Screening Out The Nutters
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Screening Out The Nutters
Hi folks,
A recent series of events has prompted me into thinking whether as FIs we should be screening out the nutters and making efforts to prevent them from obtaining a licence.
I know our employers have commercial pressures on them to get as many students through the door and I also know that we are not psychologists and am not suggesting such but do we not have a responsibility to at least try identify those who may be a danger to themselves and others?
I'm not talking about those who are a bit slower than others and need more instruction but about those whose arrogance knows no boundaries; those who have no respect for anybody else; those who believe the rules are there for the guidance of fools and the obeyance of idiots; those whose mistaken belief in their own capabilities and who try to run as fast as possible before they've even learned to walk is going to end up in tragedy. I'm talking of those who, however much you tell them, whether it be a legality or the benefit of experience, ALWAYS know better and will always do their own thing, regardless of the consequences.
Or is it nothing to do with us and we simply turn up, teach and move on to the next one when all is done?
Head over parapet, standing by for incoming....who's got me body armour?
A recent series of events has prompted me into thinking whether as FIs we should be screening out the nutters and making efforts to prevent them from obtaining a licence.
I know our employers have commercial pressures on them to get as many students through the door and I also know that we are not psychologists and am not suggesting such but do we not have a responsibility to at least try identify those who may be a danger to themselves and others?
I'm not talking about those who are a bit slower than others and need more instruction but about those whose arrogance knows no boundaries; those who have no respect for anybody else; those who believe the rules are there for the guidance of fools and the obeyance of idiots; those whose mistaken belief in their own capabilities and who try to run as fast as possible before they've even learned to walk is going to end up in tragedy. I'm talking of those who, however much you tell them, whether it be a legality or the benefit of experience, ALWAYS know better and will always do their own thing, regardless of the consequences.
Or is it nothing to do with us and we simply turn up, teach and move on to the next one when all is done?
Head over parapet, standing by for incoming....who's got me body armour?
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You make a fair point.
Would you include those whose judgement might be questionable. For example people who throw up a good job to folllow a dream, incurring massive debts in the process; where their potential salary is a fraction of their previous one; working in an abusive environment for mean employers pushing them to the limit, and where one mistake or illness could end that dream overnight and leave them bankrupt.
Do need to screen out these nutters as well?
Would you include those whose judgement might be questionable. For example people who throw up a good job to folllow a dream, incurring massive debts in the process; where their potential salary is a fraction of their previous one; working in an abusive environment for mean employers pushing them to the limit, and where one mistake or illness could end that dream overnight and leave them bankrupt.
Do need to screen out these nutters as well?
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A recent series of events has prompted me into thinking whether as FIs we should be screening out the nutters and making efforts to prevent them from obtaining a licence.
That's why it contains so much crap.
I'm talking of those who, however much you tell them, whether it be a legality or the benefit of experience, ALWAYS know better and will always do their own thing, regardless of the consequences.
I think you have to quite blunt with these characters and tell them in no uncertain terms that if they are not prepared to tow the line then all further flyng training will cease! Flying should be an enjoyable experience but I feel there is no room for those who have such a cavalier attitude especially when they are operating under your supervision.
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I like it IO540, what f**** me off about the IR is that, even with x00 of IF time, an Applied Instrument tick on the FI(A) and x successful IMC students under my belt I would still have to do the full 50 hours for the MEIR, or even more ridiculous 45 hours for the SEIR. However, I digress..........soap box back under sofa!!
I agree with fireflybob as well regarding putting students in their place when they start displaying cavalier attitudes. Nip it in the bud early. And I think you've also identified the type of person who more often than not would tend to fall into this category.
Ooh, look, a group of pigeons. 1 x cat. Fling............
So, what about those low hours PPL holders who have slipped through the net and we know they are out there? What do we do about them....or is it now someone else's problem?
I agree with fireflybob as well regarding putting students in their place when they start displaying cavalier attitudes. Nip it in the bud early. And I think you've also identified the type of person who more often than not would tend to fall into this category.
Ooh, look, a group of pigeons. 1 x cat. Fling............
