what is the world coming too.... spinning
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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A slightly patronising attitude being undertaken here re:the two chaps Jetscream met at Wycombe. We all started somewhere did we not? If they hadn't ever spun an aircraft then I doubt very much if they were instructors. So what's the point of this thread again? Oh... that's right... to show off how great we are that we are confident with spinning and how everyone else should be. Sounds like willy waving to me guys - sorry!
The age old debate re:spin training versus spin awareness is as old as the change itself and will continue for decades no doubt.... As an instructor I demonstrate the spin but rarely do I feel that without the spin the student will fail to grasp the dangers of slow flight and stalling. Most of them daren't fly 5kts above Vs for crying out loud!
VFE.
The age old debate re:spin training versus spin awareness is as old as the change itself and will continue for decades no doubt.... As an instructor I demonstrate the spin but rarely do I feel that without the spin the student will fail to grasp the dangers of slow flight and stalling. Most of them daren't fly 5kts above Vs for crying out loud!
VFE.
Sadly this is a case of I am old school and you new kids know sweet FA about flying.
Lets face it the new pilots can run a circle around me with the FMS etc.
The old miserable buggers can fly on steam, but know bugger all about CRM.
The middle aged pilots like me have a toe in both camps and can see the benefit of both.
Lets face it, why on earth would a BA cadet need to know about spinning?
Is an Airbus going to let him go near the edge of the envelope? err No
Will a 777 with spool down on both engines going to spin? or is the pilot going to fly on the stick shaker?
737, 5000ft HASELL check, 1700rpm, control column right back, full right rudder, opposite aileron, GET REAL.
I know of a CFI who hates spinning, infact hates aeros. I flew with him, never again.
These young people are training to do a job, not do aeros.
Since when has been in a full spin been the place to demonstrate the principles of flight? Idiotic comment.
You teach the principles of flight in the classroom (Where these students are learning).
There is enough to do with pattering the recovery and doing the task.
Incipient is fine for the Commercial students. if they want to spin, then it is a great activity to learn outside the commercial world.
PS Who does spins in IMC? What another clownish comment.
Lets face it the new pilots can run a circle around me with the FMS etc.
The old miserable buggers can fly on steam, but know bugger all about CRM.
The middle aged pilots like me have a toe in both camps and can see the benefit of both.
Lets face it, why on earth would a BA cadet need to know about spinning?
Is an Airbus going to let him go near the edge of the envelope? err No
Will a 777 with spool down on both engines going to spin? or is the pilot going to fly on the stick shaker?
737, 5000ft HASELL check, 1700rpm, control column right back, full right rudder, opposite aileron, GET REAL.
I know of a CFI who hates spinning, infact hates aeros. I flew with him, never again.
These young people are training to do a job, not do aeros.
Since when has been in a full spin been the place to demonstrate the principles of flight? Idiotic comment.
You teach the principles of flight in the classroom (Where these students are learning).
There is enough to do with pattering the recovery and doing the task.
Incipient is fine for the Commercial students. if they want to spin, then it is a great activity to learn outside the commercial world.
PS Who does spins in IMC? What another clownish comment.
Wotmesir?
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Doing the majority of my PPL on the old 152 but my instructor took me up in a PA-38 to show me the differences between an inherently stable airframe and a twitchy one in stall/spin.
Absolutely loved the wing drop and recovery in the Tommy and the spin recovery took a bit of thought along with positive actions.
It taught me a lot. Foremost was the fact that not every trainer will recover from a stall by shouting at it.
Cost me about another 250 but more than worth it.
Absolutely loved the wing drop and recovery in the Tommy and the spin recovery took a bit of thought along with positive actions.
It taught me a lot. Foremost was the fact that not every trainer will recover from a stall by shouting at it.
Cost me about another 250 but more than worth it.
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I certainly think that spinning should become part of the syllabus because if and when you have passed your PPL,
Wouldnt you like to know how to get out of one if and when it ever happens?? I certainly would!
I Mean say what If your on a cross country flight and you suddenly go into a spin for a certain reason then Not knowing how to get out of it puts you in er poop street!!!! CRASH
!!
I just think the manouvere should be known should the terryfying occasion arise!
Wouldnt you like to know how to get out of one if and when it ever happens?? I certainly would!
