Steep turns - visual technique
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Well, I think it's quite difficult to execute proper steep turns with instrument. The other day I had my steep turns lesson. And I was executing it properly when looking on the cowling but quite bad when looking on the instruments. well still it's depends on individuals which way they can do it better, but remeber if you are flying VFR then your attention should be 90% outside and 10% on insturments.
And please can someone tell me how do you pick up the reference point from dashboard I can not do it. I'm tall and always look at cowling and my insturctor always talks about the dashboard as reference point.
And please can someone tell me how do you pick up the reference point from dashboard I can not do it. I'm tall and always look at cowling and my insturctor always talks about the dashboard as reference point.
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Humility
Quote: "Chaps, chapesses and chap...others,
NO-ONE 'outclasses' anyone else in aviation. If they think they do, one day they'll probably find that they don't. And very probably, fatally."
Absolutely 100% agreed!
NO-ONE 'outclasses' anyone else in aviation. If they think they do, one day they'll probably find that they don't. And very probably, fatally."
Absolutely 100% agreed!
BEagle,
You have led us to believe the Almighty queries you?
Are you elevating Professors beyond that even?
You have led us to believe the Almighty queries you?
Are you elevating Professors beyond that even?
No, it's just that 1091 knot/sec seems an unusual value for 'g'. According to my sums, using standard values for the mass of the Earth, the mean radius of the Earth and the Univeral Gravitational Constant, 1091 knot/sec equates to 9.354 m/s/s which would be the value of 'g' at roughly 150 km above the Earth's surface....
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Just wondering when you do steep turns (at 45 and 60 degrees AoB), do you look at actual engine cowling in reference to the horizon? Or do you look at where the edge of the glareshield (dashboard) intersects the horizon?
Reason I ask is that I'm kinda tiny and can't quite see the engine cowling from where I'm seated in the C172 cockpit so I've been looking at the glareshield intersection with the horizon. Is this correct technique or should I be looking at the aircraft's attitude from the engine cowling?
Reason I ask is that I'm kinda tiny and can't quite see the engine cowling from where I'm seated in the C172 cockpit so I've been looking at the glareshield intersection with the horizon. Is this correct technique or should I be looking at the aircraft's attitude from the engine cowling?
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Experienced
Quote:
"Just to remind you of the original thread , nothing there about demonstrating your own importance or knowledge of aerodynamics not required on a PPL."
That is true, but the answers were given, now this thread has evolved into a more technical discussion among experts of varying degree with real world experiences. If we come to insights and answers then this thread is very useful to us all.
On another note, there are numerous working professionals here at PRRUNE with years of experience and wisdom to impart. Beagle and Pugilistic Animus are two in this case with extensive educations and practical experience, in this thread. I am a working professional who benefits from the wisdom of such people. It does get heated in PPRUNE sometimes, but the outcomes are usually productive. This is not your average blog where amteurs say: "I love plane, how do they fly." Well, they do, but not in the sense the layperson, enthusiast does...
"Just to remind you of the original thread , nothing there about demonstrating your own importance or knowledge of aerodynamics not required on a PPL."
That is true, but the answers were given, now this thread has evolved into a more technical discussion among experts of varying degree with real world experiences. If we come to insights and answers then this thread is very useful to us all.
On another note, there are numerous working professionals here at PRRUNE with years of experience and wisdom to impart. Beagle and Pugilistic Animus are two in this case with extensive educations and practical experience, in this thread. I am a working professional who benefits from the wisdom of such people. It does get heated in PPRUNE sometimes, but the outcomes are usually productive. This is not your average blog where amteurs say: "I love plane, how do they fly." Well, they do, but not in the sense the layperson, enthusiast does...
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Interesting thread - just to put my pennies worth in I learned in Florida along the coastline and it was often hazy but my instructor told me to stick with steep turns despite the haze as it would pay dividends in the long term. Now we are talking CAVOK but no distinct horizon (fact of life ).