So, what about those low hours PPL holders who have slipped through the net and we know they are out there? What do we do about them....or is it now someone else's problem?
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Traditionally, the method used to screen out the nutters was called the Instrument Rating.
That's why it contains so much crap.
That's why it contains so much crap.
When I was doing my FI rating, there was a guy at the school who was doing his PPL and his instructor hated flying with him.
He was arrogant, pain in the @r5e and the instructor felt very unsafe flying with him. He did some really stupid things like runway incursions (more than once!) overtaking people on taxiways too fast..the list continues.
The most alarming thing he did;
the instructor was sending him off solo and the cloud base was too low so the instructor said they would have to wait a few hours til the cloud lifted. So, what did the student do?He went out and took the aircraft!
Now, what I found most annoying about this-the school took a very laidback attitude to all of this. I would have grounded him for a certain length of time and made him re-do his air law exam or something before he was allowed back in the school's aircraft. But no, they did nothing!
I was quite alarmed at that more than his actions.
To be honest, as Instructors, I think the best thing you can do is try and talk to the person involved. Sometimes a little reality check/bollicking will do the trick, but if you have a live-one on your hands, communicate it to the school, let them deal with it and if they do nothing-refuse to fly with him/her.
I think flying attracts some strange individuals who think they are invincible and unfortunately, I only think there is so much you can do to as an Instructor.
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Unfortunately, the current system not only permits the nutters to continue but in certain areas encourages them.
The PPL course provides the opportuntiy to end their attempt at gaining a licence or at least rearrange their attitudes.
However, as has been pointed out, most businesses are unwilling to loose the income that a student (even a bad one) provides.
Having gained their PPL, they have to source an aircraft. Here the various groups and clubs have the opportunity to stop their carzy operation but few do. If those groups / clubs do then they can still purchase their own aircraft.
Which leads on to the airfield operators who turn many a blind eye to "characters" that fall below the normal basic safe standard.
Then we have the instructors who unless they are blind, often see these very characters in operation and when asked for a signature to revalidate a rating,
However the simple fact is that these nutters are not nutters at all. They are very clever people who manage to operate dangerously, illegally and without a care in the world because of the thousands of aviators who are unwilling to tell someone in authority what is happening.
Very often when an accident happens we hear that..........it was an accident waiting to happen / it was only a matter of time before they killed themselves etc etc
Best shown by the poster on a different thred talking about seeing a pilot arrive "VFR" in IMC stating how appaled they were at such a dangerous act. However, when asked if they reported the pilot the response was that they would not find such an act acceptable.
So as long as examminers and instructors turn a blind eye to the nutters, then they are going to encourage others to follow suit.........i.e. it is a cancer............but do you recomend a nutterectomy or less invasive treatment of the problem?
Regards,
DFC
The PPL course provides the opportuntiy to end their attempt at gaining a licence or at least rearrange their attitudes.
However, as has been pointed out, most businesses are unwilling to loose the income that a student (even a bad one) provides.
Having gained their PPL, they have to source an aircraft. Here the various groups and clubs have the opportunity to stop their carzy operation but few do. If those groups / clubs do then they can still purchase their own aircraft.
Which leads on to the airfield operators who turn many a blind eye to "characters" that fall below the normal basic safe standard.
Then we have the instructors who unless they are blind, often see these very characters in operation and when asked for a signature to revalidate a rating,
However the simple fact is that these nutters are not nutters at all. They are very clever people who manage to operate dangerously, illegally and without a care in the world because of the thousands of aviators who are unwilling to tell someone in authority what is happening.
Very often when an accident happens we hear that..........it was an accident waiting to happen / it was only a matter of time before they killed themselves etc etc
Best shown by the poster on a different thred talking about seeing a pilot arrive "VFR" in IMC stating how appaled they were at such a dangerous act. However, when asked if they reported the pilot the response was that they would not find such an act acceptable.
So as long as examminers and instructors turn a blind eye to the nutters, then they are going to encourage others to follow suit.........i.e. it is a cancer............but do you recomend a nutterectomy or less invasive treatment of the problem?