I Mean say what If your on a cross country flight and you suddenly go into a spin for a certain reason then Not knowing how to get out of it puts you in er poop street!!!! CRASH
!!I just think the manouvere should be known should the terryfying occasion arise!
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I am a low hrs ppl but asked for spin training after the first year of obtaining my licence.
We did it in a Citabria,the action was explained to me in detail by our very experienced CFI but I was not at all prepared for the quite violent entry into the spin,if that happened practising stalls etc at altitude, at least I would now have some idea of what was happenening and how to recover.
Also it does make one very aware of airspeed,bank angle to keep away from the unintentional stall,turn,spin situation at low level approach.
Lister
We did it in a Citabria,the action was explained to me in detail by our very experienced CFI but I was not at all prepared for the quite violent entry into the spin,if that happened practising stalls etc at altitude, at least I would now have some idea of what was happenening and how to recover.
Also it does make one very aware of airspeed,bank angle to keep away from the unintentional stall,turn,spin situation at low level approach.
Lister
ListerNoble: well done for doing some spin training but if the entry was violent it sounds like it wasn't terribly well demo'd.
Some FIs get a few knots above the stall, yank the stick back and apply rudder - the result is a violent pitch-up, roll inverted and after a few gyrations it may or may not end-up in a full spin. This is totally unrealistic because you're unlikely to do this accidentally.
Aerobatic FIs will usually show you what happens if you mishandle a stall in an over-ruddered turn, or in a sideslip. This is much more realistic and in these cases the aircraft will usually slide straight into a spin (or maybe a spiral in some types); you may go inverted but it's not usually violent.
The important bit is the demo during the lead-up that if you take the power off and centralise the controls during the entry, the aircraft will be back in control and all you have to do is level the wings and then sort out the pitch attitude.
I used to be strongly in the "spinning should be back in the PPL syllabus" lobby, but the syllabus is too long as it is. I now believe that the basic PPL syllabus should be relatively simple, but that pilots should be encouraged to do post-PPL advanced training (including spinning) with specialists
, in suitable aircraft. Ideally this would be recognised by reduced premiums or hire rates, but if it might save your life it's fairly good value.
HFD
Some FIs get a few knots above the stall, yank the stick back and apply rudder - the result is a violent pitch-up, roll inverted and after a few gyrations it may or may not end-up in a full spin. This is totally unrealistic because you're unlikely to do this accidentally.
Aerobatic FIs will usually show you what happens if you mishandle a stall in an over-ruddered turn, or in a sideslip. This is much more realistic and in these cases the aircraft will usually slide straight into a spin (or maybe a spiral in some types); you may go inverted but it's not usually violent.
The important bit is the demo during the lead-up that if you take the power off and centralise the controls during the entry, the aircraft will be back in control and all you have to do is level the wings and then sort out the pitch attitude.
I used to be strongly in the "spinning should be back in the PPL syllabus" lobby, but the syllabus is too long as it is. I now believe that the basic PPL syllabus should be relatively simple, but that pilots should be encouraged to do post-PPL advanced training (including spinning) with specialists
, in suitable aircraft. Ideally this would be recognised by reduced premiums or hire rates, but if it might save your life it's fairly good value.HFD
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Gliding instructors teach spinning all the time, cause we fly closer to the stall than anyone else and the rudder is very powerful. I used to get the student to turn normally easing back on the stick and as it slowed feed in rudder and see what happens. This had more likely teaching effect ,than yanking the glider into a high nose up stall and scaring the students. The K-13 was spun regularly from 1,000 feet after a good brief and Puchacz not below 1,500 feet. I would not let a student solo unless he recognised the stall/spin onset and could recover correctly.
Very important for every type of aircraft pilot to be able to recover from a spin. Read one of the last chapters in "Handling The Big Jets".
Very important for every type of aircraft pilot to be able to recover from a spin. Read one of the last chapters in "Handling The Big Jets".
As all qualified pilots know, the spin has two stages. The incipient and the full. The key to the exercise is recovery with minimum height loss and this should be covered in the stalling/slow flight exercises in the JAR PPL syllabus. In my experience, it is poorly executed because often the instructors don't have much of an understanding of what they are trying to impart to their students.