Ref: Gleim's Fundamental's Of Instructing P114 (prepares you for FAA CFI)
INTEGRATED FLIGHT INSTRUCTION
Integrated flight instruction is flight instruction during which students are taught to perform flight manouvers both by outside visual reference and by reference to flight instruments. For this type of instruction to be fully effective , the use of instrument references should begin the first time each new manouver is introduced. No distinction in the pilots operation of the flight controls is permitted, regardless of wether outside references or instrument indications are used for the performance of the manouver. When this training technique is used , instruction in the control of the aircraft by outside visual references is integrated with instruction in the use of flight instrument indications for the same operations.
When teaching IMC students it is obvious to me which ones have been trained using this method.
Ref: Gleim's Fundamental's Of Instructing P114 (prepares you for FAA CFI)
INTEGRATED FLIGHT INSTRUCTION
Integrated flight instruction is flight instruction during which students are taught to perform flight manouvers both by outside visual reference and by reference to flight instruments. For this type of instruction to be fully effective , the use of instrument references should begin the first time each new manouver is introduced. No distinction in the pilots operation of the flight controls is permitted, regardless of wether outside references or instrument indications are used for the performance of the manouver. When this training technique is used , instruction in the control of the aircraft by outside visual references is integrated with instruction in the use of flight instrument indications for the same operations.
When teaching IMC students it is obvious to me which ones have been trained using this method.
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Dashboard, Nose, Front Horizon, Wingtips Side Horizon
Quote:
"Well, I think it's quite difficult to execute proper steep turns with instrument. The other day I had my steep turns lesson. And I was executing it properly when looking on the cowling but quite bad when looking on the instruments. well still it's depends on individuals which way they can do it better, but remeber if you are flying VFR then your attention should be 90% outside and 10% on insturments.
And please can someone tell me how do you pick up the reference point from dashboard I can not do it. I'm tall and always look at cowling and my insturctor always talks about the dashboard as reference point."
AvEnthusiast, it is a matter of preference, but if you have the nose on the front horizon you can use that, not just the dashboard. You may also use the wingtips on the side horizon.
Your instructor is not wrong, he prefers the dashboard.
Also, yes generally it is ALWAYS wise to look outside flying VFR. Even PA's initial posts indicate visual references. For myself, it depends on the student, sometimes it is good to have them scare themselves, so as long as the situation is safe and controlled by the instructor.
"Well, I think it's quite difficult to execute proper steep turns with instrument. The other day I had my steep turns lesson. And I was executing it properly when looking on the cowling but quite bad when looking on the instruments. well still it's depends on individuals which way they can do it better, but remeber if you are flying VFR then your attention should be 90% outside and 10% on insturments.
And please can someone tell me how do you pick up the reference point from dashboard I can not do it. I'm tall and always look at cowling and my insturctor always talks about the dashboard as reference point."
AvEnthusiast, it is a matter of preference, but if you have the nose on the front horizon you can use that, not just the dashboard. You may also use the wingtips on the side horizon.
Your instructor is not wrong, he prefers the dashboard. Also, yes generally it is ALWAYS wise to look outside flying VFR. Even PA's initial posts indicate visual references. For myself, it depends on the student, sometimes it is good to have them scare themselves, so as long as the situation is safe and controlled by the instructor.
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I would suggest that, for all BEagle's faults, he knows how to teach people to fly aircraft, both big and small. He was trained to do so by a pretty reputable organisation who pretty much wrote the book on how to instruct
Having read many of Beagles post over the years he does appear to fall into the trap of being a bit of a know it all. Great that he is ex RAF but even RAF instructors don't know it all. He definitely appears to have a fairly obvious prejudice towards American flight training. I remember a great moment when poor old Beags had to admit that he was wrong regarding carb heat on PA28's (not in the POH for landing checklist). This is a guy who prides himself on knowing everything. Also comes across as a bit of an authoritarian who doesn't think much about mere mortal FI'S.
Now I know this is bound to arouse passions but honestly it is merely an observation of posts and comments which are very evident in this thread. I don't know Beagle and have no axe to grind but I don't like know it all's who don't !