Regards,
DFC
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timzsta- except there are no policemen for this role.
So it leaves the problem, refuse to train them, whereupon they go elsewhere and possibly encounter a less experienced instructor who is caught out by one event too many.
Or do you train them to the best of your ability, try and teach them the correct way to do things and how to stay out of trouble (if they accept your advice) and then hope something sinks in and they don't kill anybody else if and when it happens.
I've tried both- one's still flying (I generally avoided flying with him) and has not hurt himself or anyone else (yet) but continues to gain the attention of the authorities and scares others regularily.
Another tried to self teach himself strip skills- only lost the nose spat. I finished his training but realised after the fact that if he saw something being done he would consider himself to have been "taught" and would try it.
So it leaves the problem, refuse to train them, whereupon they go elsewhere and possibly encounter a less experienced instructor who is caught out by one event too many.
Or do you train them to the best of your ability, try and teach them the correct way to do things and how to stay out of trouble (if they accept your advice) and then hope something sinks in and they don't kill anybody else if and when it happens.
I've tried both- one's still flying (I generally avoided flying with him) and has not hurt himself or anyone else (yet) but continues to gain the attention of the authorities and scares others regularily.
Another tried to self teach himself strip skills- only lost the nose spat. I finished his training but realised after the fact that if he saw something being done he would consider himself to have been "taught" and would try it.
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The cookie crumbles both ways! Some nutters need to be taken out of instructing!! Ive flown with one in particular who could well be classed as mental!!
There is a considerable grey area though.
Many years ago I went to a windsurfing school. The instructor (very good BTW) said that he used to get big groups of kids sent there from a nearby army base. He liked them very much because they were used to being ordered about and did exactly as they were told; no arguing and no imagination.
I think a lot of flying instructors would like the same.
A lot of the punters are a bit thick so the instructor gets his wish. These customer types drop out pretty fast anyway...
But there is a percentage of business/professional types coming in too. These are in their 40s/50s and after decades of managing other people they are not stupid, and can spot a less than competent instructor as quickly as they can spot a less than competent accountant or solicitor, or as quickly as a horse will spot a rider who is afraid of riding. These punters need a different kind of instructor; a confident and competent type which is rare on the ATPL hour builder circuit.
Unfortunately these punters do cause trouble. They are in it for the long haul and they run before they can walk. They keep looking at what aeroplane to buy and keep asking all kinds of questions like how does one fly to Italy - of an instructor who has never been past the crease in his chart. Some of them, the younger ones especially, can be rather arrogant.
Unfortunately these are the punters who have the funding for the long haul.
As regards the nutter who took the plane without authority, why not report him to the police?
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It's not easy. But I do think that teaching someone to fly involves much more than showing them how to manipulate the controls and draw a line on their chart. Attitudes are far more important.
So if someone has an inappropriate attitude, you tell them so. If you think that the way they're going, they'll end up killing themsleves, you tell them that, and you tell them exactly why. Some people will listen, and you have to assume that everyone is willing to learn, even if it takes a sledgehammer to teach them, until proved otherwise.
If someone breaks the law, eg by stealing an aircraft (and taking one when the instructor said not to is stealing) you teach in a very direct way - you go to the police!
And if, despite everything, you still feel this person shouldn't be flying, and is a danger to themselves and others and always will be, you tell them so, and tell others if necessary. That also is teaching/instructing. You can't get out of that kind of responsibility, any more than you can decide not to teach them anything else which is unpleasant.
If, however, the flying school owner, CFI, or whover, takes no notice, or wants the student's money regardless, there's nothing you can do, unless the situation appears to warrant taking things further, but like...where?
So if someone has an inappropriate attitude, you tell them so. If you think that the way they're going, they'll end up killing themsleves, you tell them that, and you tell them exactly why. Some people will listen, and you have to assume that everyone is willing to learn, even if it takes a sledgehammer to teach them, until proved otherwise.
If someone breaks the law, eg by stealing an aircraft (and taking one when the instructor said not to is stealing) you teach in a very direct way - you go to the police!