The principles of recovery with minimum height loss are quite simple. If you expereince buffet and undemanded roll, you are in the incipient stage of the spin. Centralising the controls and closing the throttle will recover the incipient spin in nearly all cases. If you can successfully catch the spin at this stage, then you will have recovered with minimum height loss.
I can predict the next question. "But what if you don't catch the spin at the incipint stage and it developes into a full spin?". Most GA training types are spin resistant. They have to be to be certified and to enter the full spin, the pilot will have to be applying full pro spin controls - and maintaining them there! If this occurs inadvertantly, I would sugest that there is something fundamentally wrong with the instruction that pilot has received.
The principles of recovery with minimum height loss are quite simple. If you expereince buffet and undemanded roll, you are in the incipient stage of the spin. Centralising the controls and closing the throttle will recover the incipient spin in nearly all cases. If you can successfully catch the spin at this stage, then you will have recovered with minimum height loss.
I can predict the next question. "But what if you don't catch the spin at the incipint stage and it developes into a full spin?". Most GA training types are spin resistant. They have to be to be certified and to enter the full spin, the pilot will have to be applying full pro spin controls - and maintaining them there! If this occurs inadvertantly, I would sugest that there is something fundamentally wrong with the instruction that pilot has received.
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Aren't there two questions here?
1. What is the absolute minimum that all students should be exposed to,
and
2. what would it be a good idea to show and teach the students during their training?
The answer to the first Q is what should be in the (mandatory) syllabus, and the answer to the second Q is what the instructor can choose to show the student if he/she is so inclined and feels the student would benefit from it.
I got to spin the C172 during my PPL training and am really grateful for that; apart from it all being great fun it makes me more confident when practicing stalls on my own, knowing if I screw it all up and end up in a spin I can recover from it. That the C172 is more reluctant to spin than even the even the most cautious instructor is no drawback IMHO; if you're going to fly a non-aerobatic aircraft, shouldn't you learn recovery in such an aircraft? And you can get the C172 to spin with a little effort; been there done that... 
But if neither the student nor the instructor is happy about it, maybe it's better not to do it...
1. What is the absolute minimum that all students should be exposed to,
and
2. what would it be a good idea to show and teach the students during their training?
The answer to the first Q is what should be in the (mandatory) syllabus, and the answer to the second Q is what the instructor can choose to show the student if he/she is so inclined and feels the student would benefit from it.
I got to spin the C172 during my PPL training and am really grateful for that; apart from it all being great fun
it makes me more confident when practicing stalls on my own, knowing if I screw it all up and end up in a spin I can recover from it. That the C172 is more reluctant to spin than even the even the most cautious instructor is no drawback IMHO; if you're going to fly a non-aerobatic aircraft, shouldn't you learn recovery in such an aircraft? And you can get the C172 to spin with a little effort; been there done that... But if neither the student nor the instructor is happy about it, maybe it's better not to do it...
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Aren't there two questions here?
Here's another...
A risk assessment is carried out to determine the value of any given training exercise post-licence issue against the hazard posed by carrying out the training.
This was done with spin training 25 years ago, due to the deaths each year to students and instructors. The assessment that said that the post-issue value of spin training is less than the hazard of carrying out the training has proven to be quite correct. There are VERY FEW deaths in SEPs caused by accidental spins. I deliberately exclude gliders and microlights from this - we're talking about PPL SEP training here.
What we DO need to concentrate on is better weight & balance and meterological training. It seems to me that controlled flight into terrain (usually in bad weather) and accidents caused by badly loaded a/c are the major causes of serious injury/death accidents today. The majority of UK GA accidents are caused, according to the CAA, by poor decision making. Thus, the accident happens even before the aircraft leaves the ground!
TheOddOne
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I Mean say what If your on a cross country flight and you suddenly go into a spin for a certain reason then Not knowing how to get out of it puts you in er poop street!!!! CRASH !!
In this case incipient recovery is really worth knowing. Full spin recovery training has the advantage of giving more knowledge and confidence about how to recover from this and I would thoroughly recommend it, but in an aircraft that does it properly and with an instructor who is confident in teaching it - the worst is an aircraft (i.e. C152), that does not spin properly, with an instructor who is not really happy with teaching it!
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The Odd One , I agree with your points . I wish more power pilots would try gliding as it teachs adverse yaw ,good stick/rudder co-ordination plus confidence building at using judgement skills landing(you can't go around again). Also when the fan stops,gliding experience of actual field landings will sharpen one's skills.