Having read many of Beagles post over the years he does appear to fall into the trap of being a bit of a know it all. Great that he is ex RAF but even RAF instructors don't know it all. He definitely appears to have a fairly obvious prejudice towards American flight training. I remember a great moment when poor old Beags had to admit that he was wrong regarding carb heat on PA28's (not in the POH for landing checklist). This is a guy who prides himself on knowing everything. Also comes across as a bit of an authoritarian who doesn't think much about mere mortal FI'S.
Now I know this is bound to arouse passions but honestly it is merely an observation of posts and comments which are very evident in this thread. I don't know Beagle and have no axe to grind but I don't like know it all's who don't !
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I would suggest that, for all BEagle's faults, he knows how to teach people to fly aircraft, both big and small. He was trained to do so by a pretty reputable organisation who pretty much wrote the book on how to instruct
Having read many of Beagles post over the years he does appear to fall into the trap of being a bit of a know it all. Great that he is ex RAF but even RAF instructors don't know it all. He definitely appears to have a fairly obvious prejudice towards American flight training. I remember a great moment when poor old Beags had to admit that he was wrong regarding carb heat on PA28's (not in the POH for landing checklist). This is a guy who prides himself on knowing everything. Also comes across as a bit of an authoritarian who doesn't think much about mere mortal FI'S.
Having read many of Beagles post over the years he does appear to fall into the trap of being a bit of a know it all. Great that he is ex RAF but even RAF instructors don't know it all. He definitely appears to have a fairly obvious prejudice towards American flight training. I remember a great moment when poor old Beags had to admit that he was wrong regarding carb heat on PA28's (not in the POH for landing checklist). This is a guy who prides himself on knowing everything. Also comes across as a bit of an authoritarian who doesn't think much about mere mortal FI'S.
Many people are good instructors but the best charachters are not dying to tell you of how much experience they have and on what, their excellence can be see from the way they teach. not from an over inflated ego. Humilty is also a valuable, desirable quality in aviation.
I have no prejudice against US training properly conducted.
But I have considerable prejudice towards whoever allegedly 'taught' a couple of Florida school graduates I flew with.... From different schools, incidentally.
I'm also prejudiced against those who revel in Schadenfreude.
Anyway, this thread is in danger of drifting into 'He said, she said' slanging match. I consider that the original question was answered with sufficient detail and that both JAA and FAA instructional techniques (assuming they are correctly applied) reinforce this. That's all that matters.
But I have considerable prejudice towards whoever allegedly 'taught' a couple of Florida school graduates I flew with.... From different schools, incidentally.
I'm also prejudiced against those who revel in Schadenfreude.
Anyway, this thread is in danger of drifting into 'He said, she said' slanging match. I consider that the original question was answered with sufficient detail and that both JAA and FAA instructional techniques (assuming they are correctly applied) reinforce this. That's all that matters.
Last edited by BEagle; 8th Feb 2009 at 11:52.
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My PA28 checklist (derived from the Aircraft Flight Manual) most certainly has carb heat as a pre-landing check. It's a bit of a pity that the aircraft manufacturer didn't notice he had installed a fuel injected engine. 
Anyway, I'm more interested in getting my head around instructional ethos and techniques.
Anyway, I'm more interested in getting my head around instructional ethos and techniques.
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To be or not to be
What on earth are Pull What and below radar attempting to achieve by the above comments defeats me but it sound like sour grapes resulting from an in-ability to conclusively argue their corner.
I doubt whether many even know who BEagle is nor do I understand how having a longtime discovery and studied knowledge of flying goes to make one a know-it-all.
When someone asks for help then, if i can, I will help, so far as I have the ability and knowledge but based on sound ground. I do not contribute unless I first have fully considered what I have say and have a good basis for what I say. When proven wrong or found ignorant I need to go back to the drawing table and I enjoy doing so. Knowledge brings with it one truth: the more that you know the more you realise what you do not!
I have been accused of patronising and now BEagle of being a know-it-all, during this thread alone. All such awful dreary resentment achieves is to drive enthusiastic, intelligent and knowlegable people away from debate. You don't have to agree but if not have good reason to argue otherwise.
Another option is to open the mind and learn, however hard it may be to come to terms with such a thought. The Ego dosn't get satisfied on pprune, know one knows who you are.
I just hope that those mis-directed into teaching 'steep turns' as if it was an instrument training detail now cease to do so.