And if, despite everything, you still feel this person shouldn't be flying, and is a danger to themselves and others and always will be, you tell them so, and tell others if necessary. That also is teaching/instructing. You can't get out of that kind of responsibility, any more than you can decide not to teach them anything else which is unpleasant.
If, however, the flying school owner, CFI, or whover, takes no notice, or wants the student's money regardless, there's nothing you can do, unless the situation appears to warrant taking things further, but like...where?
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We are Instructors, not policeman.
However, there are various channels through which you can (and in some cases must) report illegal and dangerous flying.
I have no doubt that every instructor would report the yob breaking into a car in the club car park so why not apply the same to the yob breaking the law in other ways.
One may find that the first case is simply someone locked out of their own car and in the latter case it may have been perfectly legal but it is the turning one's back on such situations that is the problem.
It is true that instructors and examminers can be just as bad - how many PPL students present themselves at Gatwick for attempt number 4 - not as many as take more than 3 attempts to gain a pass.
Whirly,
There is the MOR scheme and CHIRP to name two methods and then there is also simply a letter to the CAA.
Regards,
DFC
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The CAA isn't interested.
The one and only time I have contacted them about an issue they wern't interested. You had to turn into a special policeman, they expect you to provide court level quality of evidence. Pictures, photo copys of techlogs, other witnesses names and addresses.
If its a medical issue they tell you to talk to the medical section, who then tell you to talk to licensing who tell you to talk to medical etc etc.
With certain individuals you haven't got a chance. They way the whole thing is setup they can bypass any sort of control put in place. If they own thier own plane they are pretty much uncontrollable. Even if they don't, there are lots of schools out there with some moral standing, there are those close to red line or over it who only care about cash flow.
If PPL examiners had the power to cancel class ratings on seeing a substandard level of piloting ability; there could be some hope but they can't.
There have been PPL's who have clocked up double figures in MOR's in one day who are still flying without any sanction.
The one and only time I have contacted them about an issue they wern't interested. You had to turn into a special policeman, they expect you to provide court level quality of evidence. Pictures, photo copys of techlogs, other witnesses names and addresses.
If its a medical issue they tell you to talk to the medical section, who then tell you to talk to licensing who tell you to talk to medical etc etc.
With certain individuals you haven't got a chance. They way the whole thing is setup they can bypass any sort of control put in place. If they own thier own plane they are pretty much uncontrollable. Even if they don't, there are lots of schools out there with some moral standing, there are those close to red line or over it who only care about cash flow.
If PPL examiners had the power to cancel class ratings on seeing a substandard level of piloting ability; there could be some hope but they can't.
There have been PPL's who have clocked up double figures in MOR's in one day who are still flying without any sanction.
There are a few options available that I can think of off the top of my head.
1. Dont pass them for a flight review, or recommend them for a licence test. Attitude is part of airmanship, which as just as big a part of aviation as landing.
2. Make clear notes as to the cause of your concern in the students records. As has been said, speak with the CFI, CP, school manager and senior staff. If, as has been said, he flogs a plane without proper authorisation, FFS do not sign the form after the fact to "tidy things up"
3. If he displays too much attitude in the briefing, cancel the flight. If you're airborne, cancel the lesson and turn back to land. I'm obviously not talking about minor things, but if you feel its serious enough...
4. The most serious one. Refuse to fly with him under any circumstances. Explain why in a calm manner to both him and the CFI. Do not get emotional about it, simply state the facts, and that you feel distinctly unsafe, or personality clash, or whatever reason it is.
5. The less "moral" one: Deliberately make his training unpleasant (and no I haven't ever done this, nor do I advocate it). He will take his business elsewhere, whether the school likes it or not. REPEAT: I DO NOT ADVOCATE DOING THIS!!!
Most of the ones I've given are for fairly serious guys, who you feel are a risk to themselves and/or others. Otherwise, turn up and teach, but DO NOT MOVE ON TO THE NEXT LESSON until he reaches the required standard, both in handling AND airmanship.
