Steep turns - visual technique
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What I was trying (badly?) to say is that whilst the PTS does not say the turn is to be flown on instruments - it doesn't say it mustn't be.
Provided they achieve the written word of 360° of turn within 100' they're done. Tick.
You're bringing the conversation back to the real world with your latter comments - which the test standard doesn't. I agree with you, I want to know "Why are we doing this, what are we trying to achieve?" - but the present FAA culture doesn't appear to go along with that.
Tick the boxes. Job done. Move on. Makes it all a farce really.
Same problem with stalll entries, deliberately putting the aircraft into nose high attitudes that the space shuttle would be proud, of in order to make the stall warning horn operate as quickly as possible - but the aircraft is in a never achieved attitude....it's just "means to an end".
Don't get me wrong - I completely agree with the whole step by step process as encouaged by JAA (and indeed encouraged by FAA until instructor rating issue - then ignored) - it's just a cultural difference.
Provided they achieve the written word of 360° of turn within 100' they're done. Tick.
You're bringing the conversation back to the real world with your latter comments - which the test standard doesn't. I agree with you, I want to know "Why are we doing this, what are we trying to achieve?" - but the present FAA culture doesn't appear to go along with that.
Tick the boxes. Job done. Move on. Makes it all a farce really.
Same problem with stalll entries, deliberately putting the aircraft into nose high attitudes that the space shuttle would be proud, of in order to make the stall warning horn operate as quickly as possible - but the aircraft is in a never achieved attitude....it's just "means to an end".
Don't get me wrong - I completely agree with the whole step by step process as encouaged by JAA (and indeed encouraged by FAA until instructor rating issue - then ignored) - it's just a cultural difference.
What I was trying (badly?) to say is that whilst the PTS does not say the turn is to be flown on instruments - it doesn't say it mustn't be.
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Agreed - so why does JAA include training on instrument flying?
Funny really that they go to all that length to teach the accuracy on instruments, yet freak out if they go anywhere near a cloud.
I've even heard (on the R/T with Miami) more than one pilot cancel IFR and descend because they refused to fly in cloud.
Funny really that they go to all that length to teach the accuracy on instruments, yet freak out if they go anywhere near a cloud.
I've even heard (on the R/T with Miami) more than one pilot cancel IFR and descend because they refused to fly in cloud.
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Steep Turns
Keygrip
You primarily teach skills to achieve safety. If safety wasn't an issue then a flying licence would not be required. People did at one time teach themselves. Instrument training (ab-initio) as far as it goes is solely for that purpose, safety!
Some things are considered obvious even when perhaps, some could argue, they are not. PFLs for instance are logically flown by day although not stated but would anybody of a sound mind teach them by night. We can't expect every little detail to be laid out in print otherwise, well ................. just imagine!
Should steep turns in excess of 45 degrees, taught solely on instruments, be required then it would be included as part of Ex 19 (JAR syllabus). It is of course: recovery from unusual attitudes by sole reference to instruments. The skills learnt visually by day in VMC will form a base for later advanced handling techniques by using sole reference to instruments. Building blocks - a technique widely applied in all forms of teaching.
You primarily teach skills to achieve safety. If safety wasn't an issue then a flying licence would not be required. People did at one time teach themselves. Instrument training (ab-initio) as far as it goes is solely for that purpose, safety!
Some things are considered obvious even when perhaps, some could argue, they are not. PFLs for instance are logically flown by day although not stated but would anybody of a sound mind teach them by night. We can't expect every little detail to be laid out in print otherwise, well ................. just imagine!
Should steep turns in excess of 45 degrees, taught solely on instruments, be required then it would be included as part of Ex 19 (JAR syllabus). It is of course: recovery from unusual attitudes by sole reference to instruments. The skills learnt visually by day in VMC will form a base for later advanced handling techniques by using sole reference to instruments. Building blocks - a technique widely applied in all forms of teaching.
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Who are you trying to impress? You're preaching to the choir.
I've already said I agree with it all from JAA training - and it's what I do (when I do it).
I'm getting a "Holier than thou" attitude from your posts, I hope I've misjudged them.
Tell you what, I'll guarantee not to post in this thread again, then you can ensure you have the last word - which is what you appear to be trying to do.
I've already said I agree with it all from JAA training - and it's what I do (when I do it).
I'm getting a "Holier than thou" attitude from your posts, I hope I've misjudged them.
Tell you what, I'll guarantee not to post in this thread again, then you can ensure you have the last word - which is what you appear to be trying to do.
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If you use cushions to get your eyes a couple of cm higher make sure they are nice and firm. You dont whant to sink down when the G kicks in. Even minimal G will push you back down.
If your a/c does not have any good horisontal line like top of the dash doard then you might consider putting a piece of tape on the windshield. Once a piece of bubble gum did the trick... Some adhisives on tapes may damage the winwshield, so be careful.