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If my memory serves me correctly, spinning was removed from the PPL syllabus in the early eighties for the primary reason that it was putting off many students. Emphasis instead was placed (correctly in my view) on spin awareness and avoidances. Rightly however, there is no prohibition placed on the demonstration of spinning and teaching of spin recovery during PPL training, and those who progress to more "spirited" types such as the Tiger Moth, Stampe or Pitts for example, will almost certainly have to demonstrate spin recovery proficiency before any first solos.
As for the differences between "steam" and "glass," I am not at all aware of any different scanning technique that should be used for one or the other. Sure, glass provides far more information, but the basics of speed, pitch, roll, yaw, altitude and vertical speed remain the same regardless of whether the dials are round or displayed on TV screens - and should be interpreted in line with classic age old "scan" that has been taught since the thirties or forties.
T-21 - I agree entirely. A few glider rides would benefit all pilots. I'm fortunate to have benefited from several thousands of flights instructing in your namesake, and as a result have feet that know exactly what to do - whether in piston, turbine or jet types! Oh what happy memories - and in this weather - how I miss that open cockpit!
Sooty
As for the differences between "steam" and "glass," I am not at all aware of any different scanning technique that should be used for one or the other. Sure, glass provides far more information, but the basics of speed, pitch, roll, yaw, altitude and vertical speed remain the same regardless of whether the dials are round or displayed on TV screens - and should be interpreted in line with classic age old "scan" that has been taught since the thirties or forties.
T-21 - I agree entirely. A few glider rides would benefit all pilots. I'm fortunate to have benefited from several thousands of flights instructing in your namesake, and as a result have feet that know exactly what to do - whether in piston, turbine or jet types! Oh what happy memories - and in this weather - how I miss that open cockpit!
Sooty
CG Critical
Good thread even if it is a bit of an old chestnut.
I also fly gliders and it is a very cheap way of improving basic handling skills and coordination; particularly in showing the inter-relationship between control effects. Even putting on the parachute serves to concentrate the mind on the exercises to be done.
One of the most critical things to stress is the reasons why you might get into a spin; it is not always just sloppy handling or inattention. The student needs to know how critical the loading and CG of the aircraft are in causing the full spin and especially being able to recover from it. Ironically, 2 seat aerobatic aircraft often don't have many options in this regard so it could well be that some pax aircraft are more vulnerable in this CG scenario. The anti-spin criteria for certification are for correctly loaded aircraft.
Maybe it would be easier if it was referred to (as I believe the RAF do) as 'departure from controlled flight' as I think the spin is included.
Flug
I also fly gliders and it is a very cheap way of improving basic handling skills and coordination; particularly in showing the inter-relationship between control effects. Even putting on the parachute serves to concentrate the mind on the exercises to be done.
One of the most critical things to stress is the reasons why you might get into a spin; it is not always just sloppy handling or inattention. The student needs to know how critical the loading and CG of the aircraft are in causing the full spin and especially being able to recover from it. Ironically, 2 seat aerobatic aircraft often don't have many options in this regard so it could well be that some pax aircraft are more vulnerable in this CG scenario. The anti-spin criteria for certification are for correctly loaded aircraft.
Maybe it would be easier if it was referred to (as I believe the RAF do) as 'departure from controlled flight' as I think the spin is included.
Flug
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Agree with all the gliding related benefits.
There are two more issues that come to my mind regarding the debate on whether to teach spinning.
1. Teaching anything to absolute minima IMO is the wrong attitude. Learning to fly correctly and safely in addition to being taught the mechanics is also learning airmanship. Inadvertant spins happen. All aspects related to this, avoidance and recovery should be taught and practiced at the PPL level.
2. Spinning is fun so why not teach it (and basic aeros too come to think of it).
If you want straight and level then stick to driving cars.
There are two more issues that come to my mind regarding the debate on whether to teach spinning.
1. Teaching anything to absolute minima IMO is the wrong attitude. Learning to fly correctly and safely in addition to being taught the mechanics is also learning airmanship. Inadvertant spins happen. All aspects related to this, avoidance and recovery should be taught and practiced at the PPL level.
2. Spinning is fun so why not teach it (and basic aeros too come to think of it).
If you want straight and level then stick to driving cars.