1. Dont pass them for a flight review, or recommend them for a licence test. Attitude is part of airmanship, which as just as big a part of aviation as landing.
2. Make clear notes as to the cause of your concern in the students records. As has been said, speak with the CFI, CP, school manager and senior staff. If, as has been said, he flogs a plane without proper authorisation, FFS do not sign the form after the fact to "tidy things up"
3. If he displays too much attitude in the briefing, cancel the flight. If you're airborne, cancel the lesson and turn back to land. I'm obviously not talking about minor things, but if you feel its serious enough...
4. The most serious one. Refuse to fly with him under any circumstances. Explain why in a calm manner to both him and the CFI. Do not get emotional about it, simply state the facts, and that you feel distinctly unsafe, or personality clash, or whatever reason it is.
5. The less "moral" one: Deliberately make his training unpleasant (and no I haven't ever done this, nor do I advocate it). He will take his business elsewhere, whether the school likes it or not. REPEAT: I DO NOT ADVOCATE DOING THIS!!!
Most of the ones I've given are for fairly serious guys, who you feel are a risk to themselves and/or others. Otherwise, turn up and teach, but DO NOT MOVE ON TO THE NEXT LESSON until he reaches the required standard, both in handling AND airmanship.
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The blessed
What a terrible time some of you have had. I really don't envy some of you at all. I just thank god that i'm healthy and still sane.
As I enter my sixties the possibility of dementia is always just round the corner, I suppose, but I hope that paranoia will stay at bay. Unlike many of you I still remain reasonably sane - but then how will I know that i've gone mad. When i've gone round the bend will it be obvious to me and will I care. Has it happened ALREADY?
Meanwhile God bless all that come before me to learn to fly. I love my flying and it is my life. I hope that the time never comes when I perceive anyone who comes to me to learn to fly as 'a nutter'. Will the day ever come that i'm good enough to judge them! Each day I look back with dread and embarrassment of what I have done and the right to act as a judge seems further away.
I see many doing lots of things that I do not like or approve of but thats life. Better that I keep a concentrated good eye on myself otherwise who knows what I might do, as I lose my sanity!
As I enter my sixties the possibility of dementia is always just round the corner, I suppose, but I hope that paranoia will stay at bay. Unlike many of you I still remain reasonably sane - but then how will I know that i've gone mad. When i've gone round the bend will it be obvious to me and will I care. Has it happened ALREADY?
Meanwhile God bless all that come before me to learn to fly. I love my flying and it is my life. I hope that the time never comes when I perceive anyone who comes to me to learn to fly as 'a nutter'. Will the day ever come that i'm good enough to judge them! Each day I look back with dread and embarrassment of what I have done and the right to act as a judge seems further away.
I see many doing lots of things that I do not like or approve of but thats life. Better that I keep a concentrated good eye on myself otherwise who knows what I might do, as I lose my sanity!
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Having only been instructing for a short time, I was anxious to see if the scare stories about 101 ways students will try to kill you was indeed accurate!! Thankfully my experiences have proved otherwise and most students have been keen, committed and serious to learn. Unlike a friend of mine who nearly had a sticky ending when a student - older, richer, over confident etc... - thought he knew it all and promptly tried to pull the mixture twice, wouldn't hand over control when instructed and finally almost made it into controlled airspace.!! Suffice to say the flight didn't last long...
I think as instructors we have a certain duty of care to ensure that those we are teaching are fully equipped to enter the big wide world of GA, safely and competently. Don't slack on checks, airmanship, accurate flying etc... Yes flying is meant to be fun but standards have to be kept to ensure it stays that way!!
I think as instructors we have a certain duty of care to ensure that those we are teaching are fully equipped to enter the big wide world of GA, safely and competently. Don't slack on checks, airmanship, accurate flying etc... Yes flying is meant to be fun but standards have to be kept to ensure it stays that way!!
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In these days of a "Compensation Culture" I bet it wouldn't belong before the solicitors got involved if there were an incident.
The failure to act upon/turning a blind eye is considered as bad as doing it yourself.
The failure to act upon/turning a blind eye is considered as bad as doing it yourself.