I doubt whether many even know who BEagle is nor do I understand how having a longtime discovery and studied knowledge of flying goes to make one a know-it-all.
When someone asks for help then, if i can, I will help, so far as I have the ability and knowledge but based on sound ground. I do not contribute unless I first have fully considered what I have say and have a good basis for what I say. When proven wrong or found ignorant I need to go back to the drawing table and I enjoy doing so. Knowledge brings with it one truth: the more that you know the more you realise what you do not!
I have been accused of patronising and now BEagle of being a know-it-all, during this thread alone. All such awful dreary resentment achieves is to drive enthusiastic, intelligent and knowlegable people away from debate. You don't have to agree but if not have good reason to argue otherwise.
Another option is to open the mind and learn, however hard it may be to come to terms with such a thought. The Ego dosn't get satisfied on pprune, know one knows who you are.
I just hope that those mis-directed into teaching 'steep turns' as if it was an instrument training detail now cease to do so.
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Well....
Beagle has immense experience and knowledge, but he should have known better than to judge without first checking his references. The US and Britian are not the same. The hazy conditions do apply. PA is a professor of aeronautics and skilled pilot. Just see his posts with mad flight scientist, a certification engineer. Beagle has far my flight hours than most people in this thread and certainly far more than me! What I take issue with is the assumption he made that are incorrect and he does not seem able to admit to it and move on. That is dangerous in my humble estimation. Beagle is correct as far as the initial post in this thread, it has been asnwerd and I answered the second post question on the dashboard. We all need to learn more, gain experience and hopefully we can learn from each other!
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HOMEGUARD
I am hoping to achieve the following
1 - Demonstrate that the FAA promote a method of flight training called INTEGRATED flight training
2 - Demonstrate that Beagle's posts are quite at odds with that training philosophy
Nothing else - I don't wish to cause offence but do wish to point out this widespread and well proven method of flight training. I also hope that it may allow those with a very fixed view of flight training to better understand these alternative methods.
Logic and fact not opinion.
I am hoping to achieve the following
1 - Demonstrate that the FAA promote a method of flight training called INTEGRATED flight training
2 - Demonstrate that Beagle's posts are quite at odds with that training philosophy
Nothing else - I don't wish to cause offence but do wish to point out this widespread and well proven method of flight training. I also hope that it may allow those with a very fixed view of flight training to better understand these alternative methods.
Logic and fact not opinion.
Steep-Turns
What an aptly chosen title actually
And I was was just trying to help encourage the young aviator to become a"Strawberry Bitch" and like Sully to say MY AIRPLANE DAMN IT!!!
because as we also learned from Captain Sully---You can't go to the birds for the answers
RE: '1090' using a dimensional analysis the original equation was multiplied by some constant multiplier K that internally converted the dimensions---- in order allow the input to be expressed directly in KTAS and the out put in Deg/sec,...this is generally the most useful way to do so
'cuz I've learned that sometimes the answer is just 8.202
however my neglect in directly specifying the correct input unit [KTAS ] seems to have led to a confusing statement ---I guess ,...I seemed to have made a slight error
I'm still not finished with this topic my girlfriend has PA on his leash right now
and I wont have time to finish my post correctly
but wanted to snip away some lose ends
Papa Alpha
And I was was just trying to help encourage the young aviator to become a"Strawberry Bitch" and like Sully to say MY AIRPLANE DAMN IT!!!
because as we also learned from Captain Sully---You can't go to the birds for the answers
RE: '1090' using a dimensional analysis the original equation was multiplied by some constant multiplier K that internally converted the dimensions---- in order allow the input to be expressed directly in KTAS and the out put in Deg/sec,...this is generally the most useful way to do so
'cuz I've learned that sometimes the answer is just 8.202
however my neglect in directly specifying the correct input unit [KTAS ] seems to have led to a confusing statement ---I guess ,...I seemed to have made a slight error
I'm still not finished with this topic my girlfriend has PA on his leash right now
and I wont have time to finish my post correctlybut wanted to snip away some lose ends
Papa Alpha
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 10th Feb 2009 at 01:55. Reason: a few little things