If your a/c does not have any good horisontal line like top of the dash doard then you might consider putting a piece of tape on the windshield. Once a piece of bubble gum did the trick... Some adhisives on tapes may damage the winwshield, so be careful.
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Beagle,
as already noted it does depend on both the regulations being followed and the individual student along with the conditions the training is under. For some flight students it is advisable to become comfortable using visuals immediately and either using instruments is either advantageous as you stated or perhaps not the best of ideas yet anyways. How Pugilistic Animus describes his training was just fine under the circumstances and it has not hindered his performance in any way nor has it discredited the advice he gives here on PRUNE. In the air, ideal conditions do not always exist.
Visuals are also easier than learning instruments anyways, and there are so many circumstances where visuals cannot be relied upon. The FAA regulations are just fine and have not failed US pilots yet.
Now if a student is nervous, ill experienced on instruments, needs visuals specifically due to lack of experience then by all means scheduling may need to be made for such training. Both are important to skilled and safe flight practices. What I mean by ill informed is you jumped the gun on PA's training as the "wrong way."
as already noted it does depend on both the regulations being followed and the individual student along with the conditions the training is under. For some flight students it is advisable to become comfortable using visuals immediately and either using instruments is either advantageous as you stated or perhaps not the best of ideas yet anyways. How Pugilistic Animus describes his training was just fine under the circumstances and it has not hindered his performance in any way nor has it discredited the advice he gives here on PRUNE. In the air, ideal conditions do not always exist.
Visuals are also easier than learning instruments anyways, and there are so many circumstances where visuals cannot be relied upon. The FAA regulations are just fine and have not failed US pilots yet.
Now if a student is nervous, ill experienced on instruments, needs visuals specifically due to lack of experience then by all means scheduling may need to be made for such training. Both are important to skilled and safe flight practices. What I mean by ill informed is you jumped the gun on PA's training as the "wrong way."
Nope, I emphatically disagree with the notion of people being taught to fly steep turns by reference to instruments alone.
When first learning to fly steep turns, students MUST fly in conditions where there is a well-defined horizon and by reference to which they learn the correct aircraft attitude.
I'm beginning to understand more and more now why people 'taught' at some PPL-farms in the US clearly do not understand the basics of attitude flying.
PA's training was clearly flawed and was probably driven more by the alleged school's financial programme than for the student's benefit.
When first learning to fly steep turns, students MUST fly in conditions where there is a well-defined horizon and by reference to which they learn the correct aircraft attitude.
I'm beginning to understand more and more now why people 'taught' at some PPL-farms in the US clearly do not understand the basics of attitude flying.
PA's training was clearly flawed and was probably driven more by the alleged school's financial programme than for the student's benefit.
-the moral don't be helpless use your instruments to precisely ascertain the back pressure, attitude, seat -of-pants- and correlate the instrument data with the horizon both primary horizon references --wingtip and ahead---then you'll find it easier---and very intuitive---
I believe we were in heated agreement
in my case my instructor was actually very conservative and such conditions would not have been tolerated with many other students except that on my first flight ever I did the preflight, start up, coms, TO and LDG,... and the next day slow flight power on/power off stalls/ steep turns and turns around a point ---gasp and another landing with 15 knot crosswinds gasps gasp...none of my early training sessions went over 1 and a 1/2 hours and I soloed at 10hr all around busy airspace---and futhermore frequently while wainting outside of class delta airspace I would engange in steep turns for fun so MY learning was not comprimised---my instructor adapted to ME so he was a great instructor--and I have much gratitude thaqt he allowed me such freedom--yes it was about money ...MY money and I paid to fly---- not have my behind wiped by a nanny any other way would have seen the CFI sacked--quick fast as I have no patience
If you have no patience, you shouldn't be flying.
As for thinking that if you've got the money you can dictate how you will be taught - if you tried that with any reputable training organisation they'd probably tell you to find somewhere else....'quick fast'.
I wouldn't care whether you're a millionaire or a pauper - you would be taught correctly and I, not you, would assess your progress!
As for thinking that if you've got the money you can dictate how you will be taught - if you tried that with any reputable training organisation they'd probably tell you to find somewhere else....'quick fast'.
I wouldn't care whether you're a millionaire or a pauper - you would be taught correctly and I, not you, would assess your progress!
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Wow Pugilistic Animus you must be the ace of the base! Flying since the summer and already you have instructional technique nailed. A good instructor is someone who teaches quickly!?
I would suggest that, for all BEagle's faults, he knows how to teach people to fly aircraft, both big and small. He was trained to do so by a pretty reputable organisation who pretty much wrote the book on how to instruct.
