soul into his training, took him right back to basics. Progress was sporadic, slow, sometimes we went backwards. We hit a real low, I told him to stop but he was determined to continue. He said he wanted to do it as much for me as for himself.

Progress began to be made again and eventually at the end of a detail in the circuit where he performed EFATO's, flapless and glide approaches and normal approaches to my satisfaction, all items on the club's pre first solo checklist were complete to the requisite standard (I had by that time become un-restricted). Had it not been for the odd isolated heavy rain shower and forecast of CB activity for the near future I would have sent him off first solo. Next time he will go I told myself. And he felt confident in himself he could do it.

The next time we flew three days later it was like he had never ever flown a circuit detail in his life. In fact at times it was like he had never been in an aircraft. I couldn't believe the difference and it scared the living daylights out of my that I so nearly sent him on his own.

I asked him in the debrief to explain the difference in his performance over the two details. He sat forlorn and sad faced and could offer no explanation. I told him I could never ever authorise him to fly solo. The penny finally dropped for him and we have not heard from him since.

When it comes to the "right stuff" I am talking about the students one occasionally gets who never turn up on time or prepared, won't check the weather or NOTAM's, won't read the Flying Order Book, think they know better then the Instructors and possibly have disobeyed the instructions given by their FI's with regard to solo flight.

I have had just such a chap as well and CFI, Deputy CFI and myself had to have a long chat amongst ourselves and with said student. Eventually the penny dropped and he fell into line. Had he not we were not prepared to let him get his license at our Flying Club. All has ended satisfactorily and he has just sent his paperwork to the CAA for license issue.

[Thud105]

In my experience, although most people can eventually be trained to fly - there are a few who never will. The important thing is to level with them - some really don't want to ever go solo, they just enjoy flying.

[granlistillo]

Stanford Tuck

There once was a pilot trainee named Tuck
Who couldnt fly worth a ????
It came to his last flight
and by George he got it right
And he went on to murder the Luftwaffe bastids

Flying is in large part mental. Unfortunately in some cases the student will be self defeated before they ever get into the air, and there is not much an instructor can do about it.

[blueplume]

granlistillo

There once was a pilot trainee named Tuck
Who couldnt fly worth a ????
It came to his last flight
and by George he got it right
And he went on to murder the Luftwaffe bastids

Congratulations on the non sequitur. One of the the strangest comments ever made on pprune.

You've got issues, dude!

[granlistillo]

Non sequitur?

Nah

One of the greatest pilots of all times came within one flight of being kicked out of the RAF, when he first started. His troubled start is well documented. I've read several accounts that he only learned to relax when he was sure he would not pass his elimination ride, and that seemed to fix his training woes. Had he not had a patient instructor who appreciated his attitude, he might not have made it.

But hey, any reasonable talk with you is probably wasted on you if you must respond with an Ad Hominen response.

Edit: googled robert tuck flight training and on page one of results.
Hopeless case?

Robert Stanford [email protected]

The R.A.F.'s great war ace got off to a bad start. The ability to fly seemed to evade him. With far more hours of training than most of his classmates, Bob Tuck was still an unsafe and unskilled pilot. During the actual flight of his final test, Tuck was hung-over and sure of failing. This triggered a "don't care" attitude that apparently allowed him to relax enough to fly properly for the first time.
Robert Stanford Tuck: World War II RAF Ace Pilot HistoryNet
October 24, 1935, No. 3 Flying School, Royal Air Force Station, Grantham, England. An Avro Tutor biplane trainer sits on the end of the grass runway. In the front cockpit is a student pilot officer with 13 hours of dual instruction behind him–obviously a slow learner. If he doesn’t do well on this flight, he will be sent home. His name is Robert Tuck.

[blueplume]

I think you didn't quite understand my point.

Don't make assumptions about being able to talk reasonably with me. You know nothing about me.

I am suggesting that your little rhyme, which isn't one, has very little to do with learning to fly and the methods used to teach people. Hence non sequitur. We all know that most of the fighter pilots in the latter stages of the war were given very little training because they were not expected to survive more than a couple of outings.

None of which has any relevance to this thread because a. we are not living under the circumstances of the second world war and b. we are talking about civilian training in the 21st century for which payment is made.

Good for Friar Tuck, I'm sure he enjoyed "murdering Luftwaffe bastids", as you put it so eloquently.

[granlistillo]

No, and I don't really care to know about you, based upon your initial manners. But since you have shown some improvement, and I tend to like even the most disagreeable people, we can continue civil discourse.

Tuck was receiving training in a tiger moth, and at this stage of the game was learning basic stick and rudder skills to enable him to get around the "circuit". He was a ball of nerves and it led to among other things overcontrolling. Sounds a lot like the flying club PPL hopeless cases read about here. He did not as you implied train late in the war, but had 5 years of practice prior to the B of B.

My point was that someone can have enormous ability and aptitude, but still show signs of being hopeless. It may be a mental block or self discouragement that is at fault. If the instructor suspects this, then maybe he might try to change his tack.

Hey the most inept student I ever met took over 55 hours to solo, terrified my buddy who was his PPL instructor but was within 2 years flying turboprops for a little US 121 regional. Not that flying regional turboprops qualifies anyone for a chuck yeager award.

Now someone who is lazy and/or shows poor judgement, should be shown the door.