So, in order to avoid becoming a smoking hole in the ground, may I suggest you:
a. show a bit of humility
b. respect your betters
c. be open to advice- the day you stop learning is the day you crash
d. realise that actually, you know very little when it comes to flying
I would suggest that, for all BEagle's faults, he knows how to teach people to fly aircraft, both big and small. He was trained to do so by a pretty reputable organisation who pretty much wrote the book on how to instruct.
So, in order to avoid becoming a smoking hole in the ground, may I suggest you:
a. show a bit of humility
b. respect your betters
c. be open to advice- the day you stop learning is the day you crash
d. realise that actually, you know very little when it comes to flying
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Steep Turns
Keygrip
I found time today to look at the FAA, 'Airplane Handbook'. The handbook goes into detail describing how the pilot should use the outside references while undertaking a turn in excess of 45 degrees. It suggest only the briefest reference to the attitude indicator to confirm the angle of bank - which has already been argued.
If some instructors/examiners in the states are teaching otherwise, flying the manouvre solely or primarily on instruments - they are doing so without the blessing of the FAA!
I found time today to look at the FAA, 'Airplane Handbook'. The handbook goes into detail describing how the pilot should use the outside references while undertaking a turn in excess of 45 degrees. It suggest only the briefest reference to the attitude indicator to confirm the angle of bank - which has already been argued.
If some instructors/examiners in the states are teaching otherwise, flying the manouvre solely or primarily on instruments - they are doing so without the blessing of the FAA!
That is not what theFAA handbook says!!!!!
read my profile and realize I'm NOT an amateur
and No I don't know everything, but I'm a good stick and rudder ---now, how about some inverted spins now
read my profile and realize I'm NOT an amateur
and No I don't know everything, but I'm a good stick and rudder ---now, how about some inverted spins now
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As a relatively new instructor (JAA mould) I can absolutely see why instruments at an early stage may be viewed at the work of the devil. Too many students flying with some form of haphazard instrument scan, no understanding of attitude flying, staring at the ASI on final, flying by trim, adding back pressure as the horizon rises up the screen in a steep turn etc. Frankly I think that a lot are rushed through exercises 4, 6, 7 & 8 with the inevitable outcome that the don't know how to 'fly' an aircraft. Come to think of it, I have probably been fighting aircraft for over 20 years and only now do I understand the importance of the basics.
Oh, and for the half-dozen times I've instructed steep turns, I have never let my student use the instruments; a appropriately folded half mil gets shoved in front and, every so often, they are allowed a glance to confirm their 'picture'.
PS. BBB and LAI
Oh, and for the half-dozen times I've instructed steep turns, I have never let my student use the instruments; a appropriately folded half mil gets shoved in front and, every so often, they are allowed a glance to confirm their 'picture'.
PS. BBB and LAI
The biggest reason students do poorly in any maneuver is because the FI did not explain it properly in ground school---you learn to fly on the ground and practice in the air!!!!!
FFS planes are easy; aviation is tough
perhaps one should really read the Airplane flying Handbook
and Wolfgangs langwiesce's "Stick and Rudder"
BTW the biggest problem with many maneuvers in the air is not being proficient in straight and level flight
--but I'm a bad and incompeteant instructor/pilot/student/teacher-- so what the
do I know
Lester
FFS planes are easy; aviation is tough
perhaps one should really read the Airplane flying Handbook
and Wolfgangs langwiesce's "Stick and Rudder"
BTW the biggest problem with many maneuvers in the air is not being proficient in straight and level flight
--but I'm a bad and incompeteant instructor/pilot/student/teacher-- so what the do I knowLester
PS. I've seen a number of 'good stick and rudder' pilots do some very silly and terminal things.
If you've ever read anything I've written you would probably see that I believe that
" the mountains, oceans and storms ---don't know your name--they know no one's name, not you not ME,... nadie!"
avaiation is fair it kills everybody from new students to 20,000 hr pilots
YES!
" the mountains, oceans and storms ---don't know your name--they know no one's name, not you not ME,... nadie!"
avaiation is fair it kills everybody from new students to 20,000 hr pilots
Do you have to be so animated?
YES!
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In my relatively limited experience aviation isn't fair. It is very good at seeking out those with chinks in their psycological armour.
I wish you well.
PS. I soloed in 6hrs 55 minutes. That doesn't make me a sky god.
I wish you well.
PS. I soloed in 6hrs 55 minutes. That doesn't make me a sky god.
I soloed in 6hrs 55 minutes.
I'm not a sky god Re-read my post in this threa [reading is important]
read some of my other post ---then criticize me---I still have not spiraled into the ground--I don't feel I'm an ace or a sky god, or better than anyone else---but I had to defend myself against this ignorant tirade
Flying is fun --spent lots of time laughing and smiling---I just understood my plane and let it teach me